Clip From Freedom Watch: Ron Paul on the Plausibility of HR1207

[Brassmouth]

YouTube - Part 1: 07/15/2009 Freedom Watch 23 w/ Ron Paul, G. Edward Griffin, Peter Schiff, more

Start at 7:05

It all depends on those in power and what they wanna do.

Truer words have never been spoken.

I'm afraid, preparing, and conditioning myself and everybody else...[for the effort to fail]...and that we won't know one year from now what's going on behind the scenes.

The bracketed part was paraphrased, but that's essentially what he meant. He then goes on to assert that "we" should try to pass it anyway (which is interesting, given that he admitted it basically has no chance.)

Now, the AUTHOR of the bill, and the LEADER of the political portion of the American liberty movement has just smoothly and quietly indicated that *surprise, surprise* TPTB in Washington will never allow the Fed to be jeopardized, and that the best we can hope for is some token Fed amendment tacked onto one of Barney Frank's regulation bills.

In summary, it is futile to expect the monopoly State to limit its own power. It's never happened before, and it won't happen at all.

In economics, there is something called "opportunity cost." For instance, the OC of going to work is being able to enjoy leisure time. The OC of using tuna to make a sandwich is using the tuna for making a salad. The OC of expending scarce movement effort to support legislation is using the effort to support some other method of smashing the State.

Isn't it time we put our efforts into something that's at least marginally productive??

 

[CCTelander]

youtube - part 1: 07/15/2009 freedom watch 23 w/ ron paul, g. Edward griffin, peter schiff, more

start at 7:05



truer words have never been spoken.



The bracketed part was paraphrased, but that's essentially what he meant. He then goes on to assert that "we" should try to pass it anyway (which is interesting, given that he admitted it basically has no chance.)

now, the author of the bill, and the leader of the political portion of the american liberty movement has just smoothly and quietly indicated that *surprise, surprise* tptb in washington will never allow the fed to be jeopardized, and that the best we can hope for is some token fed amendment tacked onto one of barney frank's regulation bills.

In summary, it is futile to expect the monopoly state to limit its own power. It's never happened before, and it won't happen at all.

In economics, there is something called "opportunity cost." for instance, the oc of going to work is being able to enjoy leisure time. The oc of using tuna to make a sandwich is using the tuna for making a salad. the oc of expending scarce movement effort to support legislation is using the effort to support some other method of smashing the state.

isn't it time we put our efforts into something that's at least marginally productive??

qft

 

[FSP-Rebel]

Free State Project

 

[Thesemindz]

Imagine what could have been accomplished if all the time, money, and intellectual resources wasted in Ron Paul's last presidential campaign had instead been put towards some productive attempt to achieve real freedom.

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/

We could buy an island for less money than was wasted on his last campaign.

How much would you pay to get a shot at real freedom for yourself and your family?


-Rob

 

[CCTelander]

Imagine what could have been accomplished if all the time, money, and intellectual resources wasted in Ron Paul's last presidential campaign had instead been put towards some productive attempt to achieve real freedom.

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/

We could buy an island for less money than was wasted on his last campaign.

How much would you pay to get a shot at real freedom for yourself and your family?


-Rob

I'm betting that most here will take issue with the idea that the money raised for RP's presidential run was "wasted," but I LOVE the way your mind is running on this.

I'd chip in for that kind of a project in a heartbeat.

 

[Thesemindz]

I'm betting that most here will take issue with the idea that the money raised for RP's presidential run was "wasted," but I LOVE the way your mind is running on this.

I'd chip in for that kind of a project in a heartbeat.

I'm betting you're right, but I'd be interested to see what evidence they could provide that I was wrong.

And simply arguing that "a bunch of people have awakened to what's going on" doesn't cut it for me. On a national scale I don't see any real gains having been made.

That money could have bought an island where people could have been free. It could have bought the firearms to defend it.

Or it could have been used to set up schools around the country where liberty was taught. It could have been used to write books, or make movies about freedom. It could have bought the freedom of countless innocents accused of firearms or drug crimes. It could have been used to start gardens in everyone's backyard to increase their self reliance, or to set up garages where customers get free auto work in exchange for showing up and learning how to do it themselves, or to set up self defense classes around the country where people could learn to keep themselves safe and put the police out of work, or to deliver copies of "Human Action" to every American household.

Hell, maybe it could have been used to buy a couple of senators and congressmen and encouraged them to vote for liberty, instead of spent in an attempt to get one congressman elected to a position people should've known better than to expect him to win.

How many resources have been wasted in honest electoral politics in over two hundred years? How much real freedom could those resources have purchased if the liberty movement could finally get over this ridiculous fixation on playing by the rules?

The rules are set up to keep you enslaved. This is a game you can't win by playing.


-Rob

 

[CCTelander]

I'm betting you're right, but I'd be interested to see what evidence they could provide that I was wrong.

And simply arguing that "a bunch of people have awakened to what's going on" doesn't cut it for me. On a national scale I don't see any real gains having been made.

That money could have bought an island where people could have been free. It could have bought the firearms to defend it.

Or it could have been used to set up schools around the country where liberty was taught. It could have been used to write books, or make movies about freedom. It could have bought the freedom of countless innocents accused of firearms or drug crimes. It could have been used to start gardens in everyone's backyard to increase their self reliance, or to set up garages where customers get free auto work in exchange for showing up and learning how to do it themselves, or to set up self defense classes around the country where people could learn to keep themselves safe and put the police out of work, or to deliver copies of "Human Action" to every American household.

Hell, maybe it could have been used to buy a couple of senators and congressmen and encouraged them to vote for liberty, instead of spent in an attempt to get one congressman elected to a position people should've known better than to expect him to win.

How many resources have been wasted in honest electoral politics in over two hundred years? How much real freedom could those resources have purchased if the liberty movement could finally get over this ridiculous fixation on playing by the rules?

The rules are set up to keep you enslaved. This is a game you can't win by playing.


-Rob

On that bold part: The game IS rigged. The ONLY way to win a rigged game is not to play.

 

[Deborah K]

Imagine what could have been accomplished if all the time, money, and intellectual resources wasted in Ron Paul's last presidential campaign had instead been put towards some productive attempt to achieve real freedom.

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/

We could buy an island for less money than was wasted on his last campaign.

How much would you pay to get a shot at real freedom for yourself and your family?


-Rob

Hind-sight is ....well...you know. Unless you have a crystal ball, then I would put away your snarky remarks about our efforts. We proved what we were capable of. We will prove it again.

 

[Thesemindz]

Hind-sight is ....well...you know. Unless you have a crystal ball, then I would put away your snarky remarks about our efforts. We proved what we were capable of. We will prove it again.

Sorry Deborah. It's not snarky. I really don't mean to offend. I admit, I mean to shock a little. But look at what you wrote.

We proved what we were capable of.

And what, exactly, was that?

He didn't get elected. The fed didn't get audited. We don't have less, smaller, or more contained government.

We do have nationalization of major American industries. We do have more taxation. We do have increased executive power. We do have coming energy and health care legislation.

You proved what you were capable of. But more importantly, the state proved that you can't accomplish anything of value.

They won. You lost. We all lost. It is what it is. And trying to prove it again will only continue wasting resources which could be used to make you free.

That's the whole point. They let you waste tens of millions of dollars, and man hours, on something which accomplished nothing.

And will again. And again. As long as people continue to try to play within the system.

So instead, give up on the system. Work with your neighbors to achieve real freedom. Work outside of the system.

Or waste all those resources again in 2010 and 2012 and 2014 and 2016. Because they want you to waste your time and money on electoral politics.

Instead of anything that might actually work.


-Rob

 

[torchbearer]

I've been an activist in the 'freedom movement' since 1996. The explosion of awareness and people to this idea over the last couple of years have been phenomonal.
The amount of TV coverage and press Ron Paul gets today is a 1000 times more than anyone in our movement has ever gotten in the mainstream.

For the noobs who are bitching about how we aren't accomplishing anything- let me tell you- you are wrong.
We are making huge strides compared to what we've been doing for decades... and certainly since i've joined the fight and seen first hand.

I understand that without experiencing my shoes for all those miles, you can't really appreciate what we are accomplishing.. so i do empathize.
But I am still stating that you are wrong. We are winning over people and changing the discourse of this country.
I see it everyday.

 

[Thesemindz]

I've been an activist in the 'freedom movement' since 1996. The explosion of awareness and people to this idea over the last couple of years have been phenomonal.
The amount of TV coverage and press Ron Paul gets today is a 1000 times more than anyone in our movement has ever gotten in the mainstream.

You mean phenomenal compared to the nothing that was being accomplished before. I've been involved in the same movement as long, and seen the same "explosion" of awareness you have. And seen it accomplish exactly nothing in the cause of real freedom. In fact, we were far more free under Bush 1 than under Clinton, under Clinton than under Bush 2, under Bush 2 than under Obama. See a pattern?

For the noobs who are bitching about how we aren't accomplishing anything- let me tell you- you are wrong.

What, exactly, then are you accomplishing? Are you more free? Do you think you are actually closer to being more free? Do you see freedom through electoral politics on the horizon?

Or have you just lost more, and more, and more freedoms while you've played around in electoral politics?

We are making huge strides compared to what we've been doing for decades... and certainly since i've joined the fight and seen first hand.

Huge strides in what? When I joined the movement, people were arguing about flags in courtrooms, and how the IRS won't accept FRNs for payment, and how a witnessed affidavit could be used in lieu of a drivers license. And what did any of that accomplish?

So you got some air time on Fox News. Fox News is as much in the tank as the rest of them. So you got some people to attend rallies and write checks. The state doesn't care, they love it. Because what you've really done is fool people into thinking their vote counts. You're doing the state's dirty work for them.

I understand that without experiencing my shoes for all those miles, you can't really appreciate what we are accomplishing.. so i do empathize.
But I am still stating that you are wrong. We are winning over people and changing the discourse of this country.
I see it everyday.

I do too. And you're right that people are waking up.

But if they wake up and think electoral politics will save them, they might as well have stayed asleep. Government is violence. It's theft. And constitutional government is no different. Meet the new boss same as the old boss. Don't mind the guns, they're for your own good.

The oppressors want you to vote. They want you to rally. They definitely want you to donate generously.

That way you aren't doing anything productive with your time.


-Rob

 

[torchbearer]

You mean phenomenal compared to the nothing that was being accomplished before. I've been involved in the same movement as long, and seen the same "explosion" of awareness you have. And seen it accomplish exactly nothing in the cause of real freedom. In fact, we were far more free under Bush 1 than under Clinton, under Clinton than under Bush 2, under Bush 2 than under Obama. See a pattern?



What, exactly, then are you accomplishing? Are you more free? Do you think you are actually closer to being more free? Do you see freedom through electoral politics on the horizon?

Or have you just lost more, and more, and more freedoms while you've played around in electoral politics?



Huge strides in what? When I joined the movement, people were arguing about flags in courtrooms, and how the IRS won't accept FRNs for payment, and how a witnessed affidavit could be used in lieu of a drivers license. And what did any of that accomplish?

So you got some air time on Fox News. Fox News is as much in the tank as the rest of them. So you got some people to attend rallies and write checks. The state doesn't care, they love it. Because what you've really done is fool people into thinking their vote counts. You're doing the state's dirty work for them.



I do too. And you're right that people are waking up.

But if they wake up and think electoral politics will save them, they might as well have stayed asleep. Government is violence. It's theft. And constitutional government is no different. Meet the new boss same as the old boss. Don't mind the guns, they're for your own good.

The oppressors want you to vote. They want you to rally. They definitely want you to donate generously.

That way you aren't doing anything productive with your time.


-Rob

I am productive with my time because I create jobs by being productive.
Having to take time to do anything else could be seen as unproductive.

Now as far as politics is concerned, if you leave this court abandoned, the problems will persist.
You stop voting, crooks keep getting elected.
You take up arms, you will get killed and the police state will tighten its grip.
So how are you being productive?

 

[Thesemindz]

I am productive with my time because I create jobs by being productive.
Having to take time to do anything else could be seen as unproductive.

And good on you for it. I'm referring of course to productivity in the cause of freedom, but even creating jobs furthers freedom. Every person who earns a living by the work of his hands is one less stealing it from his neighbors via the state. I applaud you.

Now as far as politics is concerned, if you leave this court abandoned, the problems will persist.
You stop voting, crooks keep getting elected.
You take up arms, you will get killed and the police state will tighten its grip.

You, and I, and many others have voted many times. Yet we have more, and more evil crooks election after election. If you are arguing that your vote can prevent that, simply look around at how many people are voting for the lesser of two evils, or voting against one candidate rather than for another. The problems persists, whether you file your complaints with the appropriate offices or not.

You are right about taking up arms of course. It just gets you killed. The state will come after most of us eventually anyway when things get really bad, but no reason to speed up the process.

I'm not saying give up the cause. I'm saying change tactics. Don't fight the last war. Stay ahead of them. Set the rules. Don't let them frame your strategy.

So how are you being productive?

Great question.

I teach self defense classes for free on the weekends to empower my fellow citizens. It's the skill I have, so I share it with my neighbors. If I could build cars, I'd teach that. Share your skills with your community. There's nothing wrong with getting paid to do so, but the key is to create greater self reliance.

I write articles about anarcho-capitalism online to share the philosophy. I participate in forums, comment on youtube videos, and contribute to websites that further the cause of liberty. Communication and education are far more powerful than elections. And you don't have to wait four years to participate!

I educate my friends, family, and coworkers as to the evils inherent in statism and the freedoms inherent in their existence. Just today I explained to one of my coworkers the ways in which the minimum wage creates wage compression, job rationing, and an overall increase in the consumer cost of goods and services.

I support libertarian and anarchistic artists, writers, and musicians, both financially and through marketing their products to others.

I donate my time to private charities, because I believe it is private charity, and not state welfare, which helps people improve their lives.

I try to live my own life by the principles and virtues of freedom. I try to be an example of what I encourage in others.

I don't expect to change the world alone, but I'm working at it. And I believe that I'm working at something that might actually show results.


-Rob

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Thanks.

Thank you for supporting anarchist/libertarian artists, writers, and musicians. I am one myself (musician/artist), and your support is helpful for the cause of individual liberty.

And good on you for it. I'm referring of course to productivity in the cause of freedom, but even creating jobs furthers freedom. Every person who earns a living by the work of his hands is one less stealing it from his neighbors via the state. I applaud you.



You, and I, and many others have voted many times. Yet we have more, and more evil crooks election after election. If you are arguing that your vote can prevent that, simply look around at how many people are voting for the lesser of two evils, or voting against one candidate rather than for another. The problems persists, whether you file your complaints with the appropriate offices or not.

You are right about taking up arms of course. It just gets you killed. The state will come after most of us eventually anyway when things get really bad, but no reason to speed up the process.

I'm not saying give up the cause. I'm saying change tactics. Don't fight the last war. Stay ahead of them. Set the rules. Don't let them frame your strategy.



Great question.

I teach self defense classes for free on the weekends to empower my fellow citizens. It's the skill I have, so I share it with my neighbors. If I could build cars, I'd teach that. Share your skills with your community. There's nothing wrong with getting paid to do so, but the key is to create greater self reliance.

I write articles about anarcho-capitalism online to share the philosophy. I participate in forums, comment on youtube videos, and contribute to websites that further the cause of liberty. Communication and education are far more powerful than elections. And you don't have to wait four years to participate!

I educate my friends, family, and coworkers as to the evils inherent in statism and the freedoms inherent in their existence. Just today I explained to one of my coworkers the ways in which the minimum wage creates wage compression, job rationing, and an overall increase in the consumer cost of goods and services.

I support libertarian and anarchistic artists, writers, and musicians, both financially and through marketing their products to others.

I donate my time to private charities, because I believe it is private charity, and not state welfare, which helps people improve their lives.

I try to live my own life by the principles and virtues of freedom. I try to be an example of what I encourage in others.

I don't expect to change the world alone, but I'm working at it. And I believe that I'm working at something that might actually show results.


-Rob

 

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

why don't we just show up and audit the fed ourselves.

 

[Thesemindz]

Thank you for supporting anarchist/libertarian artists, writers, and musicians. I am one myself (musician/artist), and your support is helpful for the cause of individual liberty.

Good on ya. I believe that the only way we'll really see freedom is by promoting it on a personal, individual basis. And artists have always been a part of that movement.


-Rob

 

[NYgs23]

Agorist Thesemindz dismisses the fact that "a bunch of people have been awakened" because he hasn't seen "real gains." But gains of any sort can only occur if you first change peoples' hearts and minds. Indeed, changing hearts and minds is pretty nearly the whole of it. Once people truly believe in a pro-freedom ideology, everything, including the political sphere will naturally follow. The relative success of H.R. 1207 may merely be the first indicator of that on the federal level (there have been other positive actions on the state level).

It is true that some people are too focused on passing this bill or winning that election with the mentality that change occurs from the top-down. However, while any rollback of State aggression is good in and of itself, political action, for libertarians, should be an ideological battle, focused on converting people and drawing attention to these issues. This is the "real gain." And hasn't Ron Paul proven it's success? After all, he converted me.

Audit the Fed is also primarily an ideological battle. In that, it's already been a success. As for its chances of passing, Ron Paul appears to be rather dissappointed at how Barney Frank is dragging his feet, but this doesn't mean the bill is dead. It's continuing to obtain cosponsors in the House and Senate, and, although, as we have learned, the number of cosponsors only goes so far in a system in which two or three "leaders" guard the gates, this will nonetheless increase pressure on those leaders, as will noise from the grassroots. If it passes, it will be a reflection not on the system or on the whims of any politician, but the ideological shift at the grassroots. Indeed it already has demonstrated this shift, while, at the same time, it has helped bring this issue forward, thereby shifting the societal discourse even more. And, if it actually passes and there is an audit, so much the better.

When you give up the political methods, you give up an extremely powerful tool for competing in the market of ideas. One would think Ron Paul has already proven this.

 

[Thesemindz]

why don't we just show up and audit the fed ourselves.

Because they wouldn't let you in, and if you tried to force your way in, they'd shoot you, and if you shot them first, there'd be war.

And it isn't worth it to go to war to defeat a crumbling ideology that's on its way out anyway. It'll fall eventually, it isn't worth the bloodshed a violent revolution would require.


-Rob

 

[torchbearer]

I don't expect to change the world alone, but I'm working at it. And I believe that I'm working at something that might actually show results.


-Rob

And dissing other people's efforts is fruitful in your view?
How about me saying, you are wasting your time. People have been doing what you are doing for decades and we haven't seen any improvement.
You think you are the only person here who reaches out to the people around them?
Your attitude stinks, and is the attitude of some in the LP that keeps people from doing anything at all.
Think about that for a little bit. Let in simmer in a brain cell.

This isn't the first time I've had this discussion. You don't become the Vice-Chair of the LALP without being thoroughly tested. We were making inches, now we are making feet.
If we continue, we will start gaining yards and eventually miles.

1207 is a political play. A masterful one at that...
The Fed has hired a lobbyist. And as Ron Paul has stated, even if 1207 fails- we win. A brilliant chess move.

I talk to people at my family's diner. Average people are now stating that the fed is indeed the problem. One lady today was talking about the World Bank and the Fed Reserve as the root of our problems. She wasn't a wonk. She is a small business owner.
She hasn't been the only one.

I just had a letter to the editor publish concerning the fed. The feedback I have gotten has been so overwhelming, that I may write another.
People are starting to get it. We are not wasting our time.

Had you been around our movement before Ron's run for president... and convinced everyone that we were wasting our time... 90% of the people who registered on this forum would have never even heard of our message.
So you and Lew Rockwell can suck a big one on this... disengaging in politics would be a loss for us and a win for the assholes running this country.

You need the patience of a Ron Paul.. and the wisdom.

 

[Thesemindz]

Agorist Thesemindz dismisses the fact that "a bunch of people have been awakened" because he hasn't seen "real gains." But gains of any sort can only occur if you first change peoples' hearts and minds. Indeed, changing hearts and minds is pretty nearly the whole of it. Once people truly believe in a pro-freedom ideology, everything, including the political sphere will naturally follow. The relative success of H.R. 1207 may merely be the first indicator of that on the federal level (there have been other positive actions on the state level).

It is true that some people are too focused on passing this bill or winning that election with the mentality that change occurs from the top-down. However, while any rollback of State aggression is good in and of itself, political action, for libertarians, should be an ideological battle, focused on converting people and drawing attention to these issues. This is the "real gain." And hasn't Ron Paul proven it's success? After all, he converted me.

Audit the Fed is also primarily an ideological battle. In that, it's already been a success. As for its chances of passing, Ron Paul appears to be rather dissappointed at how Barney Frank is dragging his feet, but this doesn't mean the bill is dead. It's continuing to obtain cosponsors in the House and Senate, and, although, as we have learned, the number of cosponsors only goes so far in a system in which two or three "leaders" guard the gates, this will nonetheless increase pressure on those leaders, as will noise from the grassroots. If it passes, it will be a reflection not on the system or on the whims of any politician, but the ideological shift at the grassroots. Indeed it already has demonstrated this shift, while, at the same time, it has helped bring this issue forward, thereby shifting the societal discourse even more. And, if it actually passes and there is an audit, so much the better.

When you give up the political methods, you give up an extremely powerful tool for competing in the market of ideas. One would think Ron Paul has already proven this.

The tool doesn't exist for your utility. It exists to keep you enslaved.

Even if you elected the perfect savior to return this government to its constitutional boundaries and improve upon it from there, you'd still have a state and a gun to your head.

Do you really think that the cause of freedom was best advanced by the donation of ten million dollars in two days to a political campaign? You can't think of any better way that money could have been spent? At all?


-Rob