Clear me up on Jefferson: Is he really the guy we want to compare Ron to?

[Butchie]

I like alot about Jefferson and definitely his opposition to banks is an obvious similarity to Ron, but the guy was a vicious defender of slavery, also in his second term as President he put a trade embargo on the British which sunk the economy, so I don't know, was he a good President or a bad one?

 

[joshnorris14]

If you don't count the years he was President... Yes

 

[FSP-Rebel]

Granted, I'm no historian but Jefferson originally put some anti-slavery lingo into the first edition of the Dec of Ind which was subsequently taken out to bolster southern colony support. He also freed his slaves upon his death if I'm not mistaken. My main issue with him was buying the LA purchase from France because it really wasn't Constitutional but destiny would have this land mass inevitably belonging to the US.

 

[Morerockin]

I like alot about Jefferson and definitely his opposition to banks is an obvious similarity to Ron, but the guy was a vicious defender of slavery, also in his second term as President he put a trade embargo on the British which sunk the economy, so I don't know, was he a good President or a bad one?

Ron Paul is better than TJ. Jeff wrote the Declaration of Independence and said that "all men are created equal" and endowed unalienable rights. However, he must not have believed this as he himself owned slaves. I like TJ but this is the turd in the punch bowl for me. I'm curious if there was a founder who wasn't pro slavery or was an abolitionist.

 

[Dsylexic]

all of them had a cognitive dissonance about slaves.i guess they really believed blacks were non human.ie just chattel. so,no -they are not comparable to ron.who is a superior human being.but jefferson et al are also products of their time. some of their ideas were revolutionary.others were backward and ordinary.
so,there is no need to put him on a pedestal as a saint.we can acknowledge him for his ideas and contributions while fully recognizing his imperfections.

 

[Morerockin]

all of them had a cognitive dissonance about slaves.i guess they really believed blacks were non human.ie just chattel. so,no -they are not comparable to ron.who is a superior human being.but jefferson et al are also products of their time. some of their ideas were revolutionary.others were backward and ordinary.
so,there is no need to put him on a pedestal as a saint.we can acknowledge him for his ideas and contributions while fully recognizing his imperfections.

Yep. Agreed

 

[dskalkowski]

Well the problem is, when Jefferson took office he didn't like the central bank but he never got rid of it either..

 

[Bonnieblue]

I like alot about Jefferson and definitely his opposition to banks is an obvious similarity to Ron, but the guy was a vicious defender of slavery, also in his second term as President he put a trade embargo on the British which sunk the economy, so I don't know, was he a good President or a bad one?

If one fears a Marxist attack on Jefferson because of "slavery," then based on that fear, one should not evoke the name of Jefferson in a Ron Paul campaign. Most Americans today know little to nothing about Jefferson. So the radical leftist soundbite - Jefferson was a slave owner - will turn the ignorant against him and then Dr. Paul. Americans of the 18th and 19th centuries, including our great intellects like Jefferson, were not, with the exception of men like Thomas Paine, ideologues. Ideologues are intolerant of ambiguity, i.e. Jefferson supported embargoes so he ain't one of us. Men like Jefferson were not such. I am a Jeffersonian, although I do not like the unfortunate neo-Lockean lines which he penned into the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence. I am a Jeffersonian because I support his agrarian understandings, his understanding that the people of a given state in convention assembled were the ultimate sovereigns in matters political, his understanding that the traditions, customs and habits of one generation were important to pass on to the next generation. Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, was the last Jeffersonian President. One should read his two inaugurals; they sound like Ron Paul.

 

[Muwahid]

The comparison, if I'm correct, is regarding the decentralization of the federal government, see there were early rifts in the American government, one that wanted more power (Alexander Hamilton) and those who wanted it to be limited (Jefferson), this was illustrated, when Hamilton led the charge for a central bank, which was heavily opposed by Jefferson and James Madison. So I think this is where the comparison comes into play.

Hard to gauge the founders views on slavery, many of them owned slaves - a time where some people were not considered humans, slavery is a black mark on America, but all civilizations had slavery, so to harp on it is a little unfair IMO - besides, slavery will always exist, it's just called different things now and different devices are used to enslave the mind and body. I mean lets face it, the entire prison system is basically slavery, how much to prisoners manufacture making oh what 3 cents a day?

 

[Okie RP fan]

I'm under the impression that the Jefferson comparison is more for the effect of Paul's genius and gentleman-like demeanor.

I'm sure that could be applied to many other Founders, and is a very simple comparison, but that's what I was under the impression of.

 

[jax]

In his day slavery was normal so I can't fault him for that when comparing him to modern people, its a different world now. The man wrote the single greatest document ever concieved by human intelligence, hard to argue against him

 

[Tod]

And we feel the need to compare Paul to anyone.....why?

 

[sailingaway]

We compare Ron to principles, obviously Ron doesn't endorse slavery. That's demagoguery. People who can't think are never going to like Ron, anyhow.

 

[sailingaway]

And we feel the need to compare Paul to anyone.....why?

and this

 

[Bonnieblue]

all of them had a cognitive dissonance about slaves.i guess they really believed blacks were non human.ie just chattel. so,no -they are not comparable to ron.who is a superior human being.but jefferson et al are also products of their time. some of their ideas were revolutionary.others were backward and ordinary.
so,there is no need to put him on a pedestal as a saint.we can acknowledge him for his ideas and contributions while fully recognizing his imperfections.

None of us, including Ron Paul whom I support and serve, are superior human beings. There is a dangerous ring of hubris about that; and who are we, what grand set of generations are we, to judge the actions and motives of men of the past. Jefferson and most Americans of the time did not believe that Africans were non-human.

What this discussion does show is that Jefferson is so misunderstood, even among those posting here, that he should not be used with Ron Paul. I regret that because scores of my intellectual friends who might be inclined to support Dr. Paul are Jeffersonians as are most Southerners deep down.

 

[phideaux-deux]

Umm, I resemble this thread.

TJ was not perfect, no one is.

I know this is "spin", but for the most part the slaves owned by the Founders were treated better and fared much better in life than their counterparts in "free" Africa.

I am a proud white Honkey but I lived in Africa for more than 2 years. The American descendants of slaves today live their lives light years beyond their cousins in Africa today. Just ask a dirt farmer in Zimbabwe. And you can't even ask the millions of Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda - they've been brutally slaughtered and butchered. Black-on-black tribalism is far more deadly than racism or even slavery. JMHO

 

[Bonnieblue]

I'm under the impression that the Jefferson comparison is more for the effect of Paul's genius and gentleman-like demeanor.

I'm sure that could be applied to many other Founders, and is a very simple comparison, but that's what I was under the impression of.

Jefferson was for specie currency.

Jefferson was for free trade.

Jefferson was against the national bank.

Jefferson was a strict constitutionalist and supported and exercised state nullification.

Jefferson opposed the Alien and Sedition acts.

Jefferson was a patriot and not a nationalist; his country was Virginia.

Jefferson believed in and fostered the Aristotelian understanding of "republic" overagainst the Hobbesian notion of the Leviathan.

 

[Aden]

Thomas Jefferson is my favorite president. That said, it is lame to dismiss his position on slavery as "just the way things were at the time." There was always a small minority of Americans who decried slavery and the screwing of natives. Therefore, those who supported slavery were in the wrong, period. No excuses. Downplaying Jefferson's views on slavery is akin to Americans 100 years from now stating, "yes Demint and those other guys were wrong on the wars. But you can't really blame them because all conservatives and most Americans believed the wars and the War on Terror were necessary." Hogwash. Just as we, the tireless minority are sticking up for truth (what the media calls "dangerous" positions), there were Americans sticking up for the rights of blacks and natives.

Ron Paul > every politician in the history of this country, including favorites of mine like Jefferson.

 

[specsaregood]

We're all slaves nowadays...

 

[Delivered4000]

To Jefferson's credit, he did sign the Slave Trade Abolition Act of 1807