Congressmen Fail to Disclose "Democratic Socialists of America" Membership

Before your post gets buried in the thread, I should point out that RedStripe is a left-libertarian anarchist, IIRC, and he does not believe in any government, let alone a huge totalitarian government. From what I've read, his support for "socialist ends" refers to the social sphere, because he understands that a centralized government will never be able to do anything but oppress. A lot of people believe that "socialist ends," such as more equitable distribution of wealth and more egalitarian employment relationships, will naturally follow from greater freedom and less (or no) central control...and to a large degree, they are correct. His avatar is from here, the Alliance of the Libertarian Left, and I also believe that's where his name comes from. Long story short, he is an ally in our fight against government, even though he's coming from a somewhat different perspective regarding "why."

I think he gets into trouble here on two fronts:
  1. When we think of the word "socialism," we think of government-run socialism, and the egalitarian philosophy of idealistic socialists is just background noise. When he thinks of the word "socialism," I think it's nearly vice-versa. When we think of socialism, we tie it to the neocons and their national socialism as well, using it as a kind of "catch-all" term for central planning. For him, the concepts are separate. (I think a lot of this comes from who we better identify with: Paleoconservatives and right-libertarians tend to identify more with the middle class, whereas left-libertarians tend to identify more with the lower class/underclass. It's more a matter of perspective and focus than antagonism though.) Our different semantics cause disagreement where there should be none: None of us actually want the government to run the economy.
  2. On top of that, he likes to be a sarcastic asshole, so he brings a lot of this on himself. That's why I hesitate defending him. Still, I don't like seeing someone get ganged up on and considered an enemy, especially when most people misunderstand his actual position.

Red Stripe is generally like a George Orwell type libertarian. Well, he's no syndicalist, but he more identifies with that stripe of libertarianism, than the Spooner/Molinari/Rothbard type most of us here associate with. He is an ally, but insofar as to dismantle the State. I think Red Stripe would have more success on sites that target more egalitarian types. I consider myself more of a bourgeois type, and I would argue most here are in the same entreprenuerial/capitalist/business mindset.
 
I consider myself more of a bourgeois type, and I would argue most here are in the same entreprenuerial/capitalist/business mindset.

And therein lies the weakness of your perspective - you've ventured a long way from the common path on your intellectual journey, and I believe that the "mindset" in question is the last vestige of that comfortable conformity you have so nearly escaped from entirely. So long as you let your class interests influence your conclusions, you will never have a truly open mind.

Let me say that my biggest complaint is the recent "rebuilding" of a false paradigm by people such as FrankRep, who claim that Obama and Pelosi are socialists. It's foolish enough to suspect either of those partisan hacks to subscribe to any ideology whatever, yet FrankRep goes even farther to the edge of insanity by suggesting that Obama serves the interests of the laboring poor, that he opposes wealthy capitalists, that he wishes, above all things, to re-appropriate the wealth and capital of the richest 1% (gained over many centuries of government-sponsored exploitation and inequality) to the least among us.

Rather than deal with a complex issues, it's much easier to revert the world to a 1950s black-and-white reality. Cowboys are the good guys, Indians the bad. With "socialism" as the universal evil, the crusade seems rather easy: just root out these secret socialists!

The reality is that the United States, and most of the world, is controlled - as it has always been - by the rich. The rich write, interpret, and enforce the rules through a complex system of government and "private" institutions which are fundamentally interconnected. This is capitalism, or more specifically, state capitalism. Many of those who have and still do oppose this system are socialists, most of whom, but not all, are state socialists.

In some ways, the problems of state capitalism can be alleviated through a radically free market - that is, a market so free of the state foundations - current biased versions of contract and property law, tariffs, the money monopoly, intellectual property, transportation/communication infrastructure, subsidies, and tax-payer-funded R&D - that the massive corporate superstructure and wealth accumulation would collapse like a house built on sand (as it often does despite increasing government measures to prop up state-capitalism: see the various crises of capitalism, such as 2007-present).

Instead, of achieving these radical reforms which would result in egalitarian effects upon the distribution of wealth and capital, the noisy proponents of "free markets"* ignore virtually all of the state foundations I listed above and instead spend all of their energy attacking so-called "socialist" policies, such as a highly progressive income tax, programs for the public, etc, which are actually just centrist compromises with state-socialism. These policies, ostensibly serving egalitarian ends yet truly serving inegalitarian ends by suppressing and accommodating resistance to state-capitalism (and thereby preserving the core of state-capitalism, which is not "laissez-faire" but "protect the rich class interests") may be argued to serve the purpose of eating away at one end of the system while the radical free market reforms could be eating away at the other.

*One of the reasons I respect Ron Paul is that he, unlike most supposed advocates of free markets, makes the dismantling of some of these structural supports of corporate and concentrated wealth a policy priority. His disdain for the Federal Reserve - one of the most important of these structural supports - makes it extremely clear that he puts free markets ahead of those economic interests who typically fund and support "free market" politicians and think-tanks, none of whom would go so far as Paul in questioning this type of "structural corporate welfare."
 
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Obama and Pelosi would be considered conservatives in Europe!!!

Of course they are not socialists (if you really want to get down to it). If they are socialists, the GOP is also socialist.

When I or others call Democrats socialist it is with a certain nuance for people who I believe would understand what I mean (such as Paultards). But when certain other individuals would use it say as your average republican or tea partier, then its just a guffaw and a meaningless steak.

The Democrats ( or at least the vast majority of them including the current president) all fit the bill of social democrats (as the term is used in Britain). The GOP fits that bill too. But unlike the Donkeys, the Pachyderms have a somewhat of (until recently) insignificant portion of politicians who may pass the classical liberal paradigm. RP being the prime roast of that.

The rest are various shades of keynsian neo liberals. And when it comes to foreign policies, the difference is only one of rhetoric and tone: one sounds like a jackal the other a rabid dingo.
 
And therein lies the weakness of your perspective - you've ventured a long way from the common path on your intellectual journey, and I believe that the "mindset" in question is the last vestige of that comfortable conformity you have so nearly escaped from entirely. So long as you let your class interests influence your conclusions, you will never have a truly open mind.

Personally, I think you make a mistake by focusing too much on the distribution of wealth. Yes, the system is set up to benefit the extremely rich (top 0.1-0.01%) at everyone else's expense, and they've set themselves up to live like kings standing on our backs. That's awful of course, and among other things, the difference between the mean and median wealth and income both attest to that. However, I think you're blinded by this obvious injustice to the point where you severely underappreciate less obvious factors that have even more devastating effects on the average person's standard of living: By setting up this system where the super-rich have a larger slice of the pie, they have crippled the economy's efficiency and productivity to such a degree that the whole pie is several times smaller than it could be. For a truly prosperous society, we need to fix both problems...but attempting to fix the first directly [like state socialists do] can have a negative impact on the second for economic reasons, even aside from the elite's corruption.

Whereas your focus seems to be almost exclusively on the wealth gap, I imagine AED is more economically-focused on the system's impact on entrepreneurs and the sum total wealth being produced and circulating. When AED said he considers himself "more of a bourgeois type," I doubt he meant it literally in the class warfare sense of the term, but more in terms of where his economic focus is. Of course, I could be wrong, and he could be sitting in an antique leather chair with his top-hat and spectacles looking down on the commoners, but...I doubt it. ;)
 
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Let me say that my biggest complaint is the recent "rebuilding" of a false paradigm by people such as FrankRep, who claim that Obama and Pelosi are socialists.

Well, we all seem to have our own definitions of "socialist". To avoid excessive debate about different definitions of socialism, we all may need to be more specific. I usually think of "Oligarch Socialist", where "socialism" is just a scam. I put Obama and Pelosi in that category. Your point is that they are not "true" socialists. I wonder if there ever has been a true socialist in the ruling class? And they are not "Marxists" of any flavor (at least not at this time).

My related post:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2841144&postcount=97

There is a difference between Marxism and Socialism as it exists today. Marx would tell you that. Socialism was co-opted (or even somewhat created) by the Monarchs and Oligarchs of Europe. They wanted to retain control and power. They countered Communist ideas (where they would lose everything) with a softer Socialism, where they could remain in power, and control a government that gave away freebies, and redistributed the wealth of the lesser classes, while they kept their own. And surprise, it worked out even better than that, because that socialist government treasury turned out to be so easy for them to take a huge cut for themselves. The Oligarchy has expanded since then, but the scam is the same.
 
This could be very,very big.....and very,very fun to watch the fallout from.

v5la2x.jpg
 
Well, we all seem to have our own definitions of "socialist". To avoid excessive debate about different definitions of socialism, we all may need to be more specific. I usually think of "Oligarch Socialist", where "socialism" is just a scam. I put Obama and Pelosi in that category. Your point is that they are not "true" socialists. I wonder if there ever has been a true socialist in the ruling class? And they are not "Marxists" of any flavor (at least not at this time).

My related post:

The terms have become interchangeable. Socialism, progressivism, and liberalism are three pea(isms) in a pod.
 
Our economy is collapsing and the most important issue is labels that are put put on people. It amounts to childish name-calling. Liberal, socialist, conservative, capitalist. Is there a pedophile or thief in the mix?
 
Our economy is collapsing and the most important issue is labels that are put put on people. It amounts to childish name-calling. Liberal, socialist, conservative, capitalist. Is there a pedophile or thief in the mix?

It's the Socialist / Progressive (Woodrow Wilson, FDR) style of Government that is collapsing our economy and getting our liberties destroyed.


For Example:

Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA): Socialize the Oil Industry!

YouTube - MAXINE WATERS OUTS THE DEMS SOCIALIST AGENDA
 
Our economy is collapsing and the most important issue is labels that are put put on people. It amounts to childish name-calling. Liberal, socialist, conservative, capitalist. Is there a pedophile or thief in the mix?

Ex thief here.(I robbed banks) I was also a bit of a neo-con.
I have reformed. been rehabilitated.
It can be done. ;)
 
And therein lies the weakness of your perspective - you've ventured a long way from the common path on your intellectual journey, and I believe that the "mindset" in question is the last vestige of that comfortable conformity you have so nearly escaped from entirely. So long as you let your class interests influence your conclusions, you will never have a truly open mind.

Let me say that my biggest complaint is the recent "rebuilding" of a false paradigm by people such as FrankRep, who claim that Obama and Pelosi are socialists. It's foolish enough to suspect either of those partisan hacks to subscribe to any ideology whatever, yet FrankRep goes even farther to the edge of insanity by suggesting that Obama serves the interests of the laboring poor, that he opposes wealthy capitalists, that he wishes, above all things, to re-appropriate the wealth and capital of the richest 1% (gained over many centuries of government-sponsored exploitation and inequality) to the least among us.

Rather than deal with a complex issues, it's much easier to revert the world to a 1950s black-and-white reality. Cowboys are the good guys, Indians the bad. With "socialism" as the universal evil, the crusade seems rather easy: just root out these secret socialists!

The reality is that the United States, and most of the world, is controlled - as it has always been - by the rich. The rich write, interpret, and enforce the rules through a complex system of government and "private" institutions which are fundamentally interconnected. This is capitalism, or more specifically, state capitalism. Many of those who have and still do oppose this system are socialists, most of whom, but not all, are state socialists.

In some ways, the problems of state capitalism can be alleviated through a radically free market - that is, a market so free of the state foundations - current biased versions of contract and property law, tariffs, the money monopoly, intellectual property, transportation/communication infrastructure, subsidies, and tax-payer-funded R&D - that the massive corporate superstructure and wealth accumulation would collapse like a house built on sand (as it often does despite increasing government measures to prop up state-capitalism: see the various crises of capitalism, such as 2007-present).

Instead, of achieving these radical reforms which would result in egalitarian effects upon the distribution of wealth and capital, the noisy proponents of "free markets"* ignore virtually all of the state foundations I listed above and instead spend all of their energy attacking so-called "socialist" policies, such as a highly progressive income tax, programs for the public, etc, which are actually just centrist compromises with state-socialism. These policies, ostensibly serving egalitarian ends yet truly serving inegalitarian ends by suppressing and accommodating resistance to state-capitalism (and thereby preserving the core of state-capitalism, which is not "laissez-faire" but "protect the rich class interests") may be argued to serve the purpose of eating away at one end of the system while the radical free market reforms could be eating away at the other.

*One of the reasons I respect Ron Paul is that he, unlike most supposed advocates of free markets, makes the dismantling of some of these structural supports of corporate and concentrated wealth a policy priority. His disdain for the Federal Reserve - one of the most important of these structural supports - makes it extremely clear that he puts free markets ahead of those economic interests who typically fund and support "free market" politicians and think-tanks, none of whom would go so far as Paul in questioning this type of "structural corporate welfare."

You confuse Fascism, Mercantilism, and Capitalism, and garble them into one big lump. This to me is indicative of the egalitarian mindset, to which I am the opposite. Capitalism is in essence laissez-faire free-markets. I don't know how you can claim we have anywhere near a capitalist system, when the system has equal parts Fascism & Socialism, and a tiny little ounce of Capitalism. Our current system is not Capitalist.

I furthermore cannot see how you confuse my positions as to not disturb the current status-quo. I think the one being intellectually dishonest here is yourself. I am no socialist. I never will be. I am a capitalist, propertarian. This means I support the abolishment of all subsidies, the Federal Reserve, IRS, all taxation, all regulation, and all initiations of force & violence. Furthermore, I by nature of being a capitalist, fully support world-wide free-trade, and the voluntary exchange of all persons. How you, can think I support Fascism, is beyond silly.

I use bourgeois not in an economic class sense, but in the sense of our rational interests. Lets for example say, that in a free-market, the world would become more inegalitarian. I would have no fundamental problem with that. I do not believe that we as humans are either born egalitarian, nor is nature egalitarian. I like Rothbard, believe that egalitarianism is a revolt against nature, and like Herbert Spencer believe that the natural course of events will give rise to the most successful in a fully free-market. Any attempt to use force to bring about dis-equilibrium of nature, is itself tyrannous, and an affront to the natural liberties of the people. This is my interest -- the bourgeois interest.

Do I believe though that a free-market brings about a more egalitarian society than the one we have now? Of course. Do I care? No. This is why I classify myself in the bourgeois interest. Lest, I remind you also, that the bourgeois throughout history have been the people who have fought for the liberties of the people, fought against conformity and the status-quo, and have fought for and achieved a more productive world (which has been systematically destroyed the past 100 years).

I wonder if you have ever heard of these Free-Market institutes -- Foundation for Economic Education, Future Freedom Foundation, & the Ludwig von Mises Institute? You believe that these three institutes do not attempt to bring about a radical social reform to restore free-markets & liberty? LOL. I think you should re-think your current positions.
 
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You confuse Fascism, Mercantilism, and Capitalism, and garble them into one big lump. This to me is indicative of the egalitarian mindset, to which I am the opposite. Capitalism is in essence laissez-faire free-markets. I don't know how you can claim we have anywhere near a capitalist system, when the system has equal parts Fascism & Socialism, and a tiny little ounce of Capitalism. Our current system is not Capitalist.

I furthermore cannot see how you confuse my positions as to not disturb the current status-quo. I think the one being intellectually dishonest here is yourself. I am no socialist. I never will be. I am a capitalist, propertarian. This means I support the abolishment of all subsidies, the Federal Reserve, IRS, all taxation, all regulation, and all initiations of force & violence. Furthermore, I by nature of being a capitalist, fully support world-wide free-trade, and the voluntary exchange of all persons. How you, can think I support Fascism, is beyond silly.

I use bourgeois not in an economic class sense, but in the sense of our rational interests. Lets for example say, that in a free-market, the world would become more inegalitarian, I would have no fundamental problem with that. I do not believe that we as humans are either born egalitarian, nor is nature egalitarian. I like Rothbard, believe that egalitarianism is a revolt against nature, and like Herbert Spencer believe that the natural course of events will give rise to the most successful in a fully free-market. Any attempt to use force to bring about dis-equilibrium of nature, is itself tyrannous, and an affront to the natural liberties of the people. This is my interest -- the bourgeois interest.

Do I believe though that a free-market brings about a more egalitarian society than the one we have now? Of course. Do I care? No. This is why I classify myself in the bourgeois interest. Lest, I remind you also, that the bourgeois throughout history have been the people who have fought for the liberties of the people, fought against conformity and the status-quo, and have fought for and achieved a more productive world (which has been systematically destroyed the past 100 years).

I wonder if you have ever heard of these Free-Market institutes -- Foundation for Economic Education, Future Freedom Foundation, & the Ludwig von Mises Institute? You believe that these three institutes do not attempt to bring about a radical social reform to restore free-markets & liberty? LOL. I think you should re-think your current positions.

Thanks.
 
I do not believe that we as humans are either born egalitarian, nor is nature egalitarian.

Interesting. Wiki gives an opposing view:

: "For the approximately two hundred thousand years before the agricultural revolution, humanity existed in hunter-gatherer societies which were largely egalitarian. It is considered by some to be the natural state of society.

Studies have shown that social inequality is the cause of many social problems. A comprehensive study of major world economies revealed a correlation between social inequality and problems such as homicide, infant mortality, obesity, teenage pregnancies, emotional depression and prison population."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism
 
Interesting. Wiki gives an opposing view:

: "For the approximately two hundred thousand years before the agricultural revolution, humanity existed in hunter-gatherer societies which were largely egalitarian. It is considered by some to be the natural state of society.

Studies have shown that social inequality is the cause of many social problems. A comprehensive study of major world economies revealed a correlation between social inequality and problems such as homicide, infant mortality, obesity, teenage pregnancies, emotional depression and prison population."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

If the dawn of the human age, that of gatherer-hunters were egalitarian we would have perished from the Earth a long-long time ago. The clan, hunter-gather society was the complete opposite of egalitarianism. The weaker hunters and gatherers by nature were killed off. Clans that favored the weak over the strong died off. Natural selection is the state of nature, and that state is the opposite of egalitarianism. You see this in other species also.

The nature of society is inegalitarian, in that the weak do not prosper, and the strong do. The weak in this case being the entrepreneurs who have bad forecasts, and the strong being those who have strong forecasts of future wants, and demands. No two people are equal. We are all unique individuals -- the complete opposite of egalitarianism. Some are born strong. Some are born weak. Some are born smart. Some are born dumb. Some are born tall. Some short. Egalitarianism seeks to make everyone equal on all levels. Economic & physiological. Egalitarianism is a revolt against nature. Luckily for us as humans though, we have something called empathy. We empathize with the plight of others and use some of our resources to help them. Even more fundamental is the intelligence to recognize that the future is uncertain, and it is in our best interests to aid those in need since we may be in their shoes in the not too distant future. This is also borne out throughout history in Mutual Aid societies, Clubs, associations, and other voluntarily funded and joined groups. So, yes, nature is inegalitarian. The weak die, the strong live. The market is the same. It is fundamentally inegalitarian. The strong prosper, the weak go bankrupt.

I am an individual, not a part of a hive.
 
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Personally, I think you make a mistake by focusing too much on the distribution of wealth. Yes, the system is set up to benefit the extremely rich (top 0.1-0.01%) at everyone else's expense, and they've set themselves up to live like kings standing on our backs. That's awful of course, and among other things, the difference between the mean and median wealth and income both attest to that. However, I think you're blinded by this obvious injustice to the point where you severely underappreciate less obvious factors that have even more devastating effects on the average person's standard of living: By setting up this system where the super-rich have a larger slice of the pie, they have crippled the economy's efficiency and productivity to such a degree that the whole pie is several times smaller than it could be. For a truly prosperous society, we need to fix both problems...but attempting to fix the first directly [like state socialists do] can have a negative impact on the second for economic reasons, even aside from the elite's corruption.

Whereas your focus seems to be almost exclusively on the wealth gap, I imagine AED is more economically-focused on the system's impact on entrepreneurs and the sum total wealth being produced and circulating. When AED said he considers himself "more of a bourgeois type," I doubt he meant it literally in the class warfare sense of the term, but more in terms of where his economic focus is. Of course, I could be wrong, and he could be sitting in an antique leather chair with his top-hat and spectacles looking down on the commoners, but...I doubt it. ;)

You never mention that "second problem", and the bolded portion merely confirms exactly what I am saying.
 
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