Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861

[osan]

Originally Posted by Travlyr
Article I. Section 10. of the U.S. Constitution
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation;

This isn't a defense of the "right of secession", but once the states had seceded, that Article and Section arguably didn't apply.

It never applied in the first place because "states" as such, do not exist. I invite any who disagree to demonstrate the existence per se of a state.

I am a sovereign being.

I kowtow to no man, group thereof, nor idol nor graven image of anyone's making save those of my own choosing. I answer only to the authority of my own conscience and to none other.

As such and because I never consented to the laws of this or any other arbitrarily constituted subdivision of humanity, I stand apart from them and withhold my permission to be governed by them at an time, for any reason. That such groups possess the material power to destroy me or otherwise violate my inherent sovereignty, it does not follow that they hold the right to do so. When they proceed in violation of my sovereign right to act as I will, they do so with no moral authority whatsoever. Rather, they act only with their collective brute force upon which they have sloppily pinned a shabby and threadbare veneer of lies, falsely claiming such authority to compel and punish those who have committed no crime but who have merely acted contrary to the corrupt, capricious, and non-authoritative will of a band of criminals.

The common behavior of such mobs as they mete their "justice" is analogous to adults being punished by a two year-old in the throes of a wildly out of control tantrum.

 

[torchbearer]

if an unspeakable & unsaid "worse than FDR" cataclysmic event almost happened in 1933
and this is very like the "worse than tennessee andy" potential tin horn event in 1865 that
almost actually happened, we as a union managed to survive abe lincoln an' herbert hoover.

I don't think the question of- if we survived abe lincoln has been settled yet. the string of this future is yet unfolding. does empire survive or does is die like all others?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

It never applied in the first place because "states" as such, do not exist. I invite any who disagree to demonstrate the existence per se of a state.

I am a sovereign being.

I kowtow to no man, group thereof, nor idol nor graven image of anyone's making save those of my own choosing. I answer only to the authority of my own conscience and to none other.

As such and because I never consented to the laws of this or any other arbitrarily constituted subdivision of humanity, I stand apart from them and withhold my permission to be governed by them at an time, for any reason. That such groups possess the material power to destroy me or otherwise violate my inherent sovereignty, it does not follow that they hold the right to do so. When they proceed in violation of my sovereign right to act as I will, they do so with no moral authority whatsoever. Rather, they act only with their collective brute force upon which they have sloppily pinned a shabby and threadbare veneer of lies, falsely claiming such authority to compel and punish those who have committed no crime but who have merely acted contrary to the corrupt, capricious, and non-authoritative will of a band of criminals.

The common behavior of such mobs as they mete their "justice" is analogous to adults being punished by a two year-old in the throes of a wildly out of control tantrum.

+rep Pay attention to this folks^^ It's dead on.

 

[Travlyr]

I have often thought that Lincoln perhaps served his role and was killed because of who he was. He would have stood in the way of corruption. That much can be discerned by his Second Inaugural Address and the fact that he stood up to the Radical Republicans by vetoing the "Wade-Davis Bill."

"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations." - A. Lincoln

lincoln had served his role. if you know his history, you know the real movers were his cabinet, filled with all those opponents he supposedly bested at the GOP convention. I see a grand deal were lincoln become the lout and the real power brokers get the government they always wanted. maybe lincoln was just a simple farm boy who wanted to play in a big boy's world.. and became the biggest sucker of them all.
but its doesn't change what happened.

Lincoln didn't just supposedly best his opponents at the GOP convention. Read the 1860 GOP convention minutes for yourself. "Thunders of applause, and great confusion." upon Lincoln's selection. From pages 108 to 120.

Yet, it does change what happens. It was not Lincoln's war. Lincoln is taking a beating by people in the liberty movement for starting a war he didn't start and for killing hundreds of thousands of people when in fact the entire country was ready for war to settle the issue of slavery. Lincoln was a peaceful principled man of honor who was duty bound by sworn oath to defend the Union from invasion by enemies both foreign and domestic.

In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it." - Abraham Lincoln

 

[Travlyr]

It never applied in the first place because "states" as such, do not exist. I invite any who disagree to demonstrate the existence per se of a state.

I am a sovereign being.

I kowtow to no man, group thereof, nor idol nor graven image of anyone's making save those of my own choosing. I answer only to the authority of my own conscience and to none other.

As such and because I never consented to the laws of this or any other arbitrarily constituted subdivision of humanity, I stand apart from them and withhold my permission to be governed by them at an time, for any reason. That such groups possess the material power to destroy me or otherwise violate my inherent sovereignty, it does not follow that they hold the right to do so. When they proceed in violation of my sovereign right to act as I will, they do so with no moral authority whatsoever. Rather, they act only with their collective brute force upon which they have sloppily pinned a shabby and threadbare veneer of lies, falsely claiming such authority to compel and punish those who have committed no crime but who have merely acted contrary to the corrupt, capricious, and non-authoritative will of a band of criminals.

The common behavior of such mobs as they mete their "justice" is analogous to adults being punished by a two year-old in the throes of a wildly out of control tantrum.

How about you go down to your local county court house and bang your head against the wall until you see it?

 

[Aratus]

if half the reason the confederacy came into being is that jefferson davis was a very intelligent man, and had a high opinion of john c. calhoun, then
we are not surprised that quite a few of his fellow senators went to their state capitols that winter and got up a rough consensus from their fellow
citizens. he had the ability to wait a decade or to act. the decision by abe lincoln and then andrew johnson not to try him in any hurry but to secure
his person is reflective of the role he had inside the confederate government. andrew johnson tries to do roughly what he thought abe lincoln might
have done, william seward was almost the GOP nominee in 1860 so his being sec' of state is no fluke. in 1868 w.seward backs a.johnson over e.stanton!

 

[Aratus]

osan is a john locke social compact purist and Travlyr know all gov't is ultimately local.

 

[osan]

How about you go down to your local county court house and bang your head against the wall until you see it?

See what, exactly?

 

[torchbearer]

I have often thought that Lincoln perhaps served his role and was killed because of who he was. He would have stood in the way of corruption. That much can be discerned by his Second Inaugural Address and the fact that he stood up to the Radical Republicans by vetoing the "Wade-Davis Bill."





Lincoln didn't just supposedly best his opponents at the GOP convention. Read the 1860 GOP convention minutes for yourself. "Thunders of applause, and great confusion." upon Lincoln's selection. From pages 108 to 120.

Yet, it does change what happens. It was not Lincoln's war. Lincoln is taking a beating by people in the liberty movement for starting a war he didn't start and for killing hundreds of thousands of people when in fact the entire country was ready for war to settle the issue of slavery. Lincoln was a peaceful principled man of honor who was duty bound by sworn oath to defend the Union from invasion by enemies both foreign and domestic.

so, the national delegates weren't in the know. that isn't suprising. they voted as their caucus leaders told them. the deal seems pretty obvious as his opponents composed of his entire administration. have you been to a national convetion for ultimate power? we just had one recently. it should give you some insight into other conventions. this year wasn't the exception. good people have been getting duped for a long time.

 

[jay_dub]

Can anyone verify what DiLorenzo says is true? It looks to me like DiLorenzo is flat out lying. The South fired the first shots. The Confederate Secretary of War admits to starting the war.





Anybody at all? I have not yet been able to find accurate information to support DiLorenzo's claim on naval commander Gustavus Fox's mission where the claim is that Lincoln sent warships to Fort Sumter. Best I can find is the merchant ship (Star of the West) sent by President Buchanan in January to supply Major Anderson with supplies, and the above letter from A. Lincoln to Capt. G.V. Fox indicating sending provisions but not men or arms.

Here are some telegraph dispatches from just prior to the firing on Fort Sumter. They show that the South was not tricked into firing....rather they were informed by Lincoln that the fort would be resupplied, by force if necessary.

Really, what is a State to do in the face of this? There were 2 choices.....defend their sovereign territory or capitulation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Number 1.
Charleston, April 8.
To L. P. Walker, Secretary of War.
An authorized messenger from President Lincoln just informed Governor Pickens3 and myself that provisions will be sent to Fort Sumpter[sic], peaceably, or otherwise by force.
[Signed.] G. T. BEAUREGARD.

Number 2.
Montgomery, April 10.
To General G. T. Beauregard, Charleston:
If you have no doubt of the authorized character of the agent who communicated to you the intention of the Washington Government to supply Fort Sumter by force, you will at once demand its evacuation, and if this is refused, proceed in such manner as you may determine to reduce it. Answer.
[Signed.] L. P. WALKER

L. P. Walker

Number 3.
Charleston, April 10.
To L. P. Walker, Secretary of War:
The demand will be made to-morrow at 12 o’clock.
[Signed.] G. T. BEAUREGARD.

[No. four not received.]

Number 5.
Charleston, April 10.
To L. P. Walker, Montgomery:
The reasons are special for 12 o’clock.
[Signed.] G. T. BEAUREGARD.

Number 6.
Charleston, April 11.
To L. P. Walker, Montgomery:
Demand sent at two o’clock. Allowed til 6 o’clock to answer.
[Signed.] G. T. BEAUREGARD.

Number 7.
Montgomery, April 11.
To Gen Beauregard, Charleston:
Telegraph the reply to Maj. Anderson.3
[Signed.] L. P. WALKER.

Number 8.
Charleston, April 11.
To L. P. Walker, Montgomery:
Major Anderson replies: “I have the honor to acknowledge the reception of your communication, demanding the evacuation of this fort, and to say in reply thereto that it is a demand which I regret: but my sense of honor and my obligations to my government prevent my compliance.” He addes: “Propably[sic] I will await the first shot, and, if you do not batter us to pieces, we will be starved out in a few days.” Answer.
[Signed.] G. T. Beauregard.

Number 9.
Montgomery, April 11.
To Gen. Beauregard, Charleston:
We do not desire needlessly to bombard Fort Sumter if Major Anderson will state the time at which as indicated by him he will evacuate, and agree that in the mean time he will not use his guns against us, unless ours should be employed against Fort Sumter. You can thus avoid the effusion of blood. If this order should be unequivocally refused, reduce the Fort as your judgement decides to be the most practicable.
L. P. Walker, Secretary of War.

Number 10.
Charleston, April 11.
To L. P. Walker, Montgomery:
He would not consent. I write to-day.
Beauregard.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few news articles from the period.......

Charleston, April 11.
General Beauregard at two o’clock to-day demanded the surrender of Fort Sumpter [sic], which Major Anderson declined. It is currently reported that negotiations will be opened tomorrow between Anderson and Beauregard.

Special despatches received at Washington to-day assert that both [Forts] Pickens and Sumpter [sic] will be attacked, but they doubt if war follows.

A Montgomery despatch to-day says it has been resolved to attack the two forts immediately.

Three steamers were seen off the coast yesterday for a long time. Anderson fired a signal gun this morning. The attack of Fort Sumter is momentarily expected. Business is suspended. It is rumored that the fight will commence at eight o’clock this evening, unless Major Anderson surrenders.

The steamer Harriet Lane4 is off the bar. Thousands of persons are lining the shores to witness the attack.

Charleston, April 11.
Interceptd despatches disclose the fact that Mr. Fox,5 who had been allowed to visit Maj. Anderson, on pledge that his puprose [sic] was pacific, employed his opportunity to devise a plan for supplying the fort by force, and that this plan had been adopted by the Washington government, and was in progress of exicution.[sic]

Washington, April 11.
[Herald Correspondence.]—The men of the West Point flying artillery, now in Washington have received orders to keep their revolvers constantly loaded, to be ready for immediate action.

Part of the volunteers will be stationed at the bridge across the Potomac, so as to defend it from an invading force. Nearly one thousand men are now enrolled for regular service from the ranks of the district militia. Those who refused to take the oath of allegiance were marched back to the armory disarmed, and their names stricken from the roll. Hisses from the spectators accompanied their departure from the parade ground.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



WASHINGTON, May 1st, 1861.

Capt. G.V. Fox:

My Dear Sir, I sincerely regret that the failure of the late attempt to provision Fort Sumter should be the source of any annoyance to you. The practicability of your plan was not, in fact, brought to a test. By reason of a gale, well known in advance to be possible, and not improbable, the tugs, an essential part of the plan, never reached the ground ; while, by an accident, for which you were in nowise responsible, and possibly I, to some extent, was, you were deprived of a war-vessel, with her men, which you deemed of great importance to the enterprise.

I most cheerfully and truthfully declare that the failure of the undertaking has not lowered you a particle, while the qualities you developed in the effort have greatly heightened you in my estimation. For a daring and dangerous enterprise of a similar character, you would, to-day, be the man of all my acquaintances whom I would select. You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Fort Sumter, even if it should fail ; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result.

Very truly your friend, A. LINCOLN.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Union fleet to Charleston


Vessels of War
Steam sloop-of-war Pawnee, Captain S. C. Rowan, 10 guns and 200 men. The Pawnee sailed from Washington, with sealed orders, on the morning of Saturday, April 6.
Steam sloop-of-war Powhatan, Captain E. D. Porter, 11 guns and 275 men. The Powhatan sailed from the Brookyln Navy Yard on Saturday afternoon April 6.
Revenue cutter Harriet Lane, Captain J. Faunce, 5 guns and 96 men. On Saturday, April 6, the Harriet Lane exchanged her revenue flag for the United States navy flag, denoting her transfer to the Government naval service, and sailed suddenly on last Monday morning, with sealed orders.

The Steam Transports
Atlantic, 358 troops, composed of Companies A and M of the Second artillery, Companies C and H of the Second infantry, and Company A of sappers and miners from West Point. The Atlantic sailed from the steam at 5 o'clock on Sunday morning last, April 7.
Baltic, 160 troops, composed of Companies C and D, recruits, from Governor's and Bedloe's islands. The Baltic sailed from Quarantine at 7o'clock on Tuesday morning last, April 9.
Illinois, 300 troops, composed of Companies B, E, F, G and H, and a detachment from Company D, all recruits from Governor's and Bedloe's Islands, together with two companies of the Second infantry, from Fort Hamilton. The Illinois sailed from Quarantine on Tuesday morning at 6 o'clock.

The Steamtugs
Two steamtugs, with a Government official on each, bearing sealed dispatches, were also sent. The Yankee left New York on Monday evening, 8th, and the Uncle Ben on Tuesday night.

The Launches
Nearly thirty of these boats-whose services are most useful in effecting a landing of troops over shoal water, and for attacking a discharging battery when covered with sand and gunny bags- have been taken out by the Powhatan and by the steam transports Atlantic, Baltic and Illinois.

Recapitulation
Vessels Guns Men
Sloop-of-war Pawnee 10 200
Sloop-of-war Powhatan 11 275
Cutter Harriet Lane 5 96
Steam Transport Atlantic 353
Steam Transport Baltic 160
Steam Transport Illinois 300
Steamtug Yankee Ordinary Crew
Steamtug Uncle Ben Ordinary Crew
Total number of vessels 8
Total number of guns (for marine service) 26
Total number of men and troops 1,380

Link with more info and pictures of the ships (click on any ship's name):

http://myathenaeum.com/simpson/page126.html

 

[Travlyr]

so, the national delegates weren't in the know. that isn't suprising. they voted as their caucus leaders told them. the deal seems pretty obvious as his opponents composed of his entire administration. have you been to a national convetion for ultimate power? we just had one recently. it should give you some insight into other conventions. this year wasn't the exception. good people have been getting duped for a long time.

I have not been to a national convention, but I suppose that things are much different today than they were in 1860. In those days almost everyone participated. Every eligible voter voted. Even the Lincoln-Douglas debates drew huge crowds.

 

[torchbearer]

I have not been to a national convention, but I suppose that things are much different today than they were in 1860. In those days almost everyone participated. Every eligible voter voted. Even the Lincoln-Douglas debates drew huge crowds.

but the delegate still caucused by states, and deals still had to be made to get those delegations.

 

[torchbearer]

stated differently, if lincoln had huge natural support, no deals would be needed as all delegates came into convention loyal to him. he could surround himself with his trusted allies, but if they weren't loyal to him, he could engineer a victory by giving each faction a stake in power. but each party didn't want just a share, they wanted all. so- if they worked as a cartel, they could use lincoln to take the front. deals were made. the function of the convention and its results show it to be so.

 

[beaven]

Both the north & south were wrong. Had I lived in that age, I would have settled west away from that mess. Maybe along a river commonly crossed to charge a toll on a bridge I'd build and setup a general store.

 

[osan]

osan is a john locke social compact purist and Travlyr know all gov't is ultimately local.

Please do not characterize me as a subscriber of such absurd notions as the "social compact", another nonsensical fiction foisted upon the world by presumably well intended persons. Perhaps that was the best they could do in those days, given that the reemergence of human thought from the ancient prison of the empire mindset was in its infancy. We have had a couple of centuries in which to mull over this notion of the individual's place in the world. We have had the advantage of a hundred year's worth of mechanized slaughter and mass tyranny the likes of which not even the Romans could have imagined. Through the travails of the nearly 200 millions whose lives were brutally torn from the world by barking madmen of presumably good intentions have we been given the benefit of hindsight. Let us not dishonor the memories of those countless anonymous souls, who suffered horrors around which we can barely wrap our thoughts, by disregarding the lessons their sad and ignominious ends given to us with such free and kind generosity and caring.

Let us disabuse ourselves of these infantile stupidities, these false notions that hold such forceful appeal to the emotions of those other kind and well-meaning souls whose habits of reflection and analysis steer them away from proper and essential critical thought concerning these poisoned apples. The notion of the "social compact" is corruption of thought; it is the failure of one's reason to hold short the reigns of desire driven my emotions understandably set to run amok in the wake of horrors that no rational and decent man wishes upon the world. But as we have seen in an endless parade of historical examples, such runaway feelings must never be allowed their monarchical dictatorship for they invariably flow very directly and immediately into tyranny ostensibly foisted upon innocents for "their own good". Emotions, like fire, are a fearful master and must never be granted dominion over ourselves nor men in the whole. They must always be tempered and held at bay with the whip and the sword that only reason and the will to self-control can provide. Surely they are to be allowed their say in a matter for there is wisdom to be found in emotions, but they are insufficient in and of themselves to a life of liberty, prosperity, worthiness, and good health.

 

[Travlyr]

Here are some telegraph dispatches from just prior to the firing on Fort Sumter. They show that the South was not tricked into firing....rather they were informed by Lincoln that the fort would be resupplied, by force if necessary.

Really, what is a State to do in the face of this? There were 2 choices.....defend their sovereign territory or capitulation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Number 1.
Charleston, April 8.
To L. P. Walker, Secretary of War.
An authorized messenger from President Lincoln just informed Governor Pickens3 and myself that provisions will be sent to Fort Sumpter[sic], peaceably, or otherwise by force.
[Signed.] G. T. BEAUREGARD.

Thanks. In light of Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, his memo seems reasonable to me. It was a Union fort and resupplying it rather than letting men starve was the right thing to do. The Confederate army knew that if they fired on Fort Sumter, then that act of aggression would start the war. The Confederacy, if they wanted to live in peace, could have simply let the fort resupply since it wasn't theirs anyway. Lincoln had already told them, "The Government will not assail you."

 

[Aratus]

osan... i stand corrected. john locke was a typical 1700s whig theorist. he actually was rather loyal to william III when i think about it.

 

[klamath]

From the Confederate constitution.

Sec. 10. (I) No State shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Confederate States, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions.

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

If any region in the confederacy would have attempted to leave they would have gotten their asses kicked, under the powers to "Suppress insurrections", and "rebellions".For example east TN.

In June 1861, the pro-Unionist East Tennessee Convention met in Greeneville, where it drafted a petition to the Tennessee state legislature demanding that East Tennessee be allowed to form a separate Union-aligned state.[20] The legislature rejected the petition, however, and Tennessee Governor Isham Harris ordered Confederate troops to occupy East Tennessee.

Not one place did they write into the Confederate constitution, that states, regions, or people were allowed to leave at will but in multiple places specific codification was given to owning negros. It was about OWNING people.

 

[jay_dub]

Thanks. In light of Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, his memo seems reasonable to me. It was a Union fort and resupplying it rather than letting men starve was the right thing to do. The Confederate army knew that if they fired on Fort Sumter, then that act of aggression would start the war. The Confederacy, if they wanted to live in peace, could have simply let the fort resupply since it wasn't theirs anyway. Lincoln had already told them, "The Government will not assail you."

Buchanan could find no legal basis to oppose secession. Neither could Lincoln. South Carolina by that time was a sovereign state. Fort Sumter was in its territorial waters, rendering the fort South Carolina property.

It can be seen as nothing but an act of war to attempt to re-supply the fort. Lincoln knew this, but the Carolinians firing the first shot gave Lincoln the pretext to initiate a war.

"The affair at Fort Sumter, it seems to us, has been planned as a means by which the war feeling at the North should be intensified, and the administration thus receive popular support for its policy.... If the armament which lay outside the harbor, while the fort was being battered to pieces [the US ship The Harriet Lane, and seven other reinforcement ships], had been designed for the relief of Major Anderson, it certainly would have made a show of fulfilling its mission. But it seems plain to us that no such design was had. The administration, virtually, to use a homely illustration, stood at Sumter like a boy with a chip on his shoulder, daring his antagonist to knock it off. The Carolinians have knocked off the chip. War is inaugurated, and the design of the administration accomplished." ~ The Buffalo Daily Courier, April 16, 1861.

"We have no doubt, and all the circumstances prove, that it was a cunningly devised scheme, contrived with all due attention to scenic display and intended to arouse, and, if possible, exasperate the northern people against the South.... We venture to say a more gigantic conspiracy against the principles of human liberty and freedom has never been concocted. Who but a fiend could have thought of sacrificing the gallant Major Anderson and his little band in order to carry out a political game? Yet there he was compelled to stand for thirty-six hours amid a torrent of fire and shell, while the fleet sent to assist him, coolly looked at his flag of distress and moved not to his assistance! Why did they not? Perhaps the archives in Washington will yet tell the tale of this strange proceeding.... Pause then, and consider before you endorse these mad men who are now, under pretense of preserving the Union, doing the very thing that must forever divide it." ~ The New York Evening Day-Book, April 17, 1861.

"Mr. Lincoln saw an opportunity to inaugurate civil war without appearing in the character of an aggressor." ~ Providence Daily Post, April 13 1861

"We are to have civil war, if at all, because Abraham Lincoln loves a [the Republican] party better than he loves his country.... [He] clings to his party creed, and allows the nation to drift into the whirlpool of destruction." ~ The Providence Daily Post, April 13 1861

"If this result follows – and follow civil war it must – the memory of ABRAHAM LINCOLN and his infatuated advisors will only be preserved with that of other destroyers to the scorned and execrated.... And if the historian who preserves the record of his fatal administration needs any motto descriptive of the president who destroyed the institutions which he swore to protect, it will probably be some such as this: Here is the record of one who feared more to have it said that he deserted his party than that he ruined the country, who had a greater solicitude for his consistency as a partisan than for his wisdom as a Statesman or his courage and virtue as a patriot, and who destroyed by his weakness the fairest experiment of man in self-government that the world ever witnessed." ~ The American Standard, New Jersey, April 12, 1861, the very day the South moved to reclaim Fort Sumter.

 

[Confederate]

Oh...Travlyr made a thread?

And you call me a troll? I seriously can't find a single thread where you've contributed anything worth reading.