**Blimp crew still here and listening**

I'm very confused. Ever since we began taking sponsorship money on the 1st of December we have been taking purchases of sponsoship. At no point have we ever had things set up to take donations.

McKarnin,

As I recall, until recently the money given to the blimp company was termed buying advertising time. It is only recently that it has been changed to sponsorship of the blimp tour. Why the change?
 
McKarnin,

As I recall, until recently the money given to the blimp company was termed buying advertising time. It is only recently that it has been changed to sponsorship of the blimp tour. Why the change?


We've been asking people to sponsor advertizing time on the website since we first began accepting payments 12/1/07. I can't say that we've been making a point of not using the term buy. In fact we've been using buy and sponsor pretty much interchageably.

We have made several changes to the additional information on the site but at no point have we switched from a legal "sponsorship" model to a less than legal model. sponsorship is legal. People sponsor segments of advertising all the time.

We will provide more information about the clerical changes we have been through but at no point have we changed the legality of what we are doing.
 
We've been asking people to sponsor advertizing time on the website since we first began accepting payments 12/1/07. I can't say that we've been making a point of not using the term buy. In fact we've been using buy and sponsor pretty much interchageably.

We have made several changes to the additional information on the site but at no point have we switched from a legal "sponsorship" model to a less than legal model. sponsorship is legal. People sponsor segments of advertising all the time.

We will provide more information about the clerical changes we have been through but at no point have we changed the legality of what we are doing.


Hi, I've donated time before and I know the blimp is hurting for more funds, I'm trying to work out with my wife how much we will be able to afford to give.

There's a huge section of potential funds that you haven't had a chance to tap into yet. A minimum of a $5000 pledge from a user, located here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=221 I think that cadre of folks 'not yet supporting the blimp' could be made to support the blimp if their questions were answered. There are alot of threads.
 
We've been asking people to sponsor advertizing time on the website since we first began accepting payments 12/1/07. I can't say that we've been making a point of not using the term buy. In fact we've been using buy and sponsor pretty much interchageably.

We have made several changes to the additional information on the site but at no point have we switched from a legal "sponsorship" model to a less than legal model. sponsorship is legal. People sponsor segments of advertising all the time.

We will provide more information about the clerical changes we have been through but at no point have we changed the legality of what we are doing.

McKarnin,
Again, it used to be that we were buying a certain amount of advertising time on the blimp. Now, that has completely changed on the blimp website to, sponsoring the blimp tour. VERY different legally.

One more time, please answer these questions:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=64465
 
McKarnin, your responses calling the difference between sponsoring a tour and purchasing ad time, show that you do not understand the legal issues about giving money to you all. Do you know that the FEC, the Federal Elections Commision has an Act, called the FECA that regulates when and how you can give money supporting a candidate. If you do not follow these laws, you can be thrown in jail and or pay heavy fines just for supporting your candidate with money. I know it sucks and it is astonishing that a country like ours has laws like this and hopefully that would be one thing that Ron Paul would abolish when he got into office, but it is still here and exists.

The fact that you came on here, ignored my post completely about the legality of your whole blimp scheme at different times as your website changed to jump over to an easier one tells a lot.

Clearly you are not a lawyer and I get that, no problem. At this point however, we need more than a laymen to come in here and answer these legal questions, we need a lawyer. One who understands the FECA and knows what those letters stand for.

It is such a shame that Trevor has not been able to come here and answer any questions. Although, I don't think he is a lawyer either, but it might have helped some.

Again, you folks come on here, frantic for money in the main section, begging for money with a three day deadline and then promise to answer questions in four days. Amazing how the timing always works out that way.
 
McKarnin, your responses calling the difference between sponsoring a tour and purchasing ad time, show that you do not understand the legal issues about giving money to you all. Do you know that the FEC, the Federal Elections Commision has an Act, called the FECA that regulates when and how you can give money supporting a candidate. If you do not follow these laws, you can be thrown in jail and or pay heavy fines just for supporting your candidate with money. I know it sucks and it is astonishing that a country like ours has laws like this and hopefully that would be one thing that Ron Paul would abolish when he got into office, but it is still here and exists.

The fact that you came on here, ignored my post completely about the legality of your whole blimp scheme at different times as your website changed to jump over to an easier one tells a lot.

Clearly you are not a lawyer and I get that, no problem. At this point however, we need more than a laymen to come in here and answer these legal questions, we need a lawyer. One who understands the FECA and knows what those letters stand for.

It is such a shame that Trevor has not been able to come here and answer any questions. Although, I don't think he is a lawyer either, but it might have helped some.

Again, you folks come on here, frantic for money in the main section, begging for money with a three day deadline and then promise to answer questions in four days. Amazing how the timing always works out that way.

QFT. Is it possible to get Bradley Smith, of the blimp's legal team, to type something up for the consumers of the blimp with regard to the legal issue? I think alot of us would learn something from it.
 
McKarnin,
Again, it used to be that we were buying a certain amount of advertising time on the blimp. Now, that has completely changed on the blimp website to, sponsoring the blimp tour. VERY different legally.

I do not get what is different, please explain. I own a business and if someone want me to sponsor something, they may ask me to sponsor them, or buy a sponsorship. Different phrasing, but the same thing. Legally, what is the difference?
 
I do not get what is different, please explain. I own a business and if someone want me to sponsor something, they may ask me to sponsor them, or buy a sponsorship. Different phrasing, but the same thing. Legally, what is the difference?

When the blimp website was first launched, we were buying advertising time from an advertising company. On the revised website, we are sponsoring the blimp tour. I'm not an attorney, but this seems different to me. I just want to be reassured that with this change, we are still within the guidelines of the FEC regs. I'm wondering why these changes were made.

Note: With the change, the name of the advertising company was removed from the main page and was removed from the payment page. Yesterday afternoon it was added back to the payment page.
 
Flip the donation table around on RonPaulBlimp.com. It's a little intimidating seeing "$1 million for ten weeks" as the first thing you see. I'd prefer to have the "$25 for 2.7 minutes" on the top or bottom left spot on the table, as it would scare less people. Thank you.

EDIT: And maybe instead of newspaper ads, Mr. Lepard could...
 
[Hey all,

McKarnin, your responses calling the difference between sponsoring a tour and purchasing ad time, show that you do not understand the legal issues about giving money to you all. Do you know that the FEC, the Federal Elections Commision has an Act, called the FECA that regulates when and how you can give money supporting a candidate. If you do not follow these laws, you can be thrown in jail and or pay heavy fines just for supporting your candidate with money. I know it sucks and it is astonishing that a country like ours has laws like this and hopefully that would be one thing that Ron Paul would abolish when he got into office, but it is still here and exists.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've done some looking into independent expenditures. Here's a post I made on the subject. I hope it helps people wondering about legal issues feel at least a little better informed:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=37238

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer! This is not legal advice, as I am in no way qualified to give any legal advice. I've been told there's alot to it, and someone qualified to give legal advice should be consulted. In addition, this information does not refer to donations or contributions to an organization or candidate, only to independent expenditures.

That said, I found these on the FEC site:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/citizens.shtml#ie

Independent Expenditures

Independent expenditures provide yet another way to support Federal candidates. An independent expenditure is money spent for a communication that expressly advocates the election or defeat of a clearly identified Federal candidate. It is "independent" only if the individual making the expenditure does not coordinate or consult in any way with the candidate or campaign (or agent of the candidate or campaign) benefiting from the communication. Independent expenditures are not considered contributions and are unlimited. You may spend any amount on each communication as long as the expenditure is truly independent.

You may, for example, pay for an advertisement in a newspaper or on the radio urging the public to vote for the candidate you want elected. Or you may produce and distribute posters or yard signs telling people not to vote for a candidate you oppose.

When making an independent expenditure, you must include a notice stating that you have paid for the communication and that it is not authorized by any candidate's committee. ("Paid for by John Doe and not authorized by any candidate's committee.") Additionally, once you spend more than $250 during a calendar year on independent expenditures with respect to a given election, you must file a report with the Federal Election Commission (either FEC Form 5 at http://www.fec.gov/pdf/forms/fecfrm5.pdf , or a signed statement containing the same information).

Because this brief explanation does not cover all you need to know about independent expenditures, contact the Commission for more information.



More on independent expenditures, I strongly recomend you check out the page:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/indexp.shtml#IE

Independent Expenditures

An independent expenditure is an expenditure for a communication “expressly advocating the election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate that is not made in cooperation, consultation, or concert with, or at the request or suggestion of, a candidate, a candidate’s authorized committee, or their agents, or a political party or its agents.” 11 CFR 100.16(a).

Who May Make Independent Expenditures

Persons permitted to make contributions in connection with federal elections (such as individuals and political committees) may make independent expenditures. Persons prohibited from making contributions or expenditures in connection with federal elections (such as corporations, labor organizations and individuals or businesses with federal government contracts) are similarly prohibited from making independent expenditures. However, there is one exception to this rule.

Certain Nonprofit Corporations May Make Independent Expenditures


In addition, I looked up on Findlaw.com the case of BUCKLEY v. VALEO (1976), where it appears limits on individual expenditures were struck down. There have been many new laws and cases since then relating to campaign finance, so I can't say this is a definitive answer, but in my not legally qualified opinion this is good:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=424&invol=1

In addition, cases citing BUCKLEY v. VALEO can be found here:

Sureme Court:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/casesearch.pl?court=us&CiRestriction=424+u.s.+1&

Circuit Courts:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/casesearch.pl?court=circs&CiRestriction="424+U.S.+1"&

Important information Exceprted from BUCKLEY v. VALEO (1976):

In upholding the constitutional validity of the Act's contribution and expenditure provisions on the ground [424 U.S. 1, 16] that those provisions should be viewed as regulating conduct, not speech, the Court of Appeals relied upon United States v. O'Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968). See 171 U.S. App. D.C., at 191, 519 F.2d, at 840. The O'Brien case involved a defendant's claim that the First Amendment prohibited his prosecution for burning his draft card because his act was "`symbolic speech'" engaged in as a "`demonstration against the war and against the draft.'" 391 U.S., at 376 . On the assumption that "the alleged communicative element in O'Brien's conduct [was] sufficient to bring into play the First Amendment," the Court sustained the conviction because it found "a sufficiently important governmental interest in regulating the non-speech element" that was "unrelated to the suppression of free expression" and that had an "incidental restriction on alleged First Amendment freedoms . . . no greater than [was] essential to the furtherance of that interest." Id., at 376-377. The Court expressly emphasized that O'Brien was not a case "where the alleged governmental interest in regulating conduct arises in some measure because the communication allegedly integral to the conduct is itself thought to be harmful." Id., at 382.

We cannot share the view that the present Act's contribution and expenditure limitations are comparable to the restrictions on conduct upheld in O'Brien. The expenditure of money simply cannot be equated with such conduct as destruction of a draft card. Some forms of communication made possible by the giving and spending of money involve speech alone, some involve conduct primarily, and some involve a combination of the two. Yet this Court has never suggested that the dependence of a communication on the expenditure of money operates itself to introduce a non speech element or to reduce the exacting scrutiny required by the First Amendment. See Bigelow v. Virginia, 421 U.S. 809 , [424 U.S. 1, 17] 820 (1975); New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, supra, at 266. For example, in Cox v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 559 (1965), the Court contrasted picketing and parading with a newspaper comment and a telegram by a citizen to a public official. The parading and picketing activities were said to constitute conduct "intertwined with expression and association," whereas the newspaper comment and the telegram were described as a "pure form of expression" involving "free speech alone" rather than "expression mixed with particular conduct." Id., at 563-564.

Even if the categorization of the expenditure of money as conduct were accepted, the limitations challenged here would not meet the O'Brien test because the governmental interests advanced in support of the Act involve "suppressing communication." The interests served by the Act include restricting the voices of people and interest groups who have money to spend and reducing the overall scope of federal election campaigns. Although the Act does not focus on the ideas expressed by persons or groups subject to its regulations, it is aimed in part at equalizing the relative ability of all voters to affect electoral outcomes by placing a ceiling on expenditures for political expression by citizens and groups. Unlike O'Brien, where the Selective Service System's administrative interest in the preservation of draft cards was wholly unrelated to their use as a means of communication, it is beyond dispute that the interest in regulating the alleged "conduct" of giving or spending money "arises in some measure because the communication allegedly integral to the conduct is itself thought to be harmful." 391 U.S., at 382 .

Nor can the Act's contribution and expenditure limitations be sustained, as some of the parties suggest, by reference to the constitutional principles reflected in such [424 U.S. 1, 18] decisions as Cox v. Louisiana, supra; Adderley v. Florida, 385 U.S. 39 (1966); and Kovacs v. Cooper, 336 U.S. 77 (1949). Those cases stand for the proposition that the government may adopt reasonable time, place, and manner regulations, which do not discriminate among speakers or ideas, in order to further an important governmental interest unrelated to the restriction of communication. See Erznoznik v. City of Jacksonville, 422 U.S. 205, 209 (1975). In contrast to O'Brien, where the method of expression was held to be subject to prohibition, Cox, Adderley, and Kovacs involved place or manner restrictions on legitimate modes of expression - picketing, parading, demonstrating, and using a soundtruck. The critical difference between this case and those time, place, and manner cases is that the present Act's contribution and expenditure limitations impose direct quantity restrictions on political communication and association by persons, groups, candidates, and political parties in addition to any reasonable time, place, and manner regulations otherwise imposed. 17 [424 U.S. 1, 19]

A restriction on the amount of money a person or group can spend on political communication during a campaign necessarily reduces the quantity of expression by restricting the number of issues discussed, the depth of their exploration, and the size of the audience reached. This is because virtually every means of communicating ideas in today's mass society requires the expenditure of money. The distribution of the humblest handbill or leaflet entails printing, paper, and circulation costs. Speeches and rallies generally necessitate hiring a hall and publicizing the event. The electorate's increasing dependence on television, radio, and other mass media for news and information has made these expensive modes of communication indispensable instruments of effective political speech.
The expenditure limitations contained in the Act represent substantial rather than merely theoretical restraints on the quantity and diversity of political speech. The $1,000 ceiling on spending "relative to a clearly identified candidate," 18 U.S.C. 608 (e) (1) (1970 ed., Supp. IV), would appear to exclude all citizens and groups except candidates, political parties, and the institutional press from any significant use of the most [424 U.S. 1, 20] effective modes of communication. Although the Act's limitations on expenditures by campaign organizations and political parties provide substantially greater room for discussion and debate, they would have required restrictions in the scope of a number of past congressional and Presidential campaigns and would operate to constrain campaigning by candidates who raise sums in excess of the spending ceiling.

By contrast with a limitation upon expenditures for political expression, a limitation upon the amount that any one person or group may contribute to a candidate or political committee entails only a marginal restriction upon the contributor's ability to engage in free communication. [424 U.S. 1, 21] A contribution serves as a general expression of support for the candidate and his views, but does not communicate the underlying basis for the support. The quantity of communication by the contributor does not increase perceptibly with the size of his contribution, since the expression rests solely on the undifferentiated, symbolic act of contributing. At most, the size of the contribution provides a very rough index of the intensity of the contributor's support for the candidate. A limitation on the amount of money a person may give to a candidate or campaign organization thus involves little direct restraint on his political communication, for it permits the symbolic expression of support evidenced by a contribution but does not in any way infringe the contributor's freedom to discuss candidates and issues. While contributions may result in political expression if spent by a candidate or an association to present views to the voters, the transformation of contributions into political debate involves speech by someone other than the contributor.
 
Again, I'm not qualified to give legal advice, so don't take this as legal advice, but that said, let me repeat information from my last post, with an important part highlighted in red this time:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/indexp.shtml#IE

An independent expenditure is an expenditure for a communication “expressly advocating the election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate that is not made in cooperation, consultation, or concert with, or at the request or suggestion of, a candidate, a candidate’s authorized committee, or their agents, or a political party or its agents.” 11 CFR 100.16(a).

Now let me add, since the Ron Paul Blimp doesn't "expressly advocate the election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate", I'd interpret this to strengthen the legal position of the Blimp.

But I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know. You'll either need to research it yourself or consult a lawyer because I'm not qualified to give legal advice.
 
Donation widget needed on site... how bout a comic book mini version of RP on top of the meter holding the constitution....
 
I do not get what is different, please explain. I own a business and if someone want me to sponsor something, they may ask me to sponsor them, or buy a sponsorship. Different phrasing, but the same thing. Legally, what is the difference?

There is no difference that I know of and we have been using the terms sponsor and buy interchangeably all along. We have not used the word "donate" though which would be a legal problem.
 
There is no difference that I know of and we have been using the terms sponsor and buy interchangeably all along. We have not used the word "donate" though which would be a legal problem.

Well, that was definitely worth everyone getting all riled up about :rolleyes:

I'm gonna go back to watching the Blimp fly over Florida now :D

Pimp: blimp purchase matching thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=58747
 
Tornado watches and warnings look pretty intense in western florida and alabama. Watch out for winds today.
 
There is no difference that I know of and we have been using the terms sponsor and buy interchangeably all along. We have not used the word "donate" though which would be a legal problem.


No you have not. You first used the term purchase, as in give money to a company to buy something, then you changed it. Why? If they are interchangeable then there would be no need for a change. Also, your company disappeared and then came back.

You are not a lawyer. You are not giving an accurate representation of what the website used to look like. The word sponsor and donate are very close in meaning so if donations are a legal problem as you say, then why aren't sponsorships?

In fact, from your post right here, I would have to suspect that a sponsorship scheme is completely illegal.

definition of sponsor: a patron: someone who supports or champions something wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Definition of patron: One that supports, protects, or champions someone or something, such as an institution, event, or cause; a sponsor or benefactor www.discoveringthestory.org/goldenage/springer/glossary.asp
Definition of benefactor: A donor; backer; supporter. www.advservices.uidaho.edu/default.aspx
Definition of donor: One who makes a contribution or donation. [i.e. one who donates] www.onencnaturally.com/pages/glossary.html Or in our case, one who may not give to the cause of the blimp without having a "legal problem" according to your post.

See how all of these words mean roughly the same thing.

Now purchaser: a buyer: a person who buys wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


Nothing about giving or donating at all in the word purchase. I am sure that is why your attorney used the term purchase to begin with, because he knew that making donations to a cause that supports a candidate without some kind of PAC being set up is illegal, so he tried a new kind of game to see if it would fly with the FEC. But this new little wordplay is 100% different and if you have been using the term purchaser and sponsor interchangeably then your English is off. Using the term sponsor and donor interchangeably, now that would be reasonable.


But again, instead of answering the question directly or having an attorney come on here and explain why the FEC will be happy to accept sponsorship money going to a company when clearly donating money to that same company is illegal, as you have just noted yourself, you try to play a game of semantics and dodge the question directly.

Now perhaps you didn't mean to, and I would be shocked if that was your intent, but that is what you have done.

So, since you have an FEC lawyer on retainer why don't you get him to issue a statement on his letterhead, signed by him that you post here or on your website explaining why it is legal to sponsor this project. In case you miss the logic above, a sponsor is a patron, a patron is a benefactor, a benefactor is a donor. So turn it around, a donor is a benefactor, a benefactor is a patron, a patron is a sponsor, therefore a sponsor is a donor. It is illegal you state to be a donor (one who submits donations) but you want us to believe that it is legal to be a sponsor which is a donor?
 
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