Building codes saved lives in Chile earthquake. Are building codes anti-freedom?

I think it is more building standards, not codes per say. Not so long ago here in the US people could order a mail order kit to build their house with. All by themselves without licensed plumbers,carpenters, etc.

bungalowplan-s-randolphsm.jpg
 
I think it is more building standards, not codes per say. Not so long ago here in the US people could order a mail order kit to build their house with. All by themselves without licensed plumbers,carpenters, etc.

bungalowplan-s-randolphsm.jpg

You can still order and build prefab homes. And some parts of the country don't have codes. I have relatives that live in an area that just defeated an ordinance that would have required zoning codes. It's way off the beaten path though.
 
You cannot compare Haiti with the United States, we have somthing (or used to) that they have never had in my opinion. We have rule of law. Haiti is nothing but corruption, so the people are not truly free. You can only be free when you have rule of law.

Thus, if Haiti had rule of law the people would likely be more prosperous and demand more stable structures with thier purchasing dollars. This would be true if Haitans believed an earthquake was a danger. If they didn't then they probably wouldn't have worried about it. When I lived in California we strapped furniture to the wall and made sure our dwelling was safe. We paid extra to do so.
 
As a structural engineer, I'll give my perspective. It should be obvious that building safety is most highly correlated with wealth. One of my professors just got back from Haiti, and I've read his report. I'm sure Monday he'll bring it up.

Basically Haiti, unlike say the US or Chile, does not design for earthquakes. They don't even teach it in schools. When engineers over there use standard building codes, which is rare, they use French codes because of the language barrier. Unfortunately France is not a high seismic zone and seismic design is really not present in their codes.

Concrete or masonry is their primary construction material because it is cheap, but for concrete to resist any tensile loads it depends on steel reinforcing. Steel reinforced concrete can provide great seismic performance, but it has to be properly detailed and steel is not cheap, and thus their buildings are (were) heavily underreinforced.

It is undeniable that a building code, if followed, would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Would it have been followed is another question. The report I read told the story of the American inspectors finding masons rebuilding structures in the exact same manner as the one next door which completely collapsed. Building codes without enforcement, and without engineers who follow them are useless. The best solution for Haiti is to open a school that teaches seismic design in my opinion.

Personally, I do not have major issues with building codes. They are not written by the government for one thing. The steel industry (AISC) writes recommend specifications for steel structures and the concrete industry (ACI) writes recommendations for concrete specifications. The ICC, a non-profit, writes the International Building Code which has been adopted in all US states as far as I am aware. They do not have a monopoly on the code. States are welcome to adopt whatever code they like. States an municipalities can provide amendments to the code. If, for example, a city doesn't think the code adequately predicts the maximum snow loads they can specify their own requirements.

Should the federal government adopt a standard code? No. Should states? I guess, so long as they allow municipalities to amend it.

Should it be completely privatized? I think privatization would work, but at least as far as structural building codes go, I hardly think this is a winning libertarian issue, or one worth a fight.
 
To those concerned about structural codes handicapping potential innovators; it is a fair point. But there a few intricacies that prevent it from being a serious issue. There is a lot of competition between the steel code and the concrete code. If someone invents something that can provide the same performance for less cost the two committees are pretty quick to adopt it. After all, if they don't, then a building might not be as cost effective to be built out of their material and the owner will choose the other.

The other point is that the codes allow for deviation if the engineer of record can prove that it is safe. This process of proof is costly, but many times it is still cost effective. Proof can entail lab tests, field investigations, wind tunnel modeling, and I believe detailed computer modeling. Maybe it's because its my profession, but I am pretty impressed with the structures we can build safely.
 
It's a difficult issue. I like the idea of hiring my own inspector/design reviewer to make sure that everything is sound, when I am building for myself.

On the other hand, I do not trust others. Builders, landlords, sellers, etc, will often take the cheapest route, safety be damned. That is the free-market. "I can make it safe, or I can make it cheap". The reality is that in many situations, "cheap" is the choice.
 
Wow, 3 answers within 3 minutes of posting this. Thanks for the fast response.

But how do we convince the general public that reducing the size of government and ending regulations will ensure our buildings, cars, airplanes, etc are safe?

The rapid leftist Democrat/progressive/liberal/commie will never accept the idea that private citizens and free markets will provide safe goods. Government is God and all that Government regulates is good. Not regulated = evil.

But more reasonable people who haven't completely accepted our liberty agenda need to be assured that buildings won't collapse in a free market environment.

Because most people cannot imagine a world where government doesn't pay for the following:

What do you think taxpayer money should be spent on...
Here's my list:

Essentials:
Welfare
Healthcare
Law Enforcement
Defense
Education
and Corporate regulation.

I've come to understand most people believe becoming President, Senator, Congressman or Public Servant instantaneously turns said people into experts about every possible trade specialization on the planet, including those not yet invented. They don't question why they believe it, nor are they able to see how unrealistic it is to have this belief. Heck, they don't even realize this is what they believe!

Take for example, child labor laws. Government loves to take credit for saving all those poor downtrodden children from having to work via the creation of local and federal child labor laws. However, even a cursory inspection of our government's very own census records clearly shows a sharp decline of children ages 10-16 participating in the workforce at a time well before any child labor laws were ever put into place (early 1900s). Further, if you dig just a little more you will find those opposed to such laws were mothers, fathers and clergy. They saw this kind of interference, rightly so, as an encroachment upon liberty. Those advocating for such laws were other ADULT union groups who didn't like the extra competition, they wanted this work all for themselves.

But, the majority of people are too busy and uninterested to be inconvenienced with facts. It is much easier to just get along and go along. They don't research their opinions and they don't base them on facts. They base their opinion on whoever makes them "feel" the best about themselves and whatever opinion gets the most people to agree with them.
 
Wow, 3 answers within 3 minutes of posting this. Thanks
But more reasonable people who haven't completely accepted our liberty agenda need to be assured that buildings won't collapse in a free market environment.


I do exactly what you suggested people might do without government building code. (I live in LA) Every time I walk into a building I wonder, will this building stand a big earthquake?

The science of Buildings vs Earthquakes is a slow process. Most buildings, sure - many of them are designed by some brilliant minds, but few have stood the test of a 8.8 earthquake.

I'd love to see the day when I can shop around for a condo/house with a sticker on the front proclaiming a reasonably accurate earthquake resistence rating.

In a lot of ways, this discussion reminds me of the FDA. Another institution that makes some people feel all warm and fuzzy inside and couldn't imagine living without, but has done it's share of damage and deception.
 
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The National Electric Code is produced by the National Fire Protection Association. This code is accepted (i.e., legally enforced) by localities throughout the country.

The NFPA was formed in 1896 by a group of insurance firm representatives with the stated purpose of standardizing the new and burgeoning market of fire sprinkler systems.

I think that's pretty huge. If you wire something improperly enough, you could have people getting killed by touching wall plates. Yet the electric standards that are (unfortunately) legally enforced by most of the country are written by the free market.


I have a friend who is in construction inspection. He started out inspecting EIFS, an exterior wall finish which has a history of ending up in lawsuits. It was marketed as a cheap stucco. But installers found out the hard way that if you don't use skilled laborers to put it up, it causes water issues and destroys the building - and if you do use skilled labor, the construction cost savings over traditional stucco vanish.

The end result is that it's still used, a lot, but only on commercial buildings. Home builders don't use it that much (except on McMansions) because it's not a whole lot cheaper for small buildings and it has a history. Large buildings use it a lot, because when you factor in sheer surface area, it's cheaper.

So there you have it: the market reacted. You had a few people lose houses over this, but they went through the court system and got compensated (but I'm not saying the court system used has to be the one we have, either). And the market figured out it can't use this building material for certain applications.

And I'll bet that those not in construction had no idea this stuff even existed.
 
The question is not whether citizens are capable of taking care of themselves (though that's what the collective wants you to believe) but whether we want to do it ourselves.

You said it right there, it becomes "burdonsome" because it is a responsibility.

Do you give your responsibilities over to people you don't know? Is that responsible?

I personally find it hard to believe the people can be responsible on their own, without mama government looking out, but I am also aware that this is programming. This is a social phenomenon that's been shown on a large scale many times. It's been argued for thousands of years.

Examples:

Aristotle believed slavery was natural

"But is there any one thus intended by nature to be a slave, and for whom such a condition is expedient and right, or rather is not all slavery a violation of nature?

There is no difficulty in answering this question, on grounds both of reason and of fact. For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule." - Aristotle

People believed african slaves needed to be ruled as well, and when they were finally freed (in many nations) there was a belief they couldn't take care of themselves.

These ideas all stem from a psychological rationalization. People see others "accepting" of oppression, and then come to believe that is what they desire, or need. We now have it on a smaller scale in United States. An overall amnesia of the past, this belief that we need the government to protect us, control us, and regulate us.

I think a more rational method would be, every person needs to get assurance as to the safety and viability of what they pay for. If a person or company lies, or cuts corners to gain profit at the expense of safety, they have commited a crime.

Something socialists like Jon Stewart, or Olbermann, or Nancy Pelosi do not understand is that individual rights, and individual freedom does not mean anarchy. It does not mean that people have a right to harm others. Government exists for just that purpose, to be an objective third party that can maintain justice, without vigilantism.

The basic edict of individual rights, is that

You have no right to harm others. No one has a right to harm you. The government exists to preserve those two points.

We don't need government to preserve our rights. Rather government should be a more effective method when in a society.

Unfortunately this idea of the purpose of government as Locke said in the 1600s, and was lifted into the Constitution, "to protect life, liberty, and property" has been lost. Now it's become the progressive platform of Teddy Roosevelt,

"The supreme duty of the nation is the conservation of human resources through an enlightened measure of social and industrial justice." -Opening sentence of the official platform of the Progressive Party, 1912.

aka: make laws punishing businessmen and their businesses, to preserve the poor working man. That is America's main purpose now.

Social Security, Welfare, Unemployment, Medicare, Workers Compensation, Health Insurance, war against nations that aren't advancing our goals of helping the working class, bailouts to businesses to help employment, bigger government for better employment, more taxes and debt spending to give to the poor, and fund all peripheral efforts for the poor. What is called corporatism, is a deal between government and business leaders to make the businesses fall in line with the government, in their ever expanding authority, with the kickbacks to those businesses. It is a trick, that the government is now the unions and the Pinkertons. With fancy titles given to the two sides, warring for ultimate control of resources they have stolen.

That is all America is now.

The idea that even one measure of American government would get off the back of industry is laughable at this point. It is as Obama said, to make a point and prove America loves this system;

"We can set up a system where food was probably cheaper than it is right now, if we just eliminated meat inspectors. And we eliminated any regulations in terms of how food's distributed and how it's stored. I'll bet in terms of drug prices, we would definitely reduce prescription drug prices if we didn't have a drug administration that's make sure that we trust the drugs so that they don't kill us. But we don't do that. We make some decisions to protect consumers in every aspect of our lives. And we have bipartisan support for doing it." -Obama during the health insurance summit 2/25/10

We don't do that. America is the nation of epic regulation, red tape, and bureaucracy. Obama is right. He can and will put forth more and more regulation against your liberty, because that is what we do.

Thanks for the great reply; quote-worthy material.

Many great replies from everyone. The info about the building codes was informative. I'm bumping this up, just so everyone can have the opportunity to read some of the responses.

I recall my cousin's daughter went on a mission trip to Haiti about 5 years ago. She showed pictures of how they helped some poor rural family build a house. They gathered rocks for the foundation/lower part of the wall, plastered them together. Then used sticks and branches for the structure. I'm kind of skeptical of these mission trips, where the heathen locals get converted to Christianity by some foreign school kids. So if this family really did live in this rock and stick shack, they were probably safer than people in a concrete high rise.
 
Some more interesting info I learned today. My professor is back and he only spent a few minutes on Haiti since he is going to have a seminar on it at a later date. I don't really have new info on Haiti besides what I mentioned earlier. Though one major flaw in their reinforced concrete structures is that their rebar is smooth. Compare with US rebar which has bumps to prevent pullout; this is bad.

A more interesting thing I learned was in regards to Chile. Engineers here in Seattle are especially interested in the Chilean earthquake because the "big one" that threatens Seattle is a subduction zone type earthquake; the same type that hit Chile. (Another Spanish-speaking professor will be going there.) The return period is much less frequent than Chile, but the response might be similar.

I'm not exactly sure why exactly, it could simply be related to the frequency of Chilean earthquakes, but there is a cultural tendency to think about how a given building might perform in an earthquake by the lay person over there. Though some people in this thread admitted to doing this, the vast proportion of Americans tend to not think about such things. They have a trust in building codes and engineers.

I don't think their trust in necessarily misplaced, but it certainly affects the market. Where a Chilean might see a skinny looking column and decide against renting a space on the 30th floor, an American renter does not have the same reaction. He is more concerned about the floor space are larger column takes up. This interaction has the effect of overly conservative structures in Chile compared to the US.

Given the magnitude of the earthquake, normalizing for wealth, Chilean infrastructure has performed well. It was lucky that the epicenter was not under a large city, but the earthquake had some 800 times the energy of Haiti. 800 is a lot. Think about the difference between one nuke on Hiroshima and 800.

I like this quote: "Earthquake don't kill people. Badly design and constructed structures kill people."
 
If someone invents something that can provide the same performance for less cost the two committees are pretty quick to adopt it. After all, if they don't, then a building might not be as cost effective to be built out of their material and the owner will choose the other.

Ever look into hempcrete?

Probably a bit expensive, but it would be a lot cheaper if we could grow it here.

I should be able to use hempcrete, even though it might be more expensive, it is stronger.
 
I heard about it a while ago. Not sure where, I wouldn't be surprised if it was here. ;) But I never looked into it in detail.

Wikipedia says it is not stronger than regular concrete in compression, though it is better in tension (which isn't saying much).

Still, you will find no argument from me that its ban should be lifted. Sounds like it would have tons of potential applications. For building owners into the green LEED thing, it would be a great material since it is carbon negative. The production of cement is highly energy intensive and anything that negates that will be popular.

But you are not going to see hempcrete high rises. ;)
 
I just read that the Chile earthquake shifted the Earth's axis by 3 degrees shortening the days by
1.26 microseconds. Crazy!!!
 
I just read that the Chile earthquake shifted the Earth's axis by 3 degrees shortening the days by
1.26 microseconds. Crazy!!!

Or

Is it the axis shift that is causing the earthquakes?
 
Wow, 3 answers within 3 minutes of posting this. Thanks for the fast response.

But how do we convince the general public that reducing the size of government and ending regulations will ensure our buildings, cars, airplanes, etc are safe?

The rapid leftist Democrat/progressive/liberal/commie will never accept the idea that private citizens and free markets will provide safe goods. Government is God and all that Government regulates is good. Not regulated = evil.

But more reasonable people who haven't completely accepted our liberty agenda need to be assured that buildings won't collapse in a free market environment.

From a strategic point of view, why should building codes be anywhere in the first 10,000 things we'd want to repeal anyway? There are a zillion other things more damaging to life, property, and liberty. Focus on those. Once you get people on board for those, they'll be informed enough to understand the hard cases.
 
From a strategic point of view, why should building codes be anywhere in the first 10,000 things we'd want to repeal anyway? There are a zillion other things more damaging to life, property, and liberty. Focus on those. Once you get people on board for those, they'll be informed enough to understand the hard cases.

Liberty candidates will be subjected to all kinds of abuse from the liberal media and their statist opponents. They will be asked questions like: "So, you want to let anyone build any sort of structure without building codes and government regulations protecting the public? Are you crazy?"

Every one of us needs to know how to respond to the liberals saying that reducing the size of government will cause crisis, calamity and chaos. If we are serious about ending the income tax and replacing it with nothing, government will have to be dramatically reduced in size. Ending all of the unneeded government agencies will mean ending regulations, such as building codes.

There were many excellent comments in this thread, I hope people can use them when debating this stuff with liberals.
 
Liberty candidates will be subjected to all kinds of abuse from the liberal media and their statist opponents. They will be asked questions like: "So, you want to let anyone build any sort of structure without building codes and government regulations protecting the public? Are you crazy?"

Every one of us needs to know how to respond to the liberals saying that reducing the size of government will cause crisis, calamity and chaos. If we are serious about ending the income tax and replacing it with nothing, government will have to be dramatically reduced in size. Ending all of the unneeded government agencies will mean ending regulations, such as building codes.

There were many excellent comments in this thread, I hope people can use them when debating this stuff with liberals.

They can take a cue from Rand Paul and say no. Fight one battle at a time.
 
FACT: Wealthier people buy/build more structurally sound buildings.

FACT: Government building codes simply add regulatory costs to the construction of buildings, making structurally sound buildings more expensive and more out of reach to the poor.
 
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