Can a Christian support torture?

[Christian Liberty]

Then he would be wrong, but would not have committed adultery.

Would you at least question whether the guy who says that is Christian?

 

[specsaregood]

mebbe we need a poll to measure support for torture on RPF's?
I have not seen any.
unless of course, voting is an act of torture.

If you do, then you need to be careful to define torture. many of the pro-kill maniacs are arguing that what the CIA did wasn't torture and that they too against torture.

in the breitbart thing they are arguing that it is only torture if you only want to inflict pain, as long as you have a goal of extracting information then its all good.

 

[Crashland]

If you do, then you need to be careful to define torture. many of the pro-kill maniacs are arguing that what the CIA did wasn't torture and that they too against torture.

in the breitbart thing they are arguing that it is only torture if you only want to inflict pain, as long as you have a goal of extracting information then its all good.

I don't understand how these people think like that. If they are going to try and justify it, by all means make the argument, but to try and weasel around calling it for what it is, is intellectually dishonest. And it's an insult to any of our own soldier POWs who have been subject to "enhanced interrogation" in other countries, to tell them it's not torture.

 

[HVACTech]

If you do, then you need to be careful to define torture. many of the pro-kill maniacs are arguing that what the CIA did wasn't torture and that they too against torture.

in the breitbart thing they are arguing that it is only torture if you only want to inflict pain, as long as you have a goal of extracting information then its all good.

it is my understanding, that polluting the local language is a propaganda tactic.
it confuses people when they cannot communicate.
wrangling over the exact meaning of the words used. gives power.
is this "torture" ?



no.

 

[mosquitobite]

I argued with a guy from my church earlier today and said how can a nation that professes to be a so-called Christian nation tolerate such barbarism? How is it we would condemn an Arab for these acts and yet look the other way when it is our own? How do we chant that they are savages and yet have such a disconnect from our own savagery?

No tax dollars for abortion, but by golly it's ok to fund crimes against humanity!

 

[Christian Liberty]

I argued with a guy from my church earlier today and said how can a nation that professes to be a so-called Christian nation tolerate such barbarism? How is it we would condemn an Arab for these acts and yet look the other way when it is our own? How do we chant that they are savages and yet have such a disconnect from our own savagery?

No tax dollars for abortion, but by golly it's ok to fund crimes against humanity!

I refused to even debate this one with people at my school. I'm too angry to debate this right now. Not with its supporters. I'd rather discuss with people who agree this is barbaric on what the right way of dealing with the people who support it is.

From the CNN page:

A glimpse of these techniques details how the CIA employed sleep deprivation to wear down victims: It "involved keeping detainees awake for up to 180 hours,usually standing or in stress positions, at times with their hands shackled above their heads."
Other techniques included "rectal rehydration," "ice water 'baths,'" and threatening detainees with threats to harm detainees' families, including threats to "sexually abuse the mother of a detainee," according to the summary of the report.
Related:'This is not America'
Other psychological tactics involved keeping detainees in pitch-black rooms "with loud noise or music and only a bucket to use for human waste."
And the rooms were cold -- freezing.
One detainee, "who had been held partially nude and chained to a concrete floor" died in Nov. 2002 from suspected hypothermia.
CIA detainees who underwent these interrogation tactics were later found to experience "hallucinations, paranoia, insomnia and attempts at self-harm and self-mutilation."
Medical personnel were sidelined and their concerns quieted when it came to coercive interrogations -- which the report says took precedent.
The waterboardings of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed became, according to the report,"a series of near-drownings." Mohammed was waterboarded at least 183 times.
Related:McCain makes passionate defense for torture report's release
Another detainee, Abu Zubaydah, became unconscious and nearly died while he was waterboarded by CIA personnel.
"In at least one waterboarding session, Abu Zubaydah 'became completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth,'" the committee reports. "[He] remained unresponsive until medical intervention, when he regained consciousness and expelled "copious amounts of liquid."
Videotape of Zubaydah's two waterboarding sessions during a 21-hour period disappeared from the CIA's records.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/polit...torture-report/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=0

I cannot fathom how a decent person could be OK with this whether Christian or not...

 

[Dr.3D]

Let me know when y'all have quantified every sin in a spreadsheet, and ordered them with respect to repulsiveness.

They are all equally wrong to a just God.

 

[pcosmar]

Can a Christian support torture?

I do not believe so.

it is possible for someone professing to be a Christian to do so,, many have.

I am not the final judge. And it is my consolation that there is one.

 

[Christian Liberty]

They are all equally wrong to a just God.

So you are saying that somebody who steals a pack of bubble gum is in the same moral category as someone who engages in brutal torture?

That's insane, and its not Biblical. This is part of why SOME crimes in the OT were punished by death, but not all.

 

[donnay]

Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Leviticus 19:18 - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

Romans 12:20 - Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Luke 6:27 - But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luke 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Matthew 5:9 - Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

 

[Crashland]

They are all equally wrong to a just God.

So you are saying that somebody who steals a pack of bubble gum is in the same moral category as someone who engages in brutal torture?

That's insane, and its not Biblical. This is part of why SOME crimes in the OT were punished by death, but not all.

The biblical understanding is that the wages of sin is death. But that concept is eternal punishment and is fundamentally different from how we would think about carrying out earthly punishments (up to and including, capital punishment)

 

[Crashland]

I believe that for almost any act, if not every act, there exists a situation in which it could potentially be justified. If Christianity allows for taking justified actions, then for any X, I don't see how it would be possible to claim "true Christians can never do X"

 

[Christian Liberty]

The biblical understanding is that the wages of sin is death. But that concept is eternal punishment and is fundamentally different from how we would think about carrying out earthly punishments (up to and including, capital punishment)

I agree. Even in Hell, though, the Bible talks about differing levels of punishment based on knowledge.

 

[otherone]

The question is not whether a true Christian can support torture -- the question is whether a true Christian can decide to choose between two evils (the lesser). I voted Yes, but being here on RPF I would imagine the response would be disproportionately "no", at least disproportionally compared to the general population. Many libertarians don't like choosing between two evils

I believe that for almost any act, if not every act, there exists a situation in which it could potentially be justified. If Christianity allows for taking justified actions, then for any X, I don't see how it would be possible to claim "true Christians can never do X"

The reality is that sometimes we must choose the lesser of two evils. The tragedy is believing that this somehow makes the lesser evil righteous.

 

[Dr.3D]

Yeah right, some things are more wrong than others?

What kind of scale can measure those differences in wrong?

If the person stealing the pack up gum knew it was wrong, then it's the same as if he murdered somebody. He knew it was wrong.

There is right and there is wrong.

Are we able to balance wrong with right? Can we do something wrong and then do something of equal value that is right and come to a balance again?

 

[Crashland]

What kind of scale can measure those differences in wrong?

You can always measure it in monetary damage, or bruise and broken bone count.

 

[Dr.3D]

You can always measure it in monetary damage, or bruise and broken bone count.

If it were only this easy to measure wrong.

And if reparation is paid the sin was never committed? I only know of ONE who would be qualified to pay that debt and He did.

 

[Crashland]

If it were only this easy to measure wrong.

And if reparation is paid the sin was never committed? I only know of ONE who would be qualified to pay that debt and He did.

That's great, but you're missing the point. We're making a distinction here between eternal punishment and earthly punishment. It is entirely appropriate to measure earthly debts incurred for earthly repayment.

 

[euphemia]

I can't really answer this question. I do not like the idea of cruelty to a person or animal and could not personally do anything that resembles torture.

What the government does to defend and protect the Constitution might require extraordinary measures. There has always been a lot of trickery and cloak-and-dagger stuff done on behalf of a nation. I wouldn't say the Bible condemns all of it. Treacherous people have to be dealt with treacherously.

I think the government is the agent that should prevent me from having to take part in personally repulsive activities. That would include killing preborn babies and snatching healthy infants from their homes. The government forces me to be a party to that.

I would love it if the US closed ranks, defended the borders and left the rest of the world alone. They don't do that, and they don't leave me alone. I'm not sure what I think.

That's probably not helpful.

 

[Working Poor]

I don't see how anyone could "support" torture especially those who claim to be in touch with the love of God.