Boston Mayor to Outlaw Chick-Fil-A

I'm curious, though. Let's say Cathy instituted a policy of not serving known homosexuals in his restaurants (assuming the Civil Rights Act never existed). Now, I'd support his right to do this based upon private property rights, as I assume you would, as well. But would you support his decision on an individual level? And even if you did, would you consider such an action to be an example of bigotry?

This is the crux of the matter. Yes, people have a right to dislike gay people. Yes, people should have the right to refuse service to anyone, for anyone reason. Yes, doing so for a reason as ridiculous as the color of their skin or who they find sexually attractive is completely insane.

That someone feels the need to even speak, through implication or directly, in any sort of negative light about homosexuals seems completely moronic to me. It's such a non-issue.
 
I'm going to stop you at the first sentence. Heterosexuality, by definition, is a lifestyle. Being black is not.

I think I agree with this. If I were gay, I could be gay without anyone knowing about it. If I were black, I wouldn't have that luxury.

Now, as a society, we need to get beyond this pathetic, immature, simple-minded, stupid, nonsense where we actually care about the differences between straight and gay, and black and white. One way to do that is to actually have the same laws for ALL people. If the state grants marriages to heterosexuals, it should do the same to homosexuals.
 
The banning of Chick-Fil-A has now spread to Chicago. “Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values,” said Mayor Rahm Emanuel in a statement to the Chicago Tribune.

Values? Chicago??

Chicago's mayor claiming the moral high ground has got to be the joke of the day.
 
The banning of Chick-Fil-A has now spread to Chicago. “Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values,” said Mayor Rahm Emanuel in a statement to the Chicago Tribune.

Values? Chicago??

Chicago's mayor claiming the moral high ground has got to be the joke of the day.

The values of Chicago are limited to gang violence and sky-high murder rates, and any intolerance to homosexuality definitely crosses a line, apparently. Good thing the mayor has stepped in to voice his opinion on the matter when it really should be left to people to vote with their dollars in the marketplace.
 
How exactly could you be gay and nobody know about it? wouldn't that just make you non-sexual?

No.

Sexuality is defined by desires.

Some people can't fullfill their desires for whatever reason. It may be due to the people they are attracted to aren't attracted to them, or it may be due to societal pressures and they feel their lives would be negatively affected in such a drastic way if they were to pursue those desires that they hide them... The latter being what many people outside of religion think is going on with many religious people, i.e. Marcus Bachdoorman.
 
Sexuality is defined by desires.

I guess it depends on which dictionary you want to use
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexuality
sex·u·al·i·ty
noun
1. sexual character; possession of the structural and functional traits of sex.
2. recognition of or emphasis upon sexual matters.
3. involvement in sexual activity.
4. an organism's preparedness for engaging in sexual activity.

But according to you, let's say I've looked at some chickens and thought, hey maybe I should give that a toss but never did anything about it. According to your definition I'd still be a chicken-fucker even though I never diddled a single chicken.
 
I guess it depends on which dictionary you want to use
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexuality


But according to you, let's say I've looked at some chickens and thought, hey maybe I should give that a toss but never did anything about it. According to your definition I'd still be a chicken-fucker even though I never diddled a single chicken.

I am using definition #4, but #3 applies as well. Both engagement and desire are relevant.

The question about the chicken really comes down to how serious were you about it, if you could do it without anybody knowing WOULD you actually do it, etc.. Just having the thought come across your mind as sort of a test of your own desires and then saying "nah, f that" doesn't really mean anything.
 
I am using definition #4, but #3 applies as well. Both engagement and desire are relevant.

#3 does not support your claim; but rather mine. If you do not engage in activity, then you are non-sexual (as I stated).
#4, "Preparedness" is so broad that arguing over the semantics of what you want it to mean is pointless.
 
as long as the CEO isnt refusing to hire gays, what is the big deal.

That's exactly what makes these bans so stupid, they dont trust consumers to make their choice, these mayors probably think that an overt initiative action will save them pressure from pressure groups later, but may well cost them a suit.
 
The way it's used in regards to homosexuality is questionable. When we're referencing a lifestyle we're talking about the way somebody lives in accordance with their values and their attitudes. This is the definition that is most widely accepted. Values and attitudes towards life can change. For example, going out to nightclubs, excessively consuming alcohol, and engaging in unprotected sex with random strangers is a lifestyle, and that lifestyle has been chosen, reflecting upon the values of those engaged in that lifestyle. Conversely, abstaining from the usage of alcohol/drugs, practicing abstinence, and maintaining faithful monogamous relationships is another lifestyle which has been chosen. These are what I'd consider 'lifestyles'.

I don't consider the state of being heterosexual or homosexual a lifestyle. Are you straight because you're a Christian and it's Biblically acceptable to be straight, thus reflecting your values? Or are you straight because you have a natural preference towards women?

Here are my personal views:

If you want to call it natural, I guess you could. I'm attracted to women because I was created to be, and I am. The two aren't mutually exclusive, though. I believe nature is only an expression of how God made you. For example, I am naturally inclined to screw every attractive woman I see, but that doesn't mean I do it. I live as I was made, and I have made a moral decision to do so even if I somehow magically turn gay. I believe that gay people may have inclinations to be gay, but it's not their nature. You can have what you call a "natural" inclination and still make a choice not to follow it. There are many who have done so and have been successful, although many gay advocates here will automatically discredit their success because they say they're trying to be something they aren't. Why must you draw such rigid lines?

I call homosexuality a lifestyle because I believe you can choose. There is nobody who is so strongly gay that they can never do anything to avoid living that way. I am not comparing homosexuality to alcoholism, but I believe that, just like alcoholism, you can wean yourself off of that behavior and it would be perfectly natural to do so. Likewise, you can choose to immerse yourself in a homosexual lifestyle and, while being "natural" per se, and become so involved with it that it becomes the only way you know how to live, just like you could do so with alcoholism or other practices. I've never understood the lines that people draw between them. Habits are learned. There doesn't have to be such a rigid line between "nature" and "choice." We are creatures of habit, and any behavior or lifestyle which we choose to take up can be unlearned and exchanged for something else. Nowhere in nature have we seen such a clear distinction between nature and choice as the homosexual community would have us believe.

However, make note that this is only my personal view. I have had friends who were bisexual, but I don't persecute them for it. I don't verbally reprimand them every time I see them either. I also have friends who are alcoholics. I don't condone that behavior but I don't judge them because I know I have my own personal flaws. I am not a bigot because my beliefs on this subject do not affect how I treat someone. The ones making the harshest judgments around here are not the ones who endorse a heterosexual lifestyle, but the ones who endorse a homosexual one and verbally reprimand anyone who would choose to speak out against the moral character of such behavior. They judge anyone who chooses to say which lifestyle they believe is morally right. As noted, I can hang out with people who are gay, the one that I used to hang out with understood my moral views and didn't judge me for it. This is not typical of my experience, though. It seems the only ones who create such rigid divides between gays and straights are the ones judging straight people for which lifestyle they choose to endorse, even though that doesn't necessarily mean they use force. To me, it seems a bit anti-liberty to actively judge people who don't endorse your lifestyle. I don't endorse gay people's lifestyle, and I say so, but that doesn't mean I actively judge them and avoid them like the plague. I encourage them to change just like I would encourage people who drink excessively to change.
 
The banning of Chick-Fil-A has now spread to Chicago. “Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values,” said Mayor Rahm Emanuel in a statement to the Chicago Tribune.

Values? Chicago??

Chicago's mayor claiming the moral high ground has got to be the joke of the day.

Heh. What does he plan on doing about the anti-gay marriage churches in Chicago, I wonder?

It's a violation of the 1st, and Rahm's Chicago might be facing a lawsuit if Chick-fil-A is so inclined.

But denying a private business permits because of such speech by its owner is a blatant First Amendment violation. Even when it comes to government contracting — where the government is choosing how to spend government money — the government generally may not discriminate based on the contractor’s speech, see Board of County Commissioners v. Umbehr (1996). It is even clearer that the government may not make decisions about how people will be allowed to use their own property based on the speaker’s past speech.

And this is so even if there is no statutory right to a particular kind of building permit (and I don’t know what the rule is under Illinois law). Even if the government may deny permits to people based on various reasons, it may not deny permits to people based on their exercise of his First Amendment rights. It doesn’t matter if the applicant expresses speech that doesn’t share the government officials’ values, or even the values of the majority of local citizens. It doesn’t matter if the applicant’s speech is seen as “disrespect[ful]” of certain groups. The First Amendment generally protects people’s rights to express such views without worrying that the government will deny them business permits as a result. That’s basic First Amendment law — but Alderman Moreno, Mayor Menino, and, apparently, Mayor Emanuel (if his statement is quoted in context), seem to either not know or not care about the law.
[...]
Of course, if Chick-Fil-A actually discriminated in their serving or hiring decisions in Chicago in a way forbidden by Chicago or Illinois law, they could be punished for this violation, and possibly even denied future permits based on such illegal behavior. But the stories give no evidence of any such actions, and suggest that the city officials’ statements are based on the Chick-Fil-A president’s speech, not any illegal conduct on the company’s part. Finally, note that the government may generally insist that, when it hires people to communicate a government message, those people use that government money only for the government-selected speech (see Rust v. Sullivan (1991)); but that power of the government to control its own speech is far removed from the government’s attempt in this case to retaliate against businesses for their owners’ speech. Thanks to commenter CalderonX for the pointer.

UPDATE: Just to make clear, I think the government has even less power to control the speech of those it regulates than its (already heavily limited) power to control the speech of those to whom it awards government contracts. The Court, for instance, has repeatedly protected the rights of even heavily regulated businesses to speak; that the government may regulate the business in various ways, or even bar it from being in business, doesn’t mean that the government may restrict the speech of the business. See, e.g., Consolidated Edison Co. v. Public Service Commission (1980) (holding that even status as a heavily regulated monopoly doesn’t strip the speaker of First Amendment rights). And just as the government may not restrict speech by businesses that are already operating, so it can’t deny a business a license to operate based on its owner’s speech.

FURTHER UPDATE: To be precise, the permit is “to divide the land so it can purchase an out lot near Home Depot”; I call it a building permit as shorthand, because it’s a permit that would be needed for Chick-Fil-A to build and open its restaurant. In any case, nothing turns constitutionally on whether the case involves a building permit, a subdivision permit, a business license, or what have you.
 
Here are my personal views:

If you want to call it natural, I guess you could. I'm attracted to women because I was created to be, and I am. The two aren't mutually exclusive, though. I believe nature is only an expression of how God made you. For example, I am naturally inclined to screw every attractive woman I see, but that doesn't mean I do it. I live as I was made, and I have made a moral decision to do so even if I somehow magically turn gay. I believe that gay people may have inclinations to be gay, but it's not their nature. You can have what you call a "natural" inclination and still make a choice not to follow it. There are many who have done so and have been successful, although many gay advocates here will automatically discredit their success because they say they're trying to be something they aren't. Why must you draw such rigid lines?

I call homosexuality a lifestyle because I believe you can choose. There is nobody who is so strongly gay that they can never do anything to avoid living that way. I am not comparing homosexuality to alcoholism, but I believe that, just like alcoholism, you can wean yourself off of that behavior and it would be perfectly natural to do so. Likewise, you can choose to immerse yourself in a homosexual lifestyle and, while being "natural" per se, and become so involved with it that it becomes the only way you know how to live, just like you could do so with alcoholism or other practices. I've never understood the lines that people draw between them. Habits are learned. There doesn't have to be such a rigid line between "nature" and "choice." We are creatures of habit, and any behavior or lifestyle which we choose to take up can be unlearned and exchanged for something else. Nowhere in nature have we seen such a clear distinction between nature and choice as the homosexual community would have us believe.

So, that a "gay" gene exists means nothing to you? Wow. "HOW DARE THAT MORALLY INFERIOR PERSON LIVE AS NATURE TELLS THEM TO LIVE!"

Then again, you're a hardcore religious guy, so it shouldn't surprise me to see you disregard science and maintain the erroneous belief that it's just a choice.
 
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Ardently religious people are infuriating. To go through life so willfully ignorant of science and reason is baffling. Then to double-down on that by being intolerant and judgmental of others, while claiming to worship a tolerant and loving God (who, apparently, hates a hell of a lot of people for being such a "loving" guy) is offensively stupid.
 
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Ardently religious people are infuriating. To go through life so willfully ignorant of science and reason is baffling. Then to double-down on that by being intolerant and judgmental of others, while claiming to worship a tolerant and loving God (who, apparently, hates a hell of a lot of people for being such a "loving" guy) is offensively stupid.

How very tolerant of you sir.
 
I think I agree with this. If I were gay, I could be gay without anyone knowing about it. If I were black, I wouldn't have that luxury.

Now, as a society, we need to get beyond this pathetic, immature, simple-minded, stupid, nonsense where we actually care about the differences between straight and gay, and black and white. One way to do that is to actually have the same laws for ALL people. If the state grants marriages to heterosexuals, it should do the same to homosexuals.

Why don't we just repeal state marriages for heterosexuals instead of adding more laws?
 
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