Cannot square my sense of right and wrong with an Anti-Civil Rights Act position

So lets assume

Sorry but lets not.

It's been proven time and time again that business owners actually were trying to get the segregation to end because it was bad for their business.


Btw there are no guarantees in life. And we either choose freedom or slavery on a farm. Those are the only two options. And I for one choose freedom.
 
Sorry but lets not.

It's been proven time and time again that business owners actually were trying to get the segregation to end because it was bad for their business.


Btw there are no guarantees in life. And we either choose freedom or slavery on a farm. Those are the only two options. And I for one choose freedom.


I'm was asking a serious question about a philosophical issue, not based on any historical fact.

You obviously did not read my entire post and the replies and you would have understood where I was going.

You sound like a parrot, not someone who is willing to think critically about issues when you spout stuff like "It's only freedom or slavery on a farm.", assuming that these things are obvious.

They are not, they require critical thinking, this is why the masses don't get our message. So let's try and help each other, sound good?
 
When I wrote up my original post, I was sort of working under the assumption that compulsory discrimination laws could be put on the books. Alex helped to clear up my concern here with his video, which explains that the compulsory discrimination is a violation of someone's liberty, and therefore the government has the right to interfere in the situation.

Compulsory discrimination is the only situation I can think of in which my original scenario could realistically take place. So I accept that as long as compulsory discrimination is illegal, compulsory non-discrimination is not an issue.

From Wikipedia.

To recap for those hadn't seen the video, while I felt that compulsory non-discrimination is a violation of liberty, that the gain of liberty from ending compulsory discrimination was a far greater gain. So while like Barry Goldwater I'd have the same concerns, I would still vote for the bill cause I think overall it's a net gain for liberty.
 
Here's is what I am struggling with:

I do not believe in the application of force, in most cases.

I do believe in the application of force to stop an attack, however.

If two people are in a fight, sometimes it takes third party to step in and get in the middle, help the two sides to calm down, shake hands, and make up.

And that third party willingly places himself in harm's way by doing so.

Lets take the case of minorities being "attacked" by a majority due to their skin color by being excluded from all private businesses in some area.

How is that an attack? You need to get a dictionary.

If you have a minority, they inherently no not have the ability to change the laws of their locality.

Forget that you're jumping all over the place in terms of your... "logic:; what you claim is not necessarily true. This hypothetical town, we can call it "Klanville", s populated by people who have rights equal to that of anyone else. If they do not wish to do business with negroes, that is their choice. It may not be pretty, but it is still a fact. Mr. Negro is not entitled to be served by anyone who wishes not to do business with him, regardless of the reasons for it. While this may be objectionable to many, the facts stand. Either we have rights or we do not. If, perchance, all business in Klanville was done on a strictly personal basis - no stores or markets of any sort - what then? Force Johnny Crackerboy to sell his tomatoes to Mr. Negro? The premise is preposterous and wholly unsupportable.

If we say the federal government also has no power to change this due to private property rights, what is the minority left to do? To move? Grow their own food and build their own furniture and so on?

Perhaps such people are better served not moving to Klanville, just as Johnny Crackerboy is better served in not moving to Panthertown. You cannot force people to like each other or want to do business with each other.

You could say, well, *someone* will open up a grocery/furniture/pharmacy establishment that allows the minority in. But that is in no way guaranteed.

Them's the breaks. Freedom can be a real bitch at times.

So lets assume the minority has no access to any private business at all in their locality, and does not have the ability to move, and lets say they are alone, the only one. They can't get a job, they can't buy food, and so on.

Forgetting the utterly ridiculous nature of this scenario, the answer is simple: this is not a place for such a person to live happily. Move elsewhere.

Is there really no provision in our constitution that would protect minorities from this type of discrimination?

That would be affirmative. No such provision. Go online and try reading the Constitution and you will find that it is indeed the case. Don't just read, endeavor to properly understand.

[/quote]I cannot get my head around why that should be allowed in our society.[/quote]

Then you do not understand what it means to be a free man. You are probably an advocate for pretty slavery - probably not even aware of it, too, which would be the truly sad part.

Obviously, underlying my distress is a belief that no man is any less equal because of their skin color.

On this you are correct, which cuts both ways. Whitey is equally endowed with his rights and if he or anyone of any persuasion is not in the mood to trade with someone of a particular persuasion, it is their right not to.

You need to read the essay at the URL in my signature. You need is BADLY. If you are open minded, reasonable, and honest, there is then hope for you. :)

How can you hold both private property rights and the rights of free men to pursue happiness, in this sort of situation?

How can you not?

I understand that it is the "worst case" scenario, but I think it brings to the fore the underlying issues (and it reminds me of the caste system in India).

Your understanding of these issues is poor in the extreme. The good news for you is that this can be corrected. Conflating private property rights with the Indian caste system is simply bizarre. The one has nothing to do with the other, the latter being a legally institutionalized system of oppression, the former being a system where freedom of choice will at times produce results some people do not like. Life is tough at times. Get over it.
 
How can you hold both private property rights and the rights of free men to pursue happiness, in this sort of situation?
I understand that it is the "worst case" scenario, but I think it brings to the fore the underlying issues (and it reminds me of the caste system in India).

Well, while you present a disturbing situation, the truth is, in that situation, there is NOTHING the government can do.

1st do you really think the government would care? The government would be composed of individuals, individuals from the same totally uncaring communities. If you have a community that is that uncaring, the government will be no different. So the government wouldn't do anything to help the racial minority.

2nd, lets say this was an isolated geographical area and that the government was comprised of people from the rest of the US, who really did want to help. Would passing laws help? No....because laws don't change hearts or attitudes, and it would still be the local police who would be enforcing (or ignoring) existing laws. You mention the caste system in India, the caste system is ILLEGAL in India....yets its still widely practiced because the law didn't change hearts or attitudes, so the law is ignored and not enforced at the local level.

Besides, if a majority of the people in the US, apart from this geographical area cared, wouldn't they set up charities to pay for a bus to go in and bring out the racial minorities that were "stuck" there?

While the situation you describe is ethically disturbing, I don't see how government would make it better.
 
Here's is what I am struggling with:

I do not believe in the application of force, in most cases.

I do believe in the application of force to stop an attack, however.

If two people are in a fight, sometimes it takes third party to step in and get in the middle, help the two sides to calm down, shake hands, and make up.

Lets take the case of minorities being "attacked" by a majority due to their skin color by being excluded from all private businesses in some area. It is good that you put "attacked" in quotes, as it is nothing of the kind.

If you have a minority, they inherently no not have the ability to change the laws of their locality. If we say the federal government also has no power to change this due to private property rights, what is the minority left to do? To move? Grow their own food and build their own furniture and so on?

You could say, well, *someone* will open up a grocery/furniture/pharmacy establishment that allows the minority in. But that is in no way guaranteed.
The logical error here is the unrealistic rhetorical question "What if I am the only person that cares about them?" Of course, that is not the case, or the civil rights act itself would have never passed. It is the same type of moral superiority that a lot of well intentioned people employ to "do it for the children" or "we must do it to support democracy around the world" and so forth. Somehow, the majority is able to vote something into effect because they think that people left to themselves would not take care of it - if that is the case, why would people vote to support something that they would not do on their own? So that they can ALSO pay for a government bureaucracy to administer it?

So lets assume the minority has no access to any private business at all in their locality, and does not have the ability to move, and lets say they are alone, the only one. They can't get a job, they can't buy food, and so on.
No, that is an insane assumption, so let's not.

Is there really no provision in our constitution that would protect minorities from this type of discrimination? You mean is there anything in the Constitution to do away with the freedom of association? No, I don't think there is...

I cannot get my head around why that should be allowed in our society. and I can;t get my head around how you can;t get your head around it..

Obviously, underlying my distress is a belief that no man is any less equal because of their skin color. I believe the same thing, and my distress is that civil rights laws, and worse yet, affirmative action, do indeed make some less equal due to their skin color.

Others may not hold that view (racism). Bzzzt. Try again.

How can you hold both private property rights and the rights of free men to pursue happiness, in this sort of situation?

I understand that it is the "worst case" scenario, but I think it brings to the fore the underlying issues (and it reminds me of the caste system in India).

I think your premises and assumptions are way off, as noted above.
 
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