Column: You can't reconcile Ayn Rand and Jesus

[low preference guy]

You snipped out part of BuddyRey's quote.

Further you have to consider the definition of charity. The original definition is closer to altruism which (sacrificial love) which Ayn Rand did deride.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/charity.html
It is altruism that has corrupted and perverted human benevolence by regarding the giver as an object of immolation, and the receiver as a helplessly miserable object of pity who holds a mortgage on the lives of others—a doctrine which is extremely offensive to both parties, leaving men no choice but the roles of sacrificial victim or moral cannibal . . . .

To view the question in its proper perspective, one must begin by rejecting altruism’s terms and all of its ugly emotional aftertaste—then take a fresh look at human relationships. It is morally proper to accept help, when it is offered, not as a moral duty, but as an act of good will and generosity, when the giver can afford it (i.e., when it does not involve self-sacrifice on his part), and when it is offered in response to the receiver’s virtues, not in response to his flaws, weaknesses or moral failures, and not on the ground of his need as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(virtue)

That's a lot of stretching to argue that she derided clarity when she clearly didn't.

You want to look at the definition? Ok

char·i·ty/ˈCHaritē/Noun
1. The voluntary giving of help, typically money, to those in need.
2. Help or money given in this way.

Nowhere it says anything about altruism.

 

[jmdrake]

That's a lot of stretching to argue that she derided clarity when she clearly didn't.

You want to look at the definition? Ok

char·i·ty/ˈCHaritē/Noun
1. The voluntary giving of help, typically money, to those in need.
2. Help or money given in this way.

Nowhere it says anything about altruism.

1) I gave you the original version which is the same as altruism.

From my link (which you may not have read).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(virtue)
In Christian theology charity, or love (agapē), means an unlimited loving-kindness toward all others.

The term should not be confused with the more restricted modern use of the word charity to mean benevolent giving.

2) Fine. Edit BuddyRey's original point to say that she derided altruism and you end up at the same place. That still fits BuddyRey's original point which is that "she and Christ admittedly parted ways" at that point philosophically. Since you don't believe in Jesus anyway, why does that matter?

 

[low preference guy]

The term should not be confused with the more restricted modern use of the word charity to mean benevolent giving.

He didn't talk about the old meaning. Ayn Rand also didn't refer to the old meaning.

Edit BuddyRey's original point to say that she derided altruism and you end up at the same place. That still fits BuddyRey's original point which is that "she and Christ admittedly parted ways" at that point philosophically. Since you don't believe in Jesus anyway, why does that matter?

I didn't argue against that. There is a reason I put derided in bold. It's because I'm asking for a link in which she derides charity.

 

[jmdrake]

He didn't talk about the old meaning.

How do you know? Did he send you a PM explaining what meaning of charity was he referring to? The point he was making is that Ayn Rand and Christ part ways on Christian charity. If you want to make a counter point that Ayn Rand is okay with giving money away as long as it's either done for self interest or that your gift is not sacrificial then fine. No argument from me on that.

 

[low preference guy]

If you want to make a counter point that Ayn Rand is okay with giving money away as long as it's either done for self interest or that your gift is not sacrificial then fine. No argument from me on that.

How is this relevant to whether Ayn Rand derided charity or not?

 

[jmdrake]

How is this relevant to whether Ayn Rand derided charity or not?

I think we can both agree that Ayn Rand derided the 1 Corinthians 13 definition of charity. Considering that BuddyRey was talking about this in the context of Christ it is safe to assume IMO that he was talking about the New Testament version of charity. I'm not sure what else to say on the subject.

 

[low preference guy]

I think we can both agree that Ayn Rand derided the 1 Corinthians 13 definition of charity. Considering that BuddyRey was talking about this in the context of Christ it is safe to assume IMO that he was talking about the New Testament version of charity. I'm not sure what else to say on the subject.

Assuming that, I still disagree with your argument. I'm not sure this qualifies as altruistic in the sense Ayn Rand meant it.

In Christian theology charity, or love (agapē), means an unlimited loving-kindness toward all others.

Love and kindness isn't a form of altruism. When you do something difficult to help those you love, that's not altruism from Ayn Rand's perspective, because those who you love are a value to you.

 

[Theocrat]

Diametrically Opposed

The major reason why Jesus Christ and Ayn Rand can't be reconciled is due to their approaches in liberating humankind and the world. In Rand's view, Atlas shrugs to let the world's system collapse on its own, no longer bearing its heavy burdens. In Christ's view, He dies on a cross bearing the weight of the sins of the world upon Himself, granting reconciliation between God and man to restore the world's system in Christ.

In short, Rand's view is selfish and defeatist, while Christ's view is selfless and defeating.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Here is John Robbins (former Ron Paul staffer) eviscerating Objectivism:

 

[heavenlyboy34]

At ~26:00, his "refutation" of Rand's version of the NAP isn't very good. Otherwise, a pretty interesting vid.

 

[Sola_Fide]

At ~26:00, his "refutation" of Rand's version of the NAP isn't very good. Otherwise, a pretty interesting vid.

I thought his refutation of the idea of inalienable rights was persuasive.

 

[Sola_Fide]

By the way, John Robbins wrote a book called "Without a Prayer: Ayn Rand and the Close of Her System". I haven't read it. Here is Ron Paul's praise of it:

"John Robbins is as stalwart a defender of a free society as I have known. His love of freedom—religious, political, and economic—motivated him to write Without a Prayer, a brilliantly insightful analysis of Ayn Rand's influential philosophy. Without a Prayer deserves to be read by everyone who loves freedom—everyone who wants to advocate freedom with arguments that cannot be refuted. Robbins furnishes the indispensable ideas—the intellectual ammunition—required to defend freedom successfully."

Ron Paul (R-TX)
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, D.C.

 

[NewRightLibertarian]

They smear Ayn Rand because they are having a harder time smearing the good doctor. They are trying with all their might to snuff out libertarian ideas. Ayn Rand was a crazy cult leader and is easy to defame, that's why they devote article after article to smear her. She said many brilliant things while saying many things that were abhorrent, that's her legacy. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

 

[AceNZ]

She said many brilliant things while saying many things that were abhorrent, that's her legacy. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

Because it's not true. Brilliant, yes. Abhorrent? Hardly. Well, unless you consider life to be abhorrent, I suppose.

 

[YumYum]

Didn't she hate Palestinians?

 

[AceNZ]

Didn't she hate Palestinians?

No, she didn't hate them. In an interview, she once said that if she had to choose between the Israelis and the Palestinians, she would choose the Israelis, but only because she felt they were more productive. That can hardly be called hate.

 

[YumYum]

No, she didn't hate them. In an interview, she once said that if she had to choose between the Israelis and the Palestinians, she would choose the Israelis, but only because she felt they were more productive. That can hardly be called hate.

As a Jew myself, I feel more productive than gentiles. Does that count?

 

[AceNZ]

As a Jew myself, I feel more productive than gentiles. Does that count?

Productivity counts, regardless of jew vs. gentile, black vs. white, or any other superficial characteristic. It's not the only virtue, but it's an important one.

She favored people who used their minds; the rational, irrespective of race, creed, color, etc. She rejected religion, racism and bigotry because she felt they were irrational. She also felt that it wasn't possible to hold just one irrational concept -- that if you tried, it would eventually corrupt the rest of your thinking.

 

[Jim Casey]

Why would anyone try to reconcile Ayn Rand's philosophy and Jesus? She was Jewish, for Christ's sake....

Inquiring minds seek to convert.

 

[jmdrake]

Assuming that, I still disagree with your argument. I'm not sure this qualifies as altruistic in the sense Ayn Rand meant it.



Love and kindness isn't a form of altruism. When you do something difficult to help those you love, that's not altruism from Ayn Rand's perspective, because those who you love are a value to you.

But that's just it. Jesus asks us to love everybody even our enemies. So everybody has value. Ayn Rand gave the specific example of coming up on someone who was drowning. If you risk your life to save that person and he's a stranger, according to Ayn, that's altruistic and immoral. Contrast that with Jesus who, according to Christian "mythology" (as you would see it), died even for those who were actively rejecting Him.

Oh and thanks for the +rep for this thread. From your comment I think you meant to give a -rep, but hey I'll take the love anyway. The Bible says God will make even your enemies to be at peace with you.