Can Tea Party reconcile libertarianism and social conservatism?

So I still can't understand what people who don't want a constitutional system are doing in the Liberty Forest forums. Perhaps they still have not read the mission statement?

The URL of the site is RonPaulForums.com and Ron Paul has expressly supported self-government and autarchism for a very long time, not to mention almost all of his close friends and allies are voluntaryists...

For heavens sake he brought in Thomas Woods a devout voluntaryist in to speak to Congress!
 
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The URL of the site is RonPaulForums.com and Ron Paul has expressly supported self-government and autarchism for a very long time, not to mention almost all of his close friends and allies are voluntaryists...

For heavens sake he brought in Thomas Woods a devout voluntaryist in to speak to Congress!

Ron Paul has been a Congressman for well over 20 years. He is a self-professed CONSTITUTIONALIST. Self-government is a concept that is very much alive with limited government, individual liberty and personal responsibility.

This is not anarchy-central. It is Ron Paul forums.
 
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My wiki cite quotes Murray! You assume I haven't read that just because I disagree?

And here is Murray's rebuttal if you wish to read.

Again, there's that 70's rehashing!

Remember when Murray, jealous of Nozick, commenced bashing?

That sure was a great, unproductive snit


for touchy, neurotic Murray to quit

because it was a waste of his fine wit.


I admire your patience AED, but logic, reason, and facts almost never sway anyone. When they're ready, they come along on their own.

Thanks for the insult, so cleverly disguised

However you should be advised

That failure to debate minarchism in verse

Will get you rocked, pwned, beaten,

and schooled, or perhaps worse!


The most vicious critics of Nozick are certainly his fellow Libertarians, including Murray Rothbard who Nozick refers to as important in converting him to a Libertarian point of view.

Though I was already acquainted with the idea that Capitalist Libertarians/Anarcho-Capitalists are a quarrelsome lot and that most of them are on the fringe of the academic world, I was startled by the response of Libertarians to Nozick. Nozick is by some way the most distinguished representative of that point of view in academic philosophy.

Murray Rothbard, and his followers, express great jealousy of Nozick’s success, claiming that Rothbard’s Ethics of Liberty is a more important book.

Anyone who compares Rothbard’s book with Nozick really ought to feel embarrassed for Rothbard, and his followers, that they could be so self-deceiving and foolish as to think Rothbard’s book is better. His method of argument is constant restatement of the view that the state is unnecessary, and that left to themselves, people will create better voluntary arrangements.

His method of dealing with different points of view is to insult them and to fall back on an analogy between the state and a supplier of goods or services in a market economy based on rules of a kind which have always been enforced by the state. Just like Anarcho-Communists, Rothbard relies on natural intuitions of Natural Law to substitute for the role of the state. Again the universality of these intuitions is asserted rather than argued for.


The fact that Nozick’s book is composed from a variety of detailed arguments for his position is used against him by the Rothbardians, apparently people just read those arguments separately which is supposedly easier than reading Rothbard’s book through. There is nothing difficult about Rothbard’s book apart from the boredom resulting from his constant under argued assertions.

Jealousy is never far from the surface.

The fact that Rothbard never had a job at a famous institution clearly embittered him and his followers. Rothbard appears to have been a generous and inspiring person in some respects, but somewhat lacking in a sense of proportion about his importance and the quality of his essentially polemical work. Nozick was a professor at Harvard, and even worse is very generous about the work of his famous left-liberal colleague John Rawls.

Generosity to non-Libertarians is not widespread in Libertarian culture; they find it hard enough to be generous to each other. Nozick appears to have been a sensitive, understanding and well rounded individual who did not try to dominate other people or establish a clique of loyal followers. He was certainly a misfit on Planet Libertarian


Robert%20Nozick.jpg


"Robert Nozick [1938–2002] almost single-handedly made libertarian political philosophy respectable within mainstream academia with the 1974 publication of his now classic Anarchy, State and Utopia, which garnered a National Book Award the following year. Anarchy, State and Utopia argues, among other things, that a distribution of goods is just so long as the distribution was brought about by free exchanges by consenting adults, even if large inequalities emerge from the process. Nozick here challenges John Rawls's arguments in A Theory of Justice that conclude that inequalities must at least make the worst off better off in order to be morally justified.

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415R7MJ7FML._SL500_AA300_.jpg


nozick_poster-p228706255621900345tdcp_400.jpg

 
It's a war of strategy and I belive that non-cooperation, civil disobedience, and withdrawal of consent, along with secession is a far better alternative than playing the game thats rigged (It'll accomplish both of our stated goals). If you wish to put your effort in the latter, by all means do so, but I think the former strategy will be vindicated by being the most successful, and hence, voluntaryism the more successful movement over constitutionalism, even though we may agree on 90% of what must be done. I see the effort of civil disobedience being a proxy of more freedom for everyone, and thus, the voluntaryist society will come about, and you can have your constitutional system if you want, but don't think for a second you will force me into your system.

As long as you leave me in peace and do not initiate force against my secession from the State, then we have no quarrel. You leave me in peace, I leave you in peace. I just hope you would join in the civ. dis. and non-cooperation. I recommend Etienne de La Boetie & Henry David Thoreau.

So basically, you are saying that you are opposed to what Ron Paul is doing and his belief that we need to work towards reinstating our Constitutional republic? Not to mention the fact that you are opposed to this forum's mission statement.

Interesting.
 
Here we go again.

"Burn the witches!"

Not at all. But, if you are going to stand in opposition to what this forum's mission statement is and what Ron Paul is trying to do, I think it's appropriate to illuminate that fact.
 
Support the Constitution, or GTFO and DIAF.

Here we go again.

"Burn the witches!"

Annoying anarchist trolls

while swelling the RPF rolls

will someday have to atone

for the energy they waste

polluting this place

with cries of "victimization"

and "OMGZ which-hunting!!1" moans.
 
So basically, you are saying that you are opposed to what Ron Paul is doing and his belief that we need to work towards reinstating our Constitutional republic? Not to mention the fact that you are opposed to this forum's mission statement.

Interesting.

Personally, I think politics, state/jury/police nullification, civil disobedience, agorism, etc, are all valuable strategies.

It's hard to imagine how someone can see what RP has accomplished and say politics can't be effective.
 
Ron Paul has been a Congressman for well over 20 years. He is a self-professed CONSTITUTIONALIST.

A constitutionalist who says "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is.", when asked "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution?"

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=220029

This is not anarchy-central. It is Ron Paul forums.

AKA, Liberty forest. There are many different kinds of trees in this forest. :)
 
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Personally, I think politics, state/jury/police nullification, civil disobedience, agorism, etc, are all valuable strategies.

It's hard to imagine how someone can see what RP has accomplished and say politics can't be effective.

+1

Ron Paul is clearly one of the best and most effective messengers of Liberty, and his 2008 run for president was one of the most effective marketing campaigns for liberty, ever! There is serious value in using politics to educate.
 
AKA, Liberty forest. There are many different kinds of trees in this forest. :)

Absolutely. As long as we are not working against each other. I'm supporting Ron Paul and what he has suggested. The forum mission statement was designed to be aligned with Dr. Paul's beliefs. Yet, some seem to want to trounce all over it and I find that curious.

Are we here to work together to achieve those goals, or are some here for some other purpose?
 
Personally, I think politics, state/jury/police nullification, civil disobedience, agorism, etc, are all valuable strategies.

It's hard to imagine how someone can see what RP has accomplished and say politics can't be effective.

We absolutely agree on that. :)
 
lolol

So what? The younger generation voted for OBAMA. IN HERDS!!

Hey, you guys started this BS of taking pot shots at the older generation. I'm just showing the fallacy of the comments made.

The difference between McCain and Obama is far less than the difference between either of them and Ron Paul. To condemn one generation for having voted for one of the big government candidates more than the others is a red herring, as all generations are equally guilty of choosing what they believed to be the lesser of two evils. On the other hand, those exit polls demonstrate a clear trend that the younger generation preferred Ron Paul significantly more than the older generations did in every one of the early primary states where such info is available. It is best not to alienate the base of Ron Paul's key supporters, considering that they will become an ever-increasing portion of the electorate over time.
 
Absolutely. As long as we are not working against each other. I'm supporting Ron Paul and what he has suggested. The forum mission statement was designed to be aligned with Dr. Paul's beliefs. Yet, some seem to want to trounce all over it and I find that curious.

Are we here to work together, or are some here for some other purpose?

I support RP's effort to restore the constitution, thereby reducing the scope and role of government, and restoring many of the liberties we have lost. I think his chosen method of politics is one of many effective methods, which are best used in conjuction with each other.

I think constitutionalists/minarchists/paleos, etc, who I may not agree with on every issue, are nonetheless helping to move the country in the right direction, and I appreciate and support their efforts (or, almost all of their efforts anyway -- I wouldn't support an AZ style immigration law, for example).
 
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The difference between McCain and Obama is far less than the difference between either of them and Ron Paul. To condemn one generation for having voted for one of the big government candidates more than the others is a red herring, as all generations are equally guilty of choosing what they believed to be the lesser of two evils. On the other hand, those exit polls demonstrate a clear trend that the younger generation preferred Ron Paul significantly more than the older generations did in every one of the early primary states where such info is available. It is best not to alienate the base of Ron Paul's key supporters, considering that they will become an ever-increasing portion of the electorate over time.

Again, I was responding to the individual who chose to once again, take pot shots at the older generation. Wishing them to "DIE OFF". So, perhaps you should direct your comment to THAT PERSON.

I will point out the fallacy in such comments about older Americans, each and every time that I see them.
 
Thanks for the insult, so cleverly disguised

However you should be advised

That failure to debate minarchism in verse

Will get you rocked, pwned, beaten,

and schooled, or perhaps worse!


Ah yes, and calling another's comments "anarchist twaddle" is to be construed as some kind of compliment, I suppose?
 
A constitutionalist who says "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is.", when asked "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution?"

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=220029


Clay, what you don't seem to grasp is that self-government is largely what our Founders designed for us. We were always intended to primarily govern ourselves. Government was supposed to be very small and extremely limited in it's scope. You have just taken the concept to the extreme and claimed the concept as an anarchist concept and that just is not reality.
 
Again, I was responding to the individual who chose to once again, take pot shots at the older generation. Wishing them to "DIE OFF". So, perhaps you should direct your comment to THAT PERSON.

I will point out the fallacy in such comments about older Americans, each and every time that I see them.

Here is the specific quote that you responded to:
They are not going to reconcile politically.

The tea party is aged and their generations are going out of power. The younger generations are more agreeable with the liberty philosophy and self ownership. The more the older generations piss off the younger generations with their big government bullshit the harder the older generations are going to get screwed on their way out the door of political power.

That isn't wishing for the older generations to "die off". It is simply stating the obvious fact that younger people are more receptive to the freedom message than older people, something that primary polls have confirmed and even Ron Paul agrees with. Unfortunately we as a species have not achieved immortality, so it would only stand to reason that older people will pass away at a higher rate than younger people, and younger people will register to vote at a higher rate than older people. As unfortunate as this is, the exit polls show that a liberty candidate has a much better shot at winning a primary, and hence the general election, when the younger people of today make up a larger percentage of the voting population.
 
Absolutely. As long as we are not working against each other.

I agree. :)

I'm supporting Ron Paul and what he has suggested. The forum mission statement was designed to be aligned with Dr. Paul's beliefs. Yet, some seem to want to trounce all over it and I find that curious.
Are we here to work together to achieve those goals, or are some here for some other purpose?

The mission statement was poorly designed, imo, and was a clear source of controversy from day one. I believe that statement, and your willingness to constantly bring it into our conversations, creates a lot of controversy and divisiveness. We've been through this before, we don't need to go there again. :)

I support limiting/abolishing government actions. I support Individual Liberty, to it's fullest extent. I support all of Ron Pauls efforts to educate, and all of the websites he tells us to read. (mises, lew rockewell, rothbard, scheuer etc). I am here to learn and find out how to further promote liberty, ever since Ron Paul woke me up in 2007. :)
 
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