Corporations=Collectivism.....

[tmosley]

"I'll tell you ace, you make much more logical arguments than anyone else on this thread against my original post....."

I told you near the same stuff, buffalo. You're entirely dense and you still continue to argue your unfounded claim when ace is also schooling you. This thread should be closed.

Actually, it's because you act like a braying jackass, as I mentioned in the last thread on this subject, but you claimed that you always "won" arguments in this manner.

Perhaps it is time to rethink your debate strategy.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

My thoughts exactly, Dan. These two are ridiculous. They have the nerve to say "logical argument, but you're wrong" without anything to back it up. Honestly, it's like arguing with a ten year old...or that scene in big daddy. The delivery guy had all the cards, yet Julian still won every single time just because he said "I win."

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Actually, it's because you act like a braying jackass, as I mentioned in the last thread on this subject, but you claimed that you always "won" arguments in this manner.

Perhaps it is time to rethink your debate strategy.

All I've posted were facts. You are acting like the braying jackass for ignoring them! If you're going to be dense and stubborn, you deserve what you get!

 

[tmosley]

No, you call people morons and tell them to get out. That makes people not pay any attention to your posts. If you made your points without the personal attacks, you would be much more effective at swaying people to your side.

Perhaps it's time to rethink your debate strategy.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

No, you call people morons and tell them to get out. That makes people not pay any attention to your posts. If you made your points without the personal attacks, you would be much more effective at swaying people to your side.

Perhaps it's time to rethink your debate strategy.

You've said the same thing about 100 times and I refuse. I wouldn't have to force it into your head if you weren't so set in your ridiculous beliefs. About 4 more people who really know what they are talking about have tried to explain it to you and buffalokid, but you still persist. They don't have to take the time to explain it to you, and all you do is stick your fingers in your ears and say "no no no." How about you step into the real world and take something for what it is and learn from it. You and buffalokid are WRONG here. Yes, you are WRONG. It's a tough word to accept, but the sooner you can accept it, the better off you will be.

 

[kyleAF]

I see no problem in corporations as long as they follow the law and government doesn't intervene in their affairs. Aren't corporations inevitable, unless the State is completely communist?

A Corporation is a legal entity, which means they are created under the sanction of government by definition.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

A Corporation is a legal entity, which means they are created under the sanction of government by definition.

Yes, but if the government didn't stick its nose in the free market to begin with, an entity similar to a corporation would have arisen. The original argument was that the actions of a corporation were evil...However, buffalokid began to twist in other things when he discovered his argument was flawed. So this is where we are now.

 

[kyleAF]

After reading this thread, I agree: corporations are collective in nature. Many things are, though, so I think this point should be obvious to all, but apparently it isn't...

It is in the nature of a corporation to have profits privatized and losses socialized. Large CEO payouts during a good business year are prime examples. Bonuses don't have to be returned when the CEO does badly the next year, but the stockholders lose what they previously gained.

And to say that corporations aren't immune from laws is correct, though moot. Lobbyists exist to bend the laws in favor of the corporations and to the detriment of smaller competitors. A mom-and-pop shop cannot likely afford a team of lawyers to find and exploit tax code loopholes, while a giant corporation easily can (and does!).

I don't think that they are bad per se, but this is a truth if anything is:

People will always flock to power and attempt to play dirty. It's more than naive to think that government can ever be completely disinterested and not influenced by special interests. It's inevitable. And that's how / why corporations have become entirely dangerous to us and our ways of life. They pursue their bottom line and move / alter markets in ways that skew the normal equilibria of Human Action.

EDIT: Bottom line: yes, the problem is the connection between government largesse and corporate lobbying. But it takes two to tango in this case. The government AND corporations are nothing more than groups of individuals. The only fundamental difference is the legal right to monopolize force, but if they're working together, then I submit that the distinction is trivial in effect.

Both can very easily be Leviathan.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I agree, it does take two to tango. However, not all corporations will lobby. It's like you asking someone to jump off a bridge. If he does it, is it your fault? No, he made the decision. Sure he didn't have to do it and you couldn't make him, but he chose to. It's the elected officials that are subsidizing them, and you have the power to rip them out of office.

 

[kyleAF]

I agree, it does take two to tango. However, not all corporations will lobby. It's like you asking someone to jump off a bridge. If he does it, is it your fault? No, he made the decision. Sure he didn't have to do it and you couldn't make him, but he chose to. It's the elected officials that are subsidizing them, and you have the power to rip them out of office.

Yes, this is true.

Unfortunately the problems we face are far more complicated than "corporate welfare". We have an entrenched system in place which is difficult to address.

That's how Leviathan persists, not because most people like it, but because inertia carries it onward, and a force great enough to stop it is very difficult to muster among the masses all at once. In fact, history shows it to be nearly impossible.

 

[tmosley]

You've said the same thing about 100 times and I refuse. I wouldn't have to force it into your head if you weren't so set in your ridiculous beliefs. About 4 more people who really know what they are talking about have tried to explain it to you and buffalokid, but you still persist. They don't have to take the time to explain it to you, and all you do is stick your fingers in your ears and say "no no no." How about you step into the real world and take something for what it is and learn from it. You and buffalokid are WRONG here. Yes, you are WRONG. It's a tough word to accept, but the sooner you can accept it, the better off you will be.

My God, you are dense.

I'm wasn't talking about your point, I was talking about how you presented it. Buffalokid agreed with the other person who posted basically what you have been saying the whole time, and you were whining about it. I told you that the reason he refused to take your point was because you called him and others names, told him to get out, and generally acted like a braying jackass. No-one wants an ass like you to be right, even if you are, so they will refuse to take your point, even if it were logical.

The short version: stop acting like an asshole, and more people will pay attention to you.

I am not disputing ANY of your points in this post, nor was I in either of my last two.

Perhaps it's time to rethink your debate strategy. <---Repeated for emphasis.

 

[danberkeley]

Here is an article to disprove buffalokid's argument that shareholders are powerless against their executives. Shell investors rebel over retention pay

 

[rockandrollsouls]

He'll try to combat that irrefutable evidence with more nonsense. If he could figure out google he would have found the article. Dan, you've contributed a great deal to this thread, but it sucks when people don't take any of it seriously. I've been harsh and you've been nice, yet he doesn't listen to either of us. Let him hurt in the long run, and then, maybe he'll learn. People need to swallow their pride when they are wrong rather than persist...buffalokid won't ever admit it.

And Tmosley, would you SHUTUP if you don't have anything to contribute to the thread? I'm not here to have you on my back telling me how to debate a point. You aren't contributing anything at all. No facts, no evidence, just your biased unsupported opinion and judgment of me.

Wah wah, I'm mean, I'm a jerk, etc etc. But you know what? I'm right, I know what's right, and if you don't want to take the hard medicine YOU can suffer. By realizing this information you only help yourself; I've already benefited from it. I'd rather been an intelligent, savvy jerk-off than a timid, clueless sheeple any time of the day.

 

[buffalokid777]

"I'll tell you ace, you make much more logical arguments than anyone else on this thread against my original post....."

I told you near the same stuff, buffalo. You're entirely dense and you still continue to argue your unfounded claim when ace is also schooling you. This thread should be closed.

I would disagree with this as ace actually puts out intelligent coments without name calling......I ignore people who resort to name calling as irrelevant.....so in my mind ace's opinion holds more weight in my mind since he uses honest tactics by tring to convince people his opinion rather than bullying people into his opinion by calling them names which is your modus operandi....I never hold much regard for people who try to sway opinion through the neocon tactics you use.....I don't claim to know everything....I put a topic out to discuss logically....many people have put out much logical comment without resorting to namecalling.......I can be swayed....I don't know if i'm right.....and I actually do want to learn if I am wrong....Ace simply presented his opinion without name calling....and some of what he says makes sense....some of what he does say I have additional concerns and will voice a reply based on my additional concerns.....you rocknrollsouls comes out of the gate calling people commies etc....which makes me lessen your opinion in my mind...as if you were right you could resort to explaining why you are right rather than trying to discredit anyone who disagrees with you....

For wrong or right I think Ace is much more intelluctualy honest and I would much rather discuss what I seek to discuss with people like him than people like you.....

This thread isn't about who's right and wrong....it is about discussing concerns with different people and seeing various views on the subject....this is learning.....I have ideas and concerns....If the views I have drawn through them are incorrect.....I wish to be convinced so I can learn.....But your tactics rockandrollsouls have already disqualified your opinions in my mind unless you change your tactics.....convince me of your opinion....don't try to shame me into your opinion by name calling...because I will simply ignore your argument as intellectually dishonest....because you seem to have an agenda....

 

[buffalokid777]

And Tmosley, would you SHUTUP if you don't have anything to contribute to the thread? I'm not here to have you on my back telling me how to debate a point. You aren't contributing anything at all. No facts, no evidence, just your biased unsupported opinion and judgment of me.

Wah wah, I'm mean, I'm a jerk, etc etc. But you know what? I'm right, I know what's right, and if you don't want to take the hard medicine YOU can suffer. By realizing this information you only help yourself; I've already benefited from it. I'd rather been an intelligent, savvy jerk-off than a timid, clueless sheeple any time of the day.

And this my example of what I said in the last post as why your opinion is moot....

Instead of breaking down what he said and saying WHY you disagree (like ace did with me)....you simply tell Tmosley to "SHUT UP"......why should we care what your opinion is when you use this tactic....AceNZ and Tmosley have diametrically opposed views.....yet ace didn't feel the need to tell him to shut up or me.....

It seems some of us are actually trying to have a rational discussion for group learning....while you only seek to impose your view on those who disagree....you will find that method doesn't work here....as most of us here are smart enough to think for ourselves and ask questions and have an intelligent discussion rather than let someone bully us into what they should believe by name calling.......which is your tactic for debate, which is neocon in nature, and the #1 reason people like myself hate the neocons.....

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I'm not going through it again you can both "shutup" because neither of you are contributing anything of value. All you do is spew your biased unsupported opinion. No evidence, no articles, no statistics. If you don't have anything to back it up, don't say anything. And now I'm a "neocon" because of something that hurt your feelings? Call a wahmbulance. The fact of the matter is you are NOT having a rational discussion. You started a thread with nothing but a ridiculous opinion. You can't debate someone who believes their opinion is a fact. You don't back it up, someone pokes a hole in your theory, and you twist it around without providing evidence again. This is the picture I see. A child with all of the proof in front of him, but he's got his fingers in his ears screaming "No no no no you're wrong!" and when the adult grabs him by the shoulders and says" Listen!" you say wahh you're being mean. Come on, man. This stuff doesn't fly in the real world.

After seeing on these various threads the defense of corporations......by people who supposedly hate collectivism....

Corporations are simply financial collectivism in my views.......

It is a group of investors stamping out individual proprietors......through superior capital

Prove me wrong.......

All the proof is in your original post. Simply a bullheaded, asinine statement to make. You don't understand the free market, you don't know the meaning of collectivism (you use it as a buzzword), and you make up financial terms like "superior capital." In fact, if you google "financial collectivism" this thread is the only thing that comes up! Congratulations, you've coined a new term! You're JUST MAKING STUFF UP! Could anything be a recipe for a larger disaster than this? I might as well go on a surgeons board and say "I think the sack next do the heart do-hickey is what pumps the red life juice through a person prove me wrong" Forgive my lack of tact here, but...DUDE, are you that ignorant?!

 

[tmosley]

I'm not going through it again you can both "shutup" because neither of you are contributing anything of value. All you do is spew your biased unsupported opinion. No evidence, no articles, no statistics. If you don't have anything to back it up, don't say anything.

Actually, why don't YOU shut up? Or better yet, leave the forums. All you do is make everyone else here look bad, because you refuse to stop being an internet tough guy. I mean really, is there a way to block out posts by a particular user? If there is, I would block you in a heart beat.

You are a loser, and you will lose EVERY SINGLE DEBATE you ever participate even if the other guy has no valid points and you have the absolute truth on your side, because nobody likes being wrong, and it's even harder to accept that you are wrong when the other guy is a smug little tough guy who thinks he's perfect.

Perhaps it's time to rethink your debate strategy.

 

[buffalokid777]

I'm not going through it again you can both "shutup" because neither of you are contributing anything of value. All you do is spew your biased unsupported opinion. No evidence, no articles, no statistics. If you don't have anything to back it up, don't say anything. And now I'm a "neocon" because of something that hurt your feelings? Call a wahmbulance. The fact of the matter is you are NOT having a rational discussion. You started a thread with nothing but a ridiculous opinion. You can't debate someone who believes their opinion is a fact. You don't back it up, someone pokes a hole in your theory, and you twist it around without providing evidence again. This is the picture I see. A child with all of the proof in front of him, but he's got his fingers in his ears screaming "No no no no you're wrong!" and when the adult grabs him by the shoulders and says" Listen!" you say wahh you're being mean. Come on, man. This stuff doesn't fly in the real world.

Who are you to decide if we are contributing anything of value?

If others convince us through rational discourse...the value is teaching me where I was wrong.......so I will learn....that is the value.....

I have many times on this thread stated where this argument came from.....I think it holds weight (though ace has so far swayed my opinion that the theorem might need adjustments), now I want to hear others views on it....since I only seek to learn.....rockandrollsouls.....most of us can plainly see you don't seek to learn or discuss......simply to impose your views on those who disagree with you.....

So I will seek out all opinions that can reasonablly tell them without resorting to intelluctually dishonest discourse like you deal in.....

I just want a rational discussion to learn.....not to impose my views on others.....

And I have already seen much rational discussion (NOT YOU) on this thread that makes me wish to ask new questions....and I will....because I simply seek to learn.....not impose my view on others......

You seem to wish to impose your views on ANYONE who disagrees......

And I think the more people who discuss a subject, the more the discussion will lead to learning......

Is not a three ply cord much harder to break than a 1 ply cord?

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Or you can actually post relevant information or statistics relevant to the thread. You can't debate someone who fabricates something in their own mind and claims it as fact. I am not being a tough guy at all, I'm simply calling both of you on your fake, made up theories here. Don't talk about something you don't understand, it's that simple. There's nothing for me to debate except why some of the words you use aren't real terms or phrases, the things you claim aren't happening, or the statements you make are false. I'm not arguing information because you haven't posted anything I'm trying to get you to back up your opinion and BOTH of you have yet to do so.

This is the deal, BACK UP YOUR SMALL TALK INSTEAD OF SPEWING OPINIONATED GARBAGE. If either of you had the decency to support something in a scientific manner this wouldn't be going on.

Again, call a wahmbulance if your feelings are hurt. You shouldn't have expected to post such an IGNORANT statement (and yes, it is ignorant) and walk away with someone calling you on it.

 

[buffalokid777]

I'm not going through it again you can both "shutup" because neither of you are contributing anything of value. All you do is spew your biased unsupported opinion. No evidence, no articles, no statistics. If you don't have anything to back it up, don't say anything. And now I'm a "neocon" because of something that hurt your feelings? Call a wahmbulance. The fact of the matter is you are NOT having a rational discussion. You started a thread with nothing but a ridiculous opinion. You can't debate someone who believes their opinion is a fact. You don't back it up, someone pokes a hole in your theory, and you twist it around without providing evidence again. This is the picture I see. A child with all of the proof in front of him, but he's got his fingers in his ears screaming "No no no no you're wrong!" and when the adult grabs him by the shoulders and says" Listen!" you say wahh you're being mean. Come on, man. This stuff doesn't fly in the real world.



All the proof is in your original post. Simply a bullheaded, asinine statement to make. You don't understand the free market, you don't know the meaning of collectivism (you use it as a buzzword), and you make up financial terms like "superior capital." In fact, if you google "financial collectivism" this thread is the only thing that comes up! Congratulations, you've coined a new term! You're JUST MAKING STUFF UP! Could anything be a recipe for a larger disaster than this? I might as well go on a surgeons board and say "I think the sack next do the heart do-hickey is what pumps the red life juice through a person prove me wrong" Forgive my lack of tact here, but...DUDE, are you that ignorant?!

as I said...."PROVE ME WRONG" I SIMPLY WANTED TO HEAR OPPOSING VOICES TO DECIDE IF THIS IS CORRECT OR INCORRECT....I WANT TO LEARN....

But you obviously would rather impose your agenda on me rather than convince me I'm wrong.........