CONSPIRACY: Was the ObamaCare disaster intentional?

And not to trade barbs with you here, but I think you underestimate the evil in the hearts of Progressives and their desire to destroy this country. I feel when they wrote this legislation, they knew exactly what the initial consequences would be, and that it was all part of their game plan.

What they didn't count on was their complete inability to get a website up and running.

I guess you are right because I don't think that even those who may have seen the inevitable failure of Obamacare as a stepping stone to socialized health care think that will "destroy this country". On the contrary, they think it is a good thing. I know lots of people who not only support Obamacare but support Candian-style socialized medicine. And none of them have "evil" in their hearts. Quite the opposite. They think they are doing good. They are just misguided.
 
Heritage thought up the insurance mandate that is the heart of the Act:
Repeating false statements doesn't make them true.

The "Heritiage" plan was one paper, by one obscure professor. The plan, though stupid and unconstitutional, did not have an individual mandate like Obamacare.

Romney and Gingrich, who both pushed it, both ran for President as conservative Republicans. Neither would call themselves progressives today.
Gingrich first talked of the plan in 1993, trying to distract the Democrats from passing Hillarycare, which was a lot like Obamacare. After becoming Speaker of the House, he never "pushed" it. As a Presidential candidate, he never "pushed" it.

I have only heard Romney describe himself as Progressive.
 
Assuming a big defeat in 2014, and being hot off the heels of that, filibustering wouldn't be wise politically for the Dems. Remember 15 or so of them have to run in 2016. I doubt they would put their own careers at risk for a President who is not only a lame duck,
I think you mistakenly project your own reasonableness onto them.

I don't think Dems would risk five cents for any person, but they'd do anything to get and keep socialized medicine. I think they have to worry about not getting party support in primary season, before they get to worry about elections. The Dem who turns on Obama, might as well try to switch parties.
Don't you think they knew they would get slaughtered in 2010 as they did? That likelihood was commonly polled and mentioned in 2010.


True, but in order to get single payer quickly, they would have to pass more legislation. It would take years for the insurance market to collapse entirely
But they all know, and Obama has stated, the TRANSITION from, not collapse of, private insurance is a 10-year deal. More importantly, the insurance companies have been quietly and effectively nationalized. They are not private. The government is writing the policies through HHS regulations. As long as they hold the WH and 40 Senators, the HHS can increasingly obsolete the capacity of the insurance companies to compete with the government. Expand Medicaid, and force people into it. In the meantime, they will blame every sob story on the absence of single payer.

To his worshipers no. But to those that are the swing voters, it does. There are some people out there that voted for him twice, supported everything he has done so far, and were all ready for Obamacare that are suddenly realizing their error in judgment. Is it a lot of people?
You are not wrong, but such thinking does not animate the Democrats. They don't run elections on facts. They win by scaring voters into thinking the Republicans are three-headed monsters, hell-bent on tax cuts for the rich whites and throwing minorities into chains. I have seen no time in the last 50 years, when the Democrat campaigns were affected by the truth.
 
Money, power, and fame drives some Humans to do whatever it takes to achieve the aforementioned.

It's a simple formula, but most don't understand it and misinterpret the intention because most don't have the same desire.

Most Humans are tools.
 
Gingrich first talked of the plan in 1993, trying to distract the Democrats from passing Hillarycare, which was a lot like Obamacare.

Spin it all you like. He supported it. And he supported it LONG after Hillarycare was dead and buried:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/20...s-he-was-wrong-to-support-individual-mandate/

Although he now admits he was wrong.

I have only heard Romney describe himself as Progressive.

You should get out more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k0fm8nJ-Wo
 
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Repeating false statements doesn't make them true.

The "Heritiage" plan was one paper, by one obscure professor. The plan, though stupid and unconstitutional, did not have an individual mandate like Obamacare.

And now, having done more research, I can state that you were wrong about this also. "The Heritage Plan", as it was called by the Heritage Foundation in a publication called the Heritage Lectures, called for mandatory health insurance for all. You can see it in the original document here:

http://americablog.com/2013/10/orig...on-created-obamacares-individual-mandate.html

The Heritage Plan also aspired to guarantee "universal access to affordable healthcare" to all citizens.

Sounds like Obamacare to me.
 
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Spin it all you like. He supported it.
"He" who, supported what "it"?

Your tube doesn't contradict any point of fact I posted. On your tube, Romney does not say as a prospective Presidential candidate that he is "conservative," or is "a conservative" or his "view are conservative" or that he will govern as a conservative. Talk about spin, he was always careful to couch it in the past.

He did say as a candidate in Massachusetts, "I am someone who is moderate and my views are progressive."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k0fm8nJ-Wo

See? He described himself as progressive. He governed as a progressive (Romneycare).
 
"He" who, supported what "it"?

Your tube doesn't contradict any point of fact I posted. On your tube, Romney does not say as a prospective Presidential candidate that he is "conservative," or is "a conservative" or his "view are conservative" or that he will govern as a conservative. Talk about spin, he was always careful to couch it in the past.

He did say as a candidate in Massachusetts, "I am someone who is moderate and my views are progressive."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k0fm8nJ-Wo

See? He described himself as progressive. He governed as a progressive (Romneycare).

Gingrich supported the prototype of Obamacare and not just to counter Hillary. Read his own words.

As for Mitt, you said you never heard him describe himself as anything but a progressive. I gave you film of him describing himself as a severe conservative.

So you were wrong on all three points you tried to make.
 
Gingrich supported the prototype of Obamacare and not just to counter Hillary. Read his own words.
I'll address Gingrich in a separate thread, hoping to avoid your confusing Gingrich and Romney again. Although, by bringing in Milton Friedman, I may be feeding the confusion.

I'll also try to point out that the Obamacare personal mandate, or "it" as you call it, was never part of the paper published by Heritage. There are actually two very different "its." One conditionally supported by Gingrich, the other opposed by Gingrich. You like to call them both "it."

Also, I have read and heard many of the words of Gingrich. For example, I read his book on health care.

The Heritage Plan also aspired to guarantee "universal access to affordable healthcare" to all citizens.
Sounds like Obamacare to me.
You quote a phrase that I cannot find in the original document. So, what it "sounds like" to you doesn't prove anything.

The original paper did not recommend that law force people to buy anything - no personal mandate, as we use the term today. The paper recommended a tax credit for buying the exact type of policy that Obamacare bans, and that people are getting cancellation notices for right now. Catastrophic only.

Maybe if you are anxious to blame people without basis, you should blame libertarians, too. Milton Friedman "supported" the plan. But like Gingrich, Friedman supported "it" conditionally, IN LIEU of something worse. Gingrich supported it in lieu of Hillarycare or Obamacare. Friedman supported it in lieu of Medicare and Medicaid.
 
The health insurance mandate in the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is an idea hatched in 1989 by Stuart M. Butler at Heritage in a publication titled "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans".[20] This was also the model for Mitt Romney's health care plan in Massachusetts. [21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_foundation#Policy_influence

In case anyone is interested in reading the Heritage source document here it is:

Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans
By Stuart M
http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/assuring-affordable-health-care-for-all-americans

5
2) Mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance. Many states now require passengers in automobiles to wear seatbelts for their own protection. Many others require anybody driving a car to have li a bility insurance. But neither the federal government nor any state requires all households to protect themselves from the potentially catastrophic costs of a serious accident or illness. Under the Heritage plan, there would be such a requirement.
 
What I cannot say: Whether this is true, but it sounds right
What I can say: I am not signing up, I am not paying fines, and I am not going to prison :).

Do you have any real estate, etc that can be confiscated?
 
In case anyone is interested in reading the Heritage source document here it is:

Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans
By Stuart M
http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/assuring-affordable-health-care-for-all-americans

52) Mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.
I am having trouble finding your except in the document. When I took your excerpted phrase "under the heritage plan."
I got "Under the Heritage proposal, a range of tax benefits would be provided to encourage working age Americans to obtain insurance when it is less expensive."
I got, " Under the Heritage plan, the federal government would give greater latitude to states..."
I got, "but those higher costs would be offset by the larger credits under the Heritage proposal."
 
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I am having trouble finding your except in the document. When I took your excerpted phrase "under the heritage plan."
I got "Under the Heritage proposal, a range of tax benefits would be provided to encourage working age Americans to obtain insurance when it is less expensive."
I got, " Under the Heritage plan, the federal government would give greater latitude to states..."
I got, "but those higher costs would be offset by the larger credits under the Heritage proposal."

If you go to this link

http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/assuring-affordable-health-care-for-all-americans

and activate the search feature in your browser (control + F in mine) and type the word MANDATE in and then search you will then find section 5 point 2. There you will find the paragraphs that I cut and pasted.

It's fascinating that you typed the following without apparently ever having read the actual Heritage source document. But that's the Internet in 2013- millions and millions of "experts" all sure that what is in their head is the absolute truth.

Originally Posted by Woods (Post 29): The original paper did not recommend that law force people to buy anything - no personal mandate, as we use the term today. The paper recommended a tax credit for buying the exact type of policy that Obamacare bans, and that people are getting cancellation notices for right now. Catastrophic only.
 
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If you go to this link
http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/assuring-affordable-health-care-for-all-americans
and activate the search feature in your browser (control + F in mine) and type the word MANDATE in and then search you will then find section 5 point 2. There you will find the paragraphs that I cut and pasted.
It's fascinating that you typed the following without apparently ever having read the actual Heritage source document. But that's the Internet in 2013- millions and millions of "experts" all sure that what is in their head is the absolute truth.
Thanks, I found it now. I don't know why the search function wasn't hitting the text before.

As a matter of fact, I did read the document both in 1993 and 2012 when it was an issue. That is why I knew immediately that equating it to Obamacare is bogus.

Internet 2013 is apparently also a place where "experts" call two fundamentally different premises by the same name (mandate) and declare the different premises the same.

Under the Heritage idea, if a person without insurance exercises his option to use the credit, withheld income that was going to Uncle Sam becomes available for use to buy insurance. It is misleading to use the word "mandate" to describe both a tax credit and a law that forces unwanted, unneeded purchase without the clarification I provide.

It is the Progressive media that began the myth that Obamacare was a conservative idea, when Obamacare is as far as conservative as something can get.
 
There is no way the GOP takes the senate. None period. Most people continue to blame all of this on bush.

2nd. In tn 1/1/14 you can no longer buy an individual policy except from Humana. They'll drop out soon. We basically have a single payer system already. All they need to do is promise to "help" the middle class by saving them from the draconian employer plans.
 
Thanks, I found it now. I don't know why the search function wasn't hitting the text before.

As a matter of fact, I did read the document both in 1993 and 2012 when it was an issue. That is why I knew immediately that equating it to Obamacare is bogus.

Internet 2013 is apparently also a place where "experts" call two fundamentally different premises by the same name (mandate) and declare the different premises the same.

Under the Heritage idea, if a person without insurance exercises his option to use the credit, withheld income that was going to Uncle Sam becomes available for use to buy insurance. It is misleading to use the word "mandate" to describe both a tax credit and a law that forces unwanted, unneeded purchase without the clarification I provide.

It is the Progressive media that began the myth that Obamacare was a conservative idea, when Obamacare is as far as conservative as something can get.

The Heritage "idea" could not be more clear when it comes to mandated health insurance.


You claim to have read this document twice but you said the following:

Woods post 29:The original paper did not recommend that law force people to buy anything - no personal mandate, as we use the term today. The paper recommended a tax credit for buying the exact type of policy that Obamacare bans, and that people are getting cancellation notices for right now. Catastrophic only.

And as for the tax credits, the Heritage "idea" states the following:

1) Change the tax treatment of health care. The plan would treat all health care benefits provided by employers as taxable income to the employee. Thus it would end the personal income tax exclusion for company-based health plans. But the plan would then provide above-the-line tax credits directly to households to protect them from the unreasonable financial impact of health insurance or out-of-pocket health costs .

Specifically, a 20 percent credit would be provided for all insurance purchases that met basic requirements (such as covering catastrophic health costs). In addition, a steeply rising credit would be available for out-of-pocket health care spending by a family. This credit is related to health care costs as a percentage of family income. Ile higher expenditures were as a percentage of family income, the higher the percentage credit. In addition, a credit would be available for households to purchase insurance or pay for health care costs for dependents..blah blah more "conservative" rhetoric...​

You stated: "Under the Heritage idea, if a person without insurance exercises his option to use the credit,.."

A person without insurance could not claim a credit for insurance

The Heritage "idea" is the basis for the mandate in Obamacare and Romneycare. It's right there for everyone to read. Forbes agrees. So does "conservative" Newt Gingrich.

The health insurance mandate in the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is an idea hatched in 1989 by Stuart M. Butler at Heritage in a publication titled "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans".[21] This was also the model for Mitt Romney's health care plan in Massachusetts. [22]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_foundation#Policy_influence

How the Heritage Foundation, a Conservative Think Tank, Promoted the Individual Mandate
Avik Roy 10/20/2011 Forbes.com
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...e-think-tank-invented-the-individual-mandate/

James Taranto, who writes the Wall Street Journal’s excellent “Best of the Web” column, put forth a lengthy and informative discussion yesterday on the conservative origins of the individual mandate, whose inclusion in Obamacare is today its most controversial feature on the Right.

This came up at Tuesday’s Western Republican Leadership Conference Debate, where Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich tussled on the question:

ROMNEY: Actually, Newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you.

GINGRICH: That’s not true. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

ROMNEY: Yes, we got it from you, and you got it from the Heritage Foundation and from you.

GINGRICH: Wait a second. What you just said is not true. You did not get that from me. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

ROMNEY: And you never supported them?

GINGRICH: I agree with them, but I’m just saying, what you said to this audience just now plain wasn’t true.

(CROSSTALK)

ROMNEY: OK. Let me ask, have you supported in the past an individual mandate?

GINGRICH: I absolutely did with the Heritage Foundation against Hillarycare.

ROMNEY: You did support an individual mandate?

ROMNEY: Oh, OK. That’s what I’m saying. We got the idea from you and the Heritage Foundation.

GINGRICH: OK. A little broader.

ROMNEY: OK.

Taranto, who employs the royal “we” in his column, writes that he was there when the Heritage Foundation was promoting the mandate:

"Heritage did put forward the idea of an individual mandate, though it predated HillaryCare by several years. We know this because we were there: In 1988-90, we were employed at Heritage as a public relations associate (a junior writer and editor), and we wrote at least one press release for a publication touting Heritage’s plan for comprehensive legislation to provide universal “quality, affordable health care.”

As a junior publicist, we weren’t being paid for our personal opinions. But we are now, so you will be the first to know that when we worked at Heritage, we hated the Heritage plan, especially the individual mandate. “Universal health care” was neither already established nor inevitable, and we thought the foundation had made a serious philosophical and strategic error in accepting rather than disputing the left-liberal notion that the provision of “quality, affordable health care” to everyone was a proper role of government. As to the mandate, we remember reading about it and thinking: “I thought we were supposed to be for freedom.”

The plan was introduced in a 1989 book, “A National Health System for America” by Stuart Butler and Edmund Haislmaier. We seem to have mislaid our copy, and we couldn’t find it online, but we did track down a 1990 Backgrounder and a 1991 lecture by Butler that outline the plan. One of its two major planks, the equalization of tax treatment for individually purchased and employer-provided health insurance, seemed sensible and unobjectionable, at least in principle.

But the other was the mandate, described as a “Health Care Social Contract” and fleshed out in the lecture.

Stuart Butler’s lecture describes what the Heritage’s mandate would look like:

“We would include a mandate in our proposal–not a mandate on employers, but a mandate on heads of households–to obtain at least a basic package of health insurance for themselves and their families. That would have to include, by federal law, a catastrophic provision in the form of a stop loss for a family’s total health outlays. It would have to include all members of the family, and it might also include certain very specific services, such as preventive care, well baby visits, and other items.

Taranto points out that the Heritage mandate was less onerous than the Obamacare one, as it focused on coverage for catastrophic illness, rather than the comprehensive health plans that Obamacare requires. “On the other hand, Butler’s vague language—‘it might also include certain very specific services…and other items’—would seem to leave the door wide open for limitless expansion,” he writes. “Whatever the particular differences, the Heritage mandate was indistinguishable in principle from the ObamaCare one. In both cases, the federal government would force individuals to purchase a product from a private company—something that Congress has never done before.”

In the multi-state Obamacare constitutional challenge before the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, in which the individual mandate was overturned, Taranto points out that the Obama Administration cited the Heritage Foundation in its defense of the individual mandate. Heritage, in response, filed an amicus brief accounting for its “prior support for a qualified mandate” and asserting that Heritage has been “consistent” in its view of the constitutionality of a mandate:

If citations to policy papers were subject to the same rules as legal citations, then the Heritage position quoted by the Department of Justice would have a red flag indicating it had been reversed. . . . Heritage has stopped supporting any insurance mandate.

Heritage policy experts never supported an unqualified mandate like that in the PPACA [ObamaCare]. Their prior support for a qualified mandate was limited to catastrophic coverage (true insurance that is precisely what the PPACA forbids), coupled with tax relief for all families and other reforms that are conspicuously absent from the PPACA. Since then, a growing body of research has provided a strong basis to conclude that any government insurance mandate is not only unnecessary, but is a bad policy option. Moreover, Heritage’s legal scholars have been consistent in explaining that the type of mandate in the PPACA is unconstitutional.​

Taranto isn’t completely buying it: “From the Butler quote above, it seems to us that the brief overstates the extent to which the proposed Heritage mandate was ‘limited,’” he writes. “But it is clear that Heritage has repudiated the idea of an individual mandate… All these years later, it pleases us that our erstwhile employer has come around.”

But Taranto speaks for many on the Right when he describes his mixed feelings about Mitt Romney’s embrace of the individual mandate:

But it worries us that Mitt Romney, who may well be the next president, lacked the instinct to be offended by the idea when it crossed his desk in Boston. To be sure, the legal distinction he makes between state and federal individual mandates is a sound and principled one. We would be hard-pressed to devise a theory under which the U.S. Constitution precludes state-level insurance mandates. And because of ObamaCare’s enduring unpopularity, we don’t even fear that Romney will flip-flop on this after taking office.

But the next time a think tank or a blue-ribbon commission comes up with an idea this bad, can we trust President Romney to reject it?​
More:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...e-think-tank-invented-the-individual-mandate/
 
I have an idea. Let's take two different ideas, call them both "individual mandate," and idiots won't be able to tell one from the other.

I have made a very salient point two or three times. None of these tired old quotes that I have seen 100 times change the essence. The Heritage plan is, in effect, a mandate without a mandate. Maybe, they should have used a better word.

Under that plan, if someone didn't buy insurance, nothing would happen to them. The money that could have gone for insurance, would just end up as taxes - just like if the person neglected to take a standard deduction or personal exemption. That's just not Obamacare, the individual "mandates" of which is causing millions to lose their policies, and will eventually "mandate" away almost everyone's policy. That would never have happened under the Heritage "mandate."

I am sorry if this is too much nuance. I did my best to simplify it.
 
Thanks, I found it now. I don't know why the search function wasn't hitting the text before.

As a matter of fact, I did read the document both in 1993 and 2012 when it was an issue. That is why I knew immediately that equating it to Obamacare is bogus.

Internet 2013 is apparently also a place where "experts" call two fundamentally different premises by the same name (mandate) and declare the different premises the same.

Under the Heritage idea, if a person without insurance exercises his option to use the credit, withheld income that was going to Uncle Sam becomes available for use to buy insurance. It is misleading to use the word "mandate" to describe both a tax credit and a law that forces unwanted, unneeded purchase without the clarification I provide.

It is the Progressive media that began the myth that Obamacare was a conservative idea, when Obamacare is as far as conservative as something can get.

Really.

So, what do you call RomneyCare?
 
Gosh I hope that's the plan. Because I can't imagine anything easier than convincing my friends, family and neighbors that turning our health care over to the people who set up that website is the height of insanity and the surest recipe for disaster.

Really.

So, what do you call RomneyCare?

I call it the reason Romney couldn't get conservatives and the conservative-leaning to care enough to go to the polls.
 
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