Clear me up on Jefferson: Is he really the guy we want to compare Ron to?

[Butchie]

So, we throw out all that was good and wise about Jefferson because he was a product of a barbaric time, and the Constitution out for the same reason. Hell of a deal. But once we do, what becomes of his wisdom? Gets thrown out with him?

Yes, he owned slaves and that makes it hard to take him seriously as a proponent of liberty. Yet he was just that. At a time when everyone was considered 'beholden to the crown', which is pretty much slavery as we think of it today, he was instrumental in making some masters of their own destiny. Not all but some. What right do we have to sit in the luxury of benefiting from his efforts and criticize him for not pulling that trick off for everyone? Tell me that, butchie.

All of this is just another way to use political correctness to stifle speech so we don't look at how far we've backslid in the last two hundred years from the good principles we were crawling toward. Nothing more.

Calm down, I was just asking a question. Besides, you all only seem to be answering my one question, the slavery one, which is actually the one I was less interested in, I was more curious about his 2nd term as Pres with the embargo which many historians view as a huge stain on his career.

 

[Bonnieblue]

Ben Franklin was pretty opposed to slavery, he fought very hard against it, in fact most of the founders from the North did, they just saw that at the time it would have torn apart the fragile Union they had just created and so they compromised right or wrong, I guess it's hard to say what I would have done at the time, stand for my principle and watch the country come apart or save the fight for another day.

There were slaves in every colony, North and South, during and after the War for Independence. Profits were made on slavery North and South during and after the War for Independence.

Benjamin Franklin was a Keynesian before Keynes was. Read this article.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/franklin-economics.html

If you are a Ron Paul purist, you should therefore reject Franklin.

 

[wowrevolution]

Thomas Jefferson wrote legislation outlawing slavery.

.

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.

And the US Congress and President Thomas Jefferson passed a law in early 1807 that would outlaw the trans-Atlantic slave trade on January 1, 1808.

Jefferson was protecting his slaves in the sense that if they were out running free at the time they would have been killed, kidnapped, and perhaps given to harsh masters. Jefferson provided his slaves with a better education than most whites had at the time.

The slaves that worked for him were largely patriots who knew what Jefferson represented to the cause of freedom. Slander against him is just propaganda to attack America's foundation with.

 

[Bonnieblue]

In hindsite they should have settled it then as it led to far worse consequences than to have the country divided later and reunited with the blood of millions..

Just how would they have settled it without fratricide and without the European powers picking up the pieces? Do you advocate a fratricidal war to settle social problems? That does not sound very Ron Paulian.

 

[wowrevolution]

The Bible teaches "by their fruits ye shall know them." The history and writings of Jefferson evidence a consistent moral integrity and honesty throughout his life -- and a rising star, not a fallen one.

With respect to slaves, Jefferson actually did more during his life against slavery than most other men of his time -- and deserves the credit for the principles in the Declaration of Independence that "all men are created equal" -- which in the hands of Lincoln and Divine Providence, eventually freed the slaves -- at a great price of human blood in the Civil War.

Jefferson's anti-slavery efforts include:

1. Introduction of a bill in 1769 the Virginia legislature to abolish the importation of slaves into that state.

2. Inclusion of an anti-slavery provision in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence in 1776.

3. Initiated the Congressional ban on slavery in all federal lands in 1784 (his effort to extend the act to the 13 states lost by only one vote).

4. In 1808, as President, he signed into law a bill banning the slave trade with Africa.

While Jefferson did not free all of his slaves on his death (as did Washington), a law passed in Virginia in 1806 required that the legislature pass a special bill that would attest to the exemplary behavior of each slave to be freed. If freed, the slave had to leave the state without his or her family. Jefferson tried unsuccessfully to get this law changed. Further, Jefferson trained his slaves in skills that would be useful when they were free. He believed that to free them first would be irresponsible -- since they would be homeless and without family.

http://www.liberty1.org/defense.htm

 

[NYgs23]

I like alot about Jefferson and definitely his opposition to banks is an obvious similarity to Ron, but the guy was a vicious defender of slavery, also in his second term as President he put a trade embargo on the British which sunk the economy, so I don't know, was he a good President or a bad one?

For a man of his time, in the South, he was quite ambivalent about slavery and the slave trade and said and did various things in opposition to it in his earlier years. Later, especially after he became president, he skewed away from the more radical idealism of his younger self. His presidency was, in many ways, a failure. His misguided sympathy for the French Revolution and animosity towards Britain led him to impose the embargo, he reluctantly went along with the Louisiana Purchase despite considering it unconstitutional, and he failed to undo much of the statism imposed by Adams' federalists. His greatest achievements were pre-Presidential: his stirring articulation and defense of the philosophy of liberty in documents like the Declaration of Independence and the Kentucky Resolutions.

 

[Bonnieblue]

Calm down, I was just asking a question. Besides, you all only seem to be answering my one question, the slavery one, which is actually the one I was less interested in, I was more curious about his 2nd term as Pres with the embargo which many historians view as a huge stain on his career.

It is not the job of legitimate historians to pronounce that a certain act is a stain. The embargo was a prudent if failed act because the other alternative toward which we were being drawn was war. Obviously, for New Englanders, who talked from then up through 1814 about secession, the impact was negative. There is nothing evil or sinister about the embargo; it was a prudent act short of war and it failed, primarily although not exclusively because the New Englanders were not diverse enough to seek out new markets or could not.

 

[NYgs23]

Of the slaveholding classical liberals of that generation, one of the most interesting and honest statements comes from Patrick Henry on his own hypocrisy:

Is it not amazing, that at a time, when ye. Rights of Humanity are defined & understood with precision, in a Country above all others fond of Liberty, that in such an Age, & such a Country we find Men, professing a Religion ye. most humane, mild, meek, gentle & generous; adopting a Principle as repugnant to humanity as it is inconsistant with the Bible and destructive to Liberty....

....Would any one believe that I am Master of Slaves of my own purchase! I am drawn along by ye. general inconvenience of living without them, I will not, I cannot justify it. However culpable my Conduct, I will so far pay my devoir to Virtue, as to own the excellence & rectitude of her Precepts, & to lament my want of conforming to them.--

I believe a time will come when an oppo. will be offered to abolish this lamentable Evil.--Every thing we can do is to improve it, if it happens in our day, if not, let us transmit to our descendants together with our Slaves, a pity for their unhappy Lot, & an abhorrence for Slavery.

"....by the general inconvenience of living without them..." Of course, in that time and place, before the Industrial Revolution, giving up your slaves would be something like giving up your car, your washer-dryer, and all the other time-saving technologies of modern civilization. While not justifying it, it may better help us understand the incredible temptation by its beneficiaries--even the some of the most liberty-loving and philosophical--to rationalize it.

 

[HRD53]

Ron Paul is better than TJ. Jeff wrote the Declaration of Independence and said that "all men are created equal" and endowed unalienable rights. However, he must not have believed this as he himself owned slaves. I like TJ but this is the turd in the punch bowl for me. I'm curious if there was a founder who wasn't pro slavery or was an abolitionist.

John Adams never owned a slave and was against slavery. I believe his wife was an abolitionist. I do not think he was that particularly outspoken about it though... probably would have been political suicide back then. Nevertheless I always respected his personal principled stance in a time where it was the norm.

 

[Revolution9]

Seriously? I rather be free, and impoverished, than a slave who eats well at the hands of my master.

Would it be alright if he gave you a stucco apartment, a paycheque and a SS#... plus you could pick out your own groceries?

Rev9

 

[klamath]

Just how would they have settled it without fratricide and without the European powers picking up the pieces? Do you advocate a fratricidal war to settle social problems? That does not sound very Ron Paulian.

comparing slavery to social problems

 

[KurtBoyer25L]

Jefferson held onto his slaves partially because he knew what would happen to them if he let them go to somebody else. You need to remember that black people didn't have rights then, and it wasn't like there was some sanctuary next door. Jefferson probably felt they were better off with him than being whipped in Carolina or chased by (black) slave traders in Africa.

 

[TroySmith]

As for the Louisiana Purchase: The Senate did authorize the purchase. The question was: Did Jefferson have the Constitutional authority to enter into secret negotiations for that deal, or would the Senate only have that power?

Either way, Jefferson doubled the size of the country without firing a single shot. He also shrunk the national debt in half despite that massive purchase. That would be the equivalent today of adding adding Mexico to the country peacefully and bringing our debt from 15T to 7.5T. That would be an INCREDIBLE achievement.

 

[Brick-in-the-Wall]

That would be the equivalent today of adding adding Mexico to the country peacefully and bringing our debt from 15T to 7.5T. That would be an INCREDIBLE achievement.

So...when can we get started on this?

 

[Bonnieblue]

comparing slavery to social problems

Yes, slavery was a social problem. Slaves were domestic bondsmen in a social order. That makes it a social problem. Why the silly grinning face? Man question to you was should they have settled that social problem by bloody fratricide in 1776 and have allowed the British to pick up the pieces. Should abortion be settled by violence or war? My answer, although I am strongly anti-abortion, is absolutely not. What is your answer?

 

[klamath]

Yes, slavery was a social problem. Slaves were domestic bondsmen in a social order. That makes it a social problem. Why the silly grinning face? Man question to you was should they have settled that social problem by bloody fratricide in 1776 and have allowed the British to pick up the pieces. Should abortion be settled by violence or war? My answer, although I am strongly anti-abortion, is absolutely not. What is your answer?

They should have refused to acept slave holding into the union as it was flat out againt the entire idea of the DI. And they really should have refused to allow the slave holding states to count the slaves as partial citizens done only so they could have higher representation in the house. If the southern states went their own way as a seperate slave holding country so be it. Eventially they would have figured their horrible hyprocracy out and would have rid themselves of the institution like all other western nations did without a war. The states that refused to have the slavery and the vision of the DI would still be these united states and not the united states.
Allowing it to be accepted and fester along the mason dixon line for nearly a hundred years is what led to the death of a million americans.

 

[klamath]

I really like the argument that Jefferson was holding the slaves for their own good. GOOD GOD! The neocon and eletes are withdrawning our freedon for OUR own good and we better damned well like it! They are good to us they give us wefare and they give us student loans and they give us SSI and they give us safety from the evil muslims!
Did Jefferson ever offer to pay his slaves? Did jefferson ever ask the slaves if THEY wanted to be held as slaves FOR their own protection?
I really can't believe I am reading this crap on here. Giving up our cars is the same as giving up slaves?! I can really see how the racism charge sticks to RP because of the attitude of some of his supporters. If this is how they sell RP no wonder people believe he is a racist.
Jefferson kept slaves for one reason only. he loved and elite lifestyle and could not give that up. He knew in his heart and he knew in his intellect slavery was wrong.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Ron Paul is better than TJ. Jeff wrote the Declaration of Independence and said that "all men are created equal" and endowed unalienable rights. However, he must not have believed this as he himself owned slaves. I like TJ but this is the turd in the punch bowl for me. I'm curious if there was a founder who wasn't pro slavery or was an abolitionist.

Many of them. The most well known is probably Samuel Adams.

 

[Moo2400]

Thomas Jefferson being a hypocrite in regards to slavery doesn't at all change his contributions to liberty. The man did far more to further the cause of liberty in his lifetime while owning slaves than most of you non-slave owning individuals ever will. It is thanks to people like Thomas Jefferson that we have an independent United States and our constitution; now let's simply improve upon what he and the others founders started.

 

[samforpaul]

I know this question is a bit off topic. However, I've heard that TJ died broke and w debts. Can someone confirm this w some explanation?
Thanks.