Best President

Favorite President

  • Grover Cleveland

    Votes: 13 18.1%
  • Warren G. Harding

    Votes: 3 4.2%
  • Calvin Coolidge

    Votes: 17 23.6%
  • Thomas Jefferson

    Votes: 16 22.2%
  • George Washington

    Votes: 9 12.5%
  • James Madison

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • James Monroe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dwight Eisenhower

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Andrew Jackson

    Votes: 9 12.5%
  • John F. Kennedy

    Votes: 4 5.6%

  • Total voters
    72
  • Poll closed .
Your list confuses the hell out of me.
Is it beyond you to be polite?

Buchanan was our worst President and he's not even in your bottom 5!
Buchanan did not launch any unconstitutional, imperialistic wars, authorize any mass murders, aggressively imprison political dissidents or racial minorities, regiment the U.S. economy and pump it full of socialist and fascist-style government intervention, sanction torture and indefinite detention, or perform various other acts which mark the very worst presidents. He was not a good president, but he was absolutely not the worst.

Dwight Eisenhower should be higher.
The soaring tax rates, overseas CIA abuses, early involvement in Vietnam, and the like turn me off.
 
nice to see some love for James Monroe. There's a reason he had the most overwhelming re-election in the history of the US.
While I don't consider electoral popularity a reliable measure of quality in political leaders, I do think Monroe is woefully overlooked and underappreciated around these parts-- a corrupt, mob-affiliated big-government pawn like Kennedy receives three votes, but not a single one goes to this most exceptionally-libertarian and successful of executives.
 
I feel like I'd rank Reagan higher than Jimmy Carter, although I know Elend disagrees with me and I'm willing to be talked out of that stance.
I wouldn't put too much stock in Eland's position; he has some (in my view) positively absurd selections, like Clinton in 11th place-- and Jefferson in 26th. If I recall correctly, he also argued during the last election cycle that Gary Johnson was a better pro-liberty candidate than Ron Paul, suggesting that his liberty bona fides are less than stellar.

I'm not exactly a Reagan fanatic but as MaxPower pointed out, Reagan was pretty solid domestically and relatively reserved on foreign policy. I'm not a Reaganist, if I follow anyone politically its Ron Paul, not Ron Reagan, but overall I think putting Reagan in the top 20, and Carter clearly not, is probably reasonable.

Which is to say, still bad. I'd never vote for him. But I'd prefer him over Carter.
Carter ranks higher primarily because he didn't balloon the national debt the way Reagan did. Carter actually oversaw substantial deregulation himself, and may have had the very least abusive foreign policy of any president post-Coolidge.

Why on Earth does Taft do so well? You're confusing Robert and William Howard, I think. Robert was the conservative, and never became President. William H. was such a "trust buster" that even the fascist TR criticized him for going too far. Near the bottom: IMO.
Give me a little credit; you honestly think I went to the trouble of compiling this entire list and offering to defend my choices, but counted a Senator as a president? If Robert Taft had ever been president, he would almost certainly have placed much higher than 18th.

I don't think Taft really does especially "well" in placing 18th; frankly, I would only call the top 10 or so "good" presidents, and maybe the top 15 or 16 "decent." Ranking 18th out of 42 in a group as disreputable as the U.S. presidents is not a place of great honor. Taft ranks as "high" as he does primarily because he didn't oversee any major
unconstitutional wars, serious violent crimes, civil liberties abuses, corruption, etc. He had a few somewhat pro-liberty stances-- most notably, in contrast to his predecessor, Roosevelt, he had a reserved interpretation of presidential power (he held that "the President can exercise no power which cannot fairly be traced to some specific grant of power in the Constitution or act of Congress"), and he stayed admirably true to this stance while opposing and refusing to launch any unilateral foreign military intervention, which there was great pressure for him to do during an uprising in Mexico.
 
after looking over the long lists again, as a rough rule of thumb, there is a war connecting
up to the terms in office for many of the POTUSes on the bottom half of the complete lists...
today i am in a very pacifistic mood and am in a funk of sorts. i looked at a video just now.
 
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was andrew johnson contrary or did he actually demobilize one of the largest armies in our history?


My latest draft:

1. Grover Cleveland
2. Thomas Jefferson
3. James Monroe
4. George Washington
5. Warren G. Harding
6. Calvin Coolidge
7. James A. Garfield
8. Ulysses S. Grant
9. James Madison
10. John Tyler
11. Benjamin Harrison
12. Rutherford B. Hayes
13. John Q. Adams
14. Martin Van Buren
15. Zachary Taylor
16. Chester A. Arthur
17. John Adams
18. William H. Taft
19. Andrew Jackson
20. William Henry Harrison
21. Jimmy Carter
22. Gerald Ford
23. Herbert Hoover
24. Dwight Eisenhower
25. Andrew Johnson
26. Ronald Reagan
27. John F. Kennedy
28. Franklin Pierce
29. Millard Fillmore
30. James Buchanan
31. William McKinley
32. Abraham Lincoln
33. Theodore Roosevelt
34. George H.W. Bush
35. James K. Polk
36. Bill Clinton
37. Richard Nixon
38. Lyndon B. Johnson
39. George W. Bush
40. Harry Truman
41. Woodrow Wilson
42. Franklin Roosevelt

If anyone should request exposition/discussion of my placements, I will happily oblige.
 
He didn't arrest his critics, but he did have 110,000 Japanese-Americans, many of whom were small children and/or fully-Americanized individuals with absolutely no ties to Japan aside from biological heritage, incarcerated, stripped of their jobs, possessions, and personal freedom, and sent to internment camps for indefinite detention without suspicion or accusation of any crime.

Of course FDR did arrest his critics and similar; look at the Great Sedition Trial, or the treatment of Father Coughlin, or his creation of the House Un-American Activities Committee (which was primarily used to slander his opponents), or other opponent-slandering like his smearing of Sen. David Walsh, etc.
 
While I don't consider electoral popularity a reliable measure of quality in political leaders, I do think Monroe is woefully overlooked and underappreciated around these parts-- a corrupt, mob-affiliated big-government pawn like Kennedy receives three votes, but not a single one goes to this most exceptionally-libertarian and successful of executives.

In the 1800s, electoral success was accurate. In those days the people knew about the Constitution & Founding Fathers.
 
I wouldn't put too much stock in Eland's position; he has some (in my view) positively absurd selections, like Clinton in 11th place-- and Jefferson in 26th. If I recall correctly, he also argued during the last election cycle that Gary Johnson was a better pro-liberty candidate than Ron Paul, suggesting that his liberty bona fides are less than stellar.

I think his point was that Jefferson was there when the constitution was signed and so should have known better. That's a reasonable explanation but I don't go by that either.

As for Gary being "Better" than Ron, that is indeed a stupid position. Where did Elend say that?
Carter ranks higher primarily because he didn't balloon the national debt the way Reagan did. Carter actually oversaw substantial deregulation himself, and may have had the very least abusive foreign policy of any president post-Coolidge.

I didn't know Carter deregulated anything... I know taxes were high as heck back then, which Reagan reduced (Not enough, but he did reduce them.)

Give me a little credit; you honestly think I went to the trouble of compiling this entire list and offering to defend my choices, but counted a Senator as a president? If Robert Taft had ever been president, he would almost certainly have placed much higher than 18th.

I was kind of joking.

I don't think Taft really does especially "well" in placing 18th; frankly, I would only call the top 10 or so "good" presidents, and maybe the top 15 or 16 "decent." Ranking 18th out of 42 in a group as disreputable as the U.S. presidents is not a place of great honor. Taft ranks as "high" as he does primarily because he didn't oversee any major
unconstitutional wars, serious violent crimes, civil liberties abuses, corruption, etc. He had a few somewhat pro-liberty stances-- most notably, in contrast to his predecessor, Roosevelt, he had a reserved interpretation of presidential power (he held that "the President can exercise no power which cannot fairly be traced to some specific grant of power in the Constitution or act of Congress"), and he stayed admirably true to this stance while opposing and refusing to launch any unilateral foreign military intervention, which there was great pressure for him to do during an uprising in Mexico.

I'm with you on most Presidents sucking. But I remember Theodore being angry at William Howard because he regulated too much. I feel like anyone who TR is angry at for regulating too much is certainly pretty bad on economics.

And yeah, there's only a handful of decent ones.
 
Cleveland was also rock solid other than the road building, but as I said, even some libertarians are in favor of government doing that. Roads aren't really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
Interstate Commerce Commission. That was Cleveland's big sin.
 
Who did the least while in office? That would be my pick. All are horrible but the one who did the least would be the best worst.
 
Thomas Jefferson got the US involved in an entanglement in the middle east (after speaking out against this type of thing). Look it up. Most of these guys were good bullshitters to get elected, but what they actually did was not at all pro-liberty.
 
Thomas Jefferson got the US involved in an entanglement in the middle east (after speaking out against this type of thing). Look it up. Most of these guys were good bullshitters to get elected, but what they actually did was not at all pro-liberty.

James Madiosn un-entagled the US from the Middle East in 1815. He sent Stephen Decatur and all 4 major powers of North Africa signed fair peace treaties with the US:

The End of Barbary Terror
http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Barbary-Terror-Americas/dp/0195325400
 
Bush I launched the undeclared, unconstitutional Gulf War, loudly promised "no new taxes" in his 1988 campaign and then did an about-face in office, increased gun control, increased the national debt, etc. He was pretty roundly bad from a libertarian perspective.

On the subject of Lincoln, I am going to say something controversial on these forums: he did some good. Even though he had previously sometimes acted in ways that insulated slavery (as he prioritized "maintaining the Union" over fighting slavery) Lincoln was instrumental in the creation and passage of the 13th Amendment, which abolished it, and began to publicly push for more legal recognition for blacks shortly before he was assassinated. Although he was undeniably ruthless and tyrannical in his prosecution of the Civil War, I do think he genuinely believed that his policies were only temporary "war measures" to be rescinded at the conflict's (well-defined, unlike certain more recent conflicts) conclusion; he actually was returning his usurped powers at the end of the war. After the South surrendered, he pardoned the entire Confederate army-- and before you scoff at this fact, understand that at that time, it would have been seen as perfectly normal and acceptable under the historical laws of war for him to have every prominent Confederate he could get his proverbial hands on lined up against a wall and shot. Frankly, I think many other presidents would have done even worse than Lincoln did in the same position-- Andrew Jackson, for example, who was shamelessly authoritarian in his use of the presidency, who seriously threatened to send the army to fight an attempted nullification in South Carolina, and who was a famously brutal and merciless operator, would probably not have shown even the limited grace Lincoln did. FDR might just about have taken the opportunity to outright declare himself Lord and King for life. Nearly all presidents, Lincoln not least, have been statists, and for a statist, an attempt to dissolve the Union amounts to the ultimate treachery and justifies virtually any action in combating it; if anything, Lincoln was more restrained and merciful, when he saw the opportunity to be, than many statists would have been.

Now, none of this changes the fact that he utterly desecrated the Constitution, violated the principles of liberty in a multitude of ways, and deliberately sanctioned war crimes against Southern prisoners and civilians-- hence the fact that he appears well toward the lower end of my list-- but he was not pure evil, and I do believe he had more going for him than a few of his peers in the history of the presidency.


The war may have been justified, but FDR was certainly not justified in campaigning on the assertion that "Your boys will not be going off to fight in any foreign wars," all the while fully intending to send them off to do just that, and then, after winning reelection, seemingly deliberately baiting Japan into launching the Pearl Harbor attack so that he would have an excuse the public would buy.


He didn't arrest his critics, but he did have 110,000 Japanese-Americans, many of whom were small children and/or fully-Americanized individuals with absolutely no ties to Japan aside from biological heritage, incarcerated, stripped of their jobs, possessions, and personal freedom, and sent to internment camps for indefinite detention without suspicion or accusation of any crime.


Keeping in mind the crimes I have already described, let us not forget FDR's illegal mass-confiscation of private citizens' and businesses' gold, underhanded bullying of the Supreme Court into accepting his unconstitutional, authoritarian, and economically-destructive New Deal policies (which prolonged the Great Depression, the worst economic downturn in history), saddling the country with the financial-nightmare-to-be that was Social Security, turning back shiploads of European Jews fleeing the Holocaust, helping to mastermind and participating in the Dresden firebombing, which killed even more civilians than the Hiroshima strike, flaunting Washington's two-term precedent to give us four terms of his brutal, tyrannical "governance"... the list goes on. I say he was the worst.


He isn't exactly "low," but he isn't higher primarily because he pushed for the imperialistic annexation of Texas. He was also pretty pro-slavery, and signed a significant tariff increase. Cleveland, by contrast, honorably opposed and temporarily thwarted the US annexation of Hawaii, and fought attempted tariff increases. Cleveland was a true constitutionalist, a man of remarkable integrity and courage, reliably stood up for his principles in office (note his issuance of more vetoes than all preceding presidents combined, many of which were of pork-barrel spending and otherwise unlibertarian, authoritarian, and "progressive" measures). He has the most consistently pro-liberty and pro-peace record of any U.S. president.


"The roads"? Do you mean the Interstate Commerce Commission? If so, Cleveland did not (contrary to the "Why Cleveland Sucked" video someone posted in this thread) "make" the ICC; rather, he simply failed to veto it-- one of the few bad policies that made it past him-- likely because it stayed more or less within the bounds of the interstate commerce clause in its original form, though it subsequently ballooned into something significantly worse.

I agree with you Abe did do some good
 
Bush I launched the undeclared, unconstitutional Gulf War, loudly promised "no new taxes" in his 1988 campaign and then did an about-face in office, increased gun control, increased the national debt, etc. He was pretty roundly bad from a libertarian perspective.

I'm totally with you. He's far from even mediocrity. But I don't see his Presidency as being as bad as what Lincoln did.

Don't get me wrong, I still oppose it, but I think a war to protect another nation from invasion is less bad than fighting a war to force citizens to remain within your empire. Tax increases: Lincoln did that too. I'm not aware of H.W. increasing gun control, but that just shows that you're more of a Presidential expert than I am. I'm pretty knowledgeable compared to anyone I know in real life (I've had the list memorized, minus Obama of course, since I was eight years old) but not compared to you or some of the others here. I knew Reagan expanded gun control but I didn't know that elder Bush had done that.

But yeah, I'm with you on H.W. being bad. But he seemed like a mundane kind of bad. The country has sucked since the New Deal anyways, and he mostly did what was expected of him. Unlike his son, he didn't do anything truly AWFUL (Again: not counting stuff that every post-New Deal Pres. has done.)

Lincoln, by contrast and as you said, outright destroyed the constitution. I'm almost tempted to put him at the very bottom of the list although I tend to agree with you on FDR being worse.
On the subject of Lincoln, I am going to say something controversial on these forums: he did some good. Even though he had previously sometimes acted in ways that insulated slavery (as he prioritized "maintaining the Union" over fighting slavery) Lincoln was instrumental in the creation and passage of the 13th Amendment, which abolished it, and began to publicly push for more legal recognition for blacks shortly before he was assassinated. Although he was undeniably ruthless and tyrannical in his prosecution of the Civil War, I do think he genuinely believed that his policies were only temporary "war measures" to be rescinded at the conflict's (well-defined, unlike certain more recent conflicts) conclusion; he actually was returning his usurped powers at the end of the war. After the South surrendered, he pardoned the entire Confederate army-- and before you scoff at this fact, understand that at that time, it would have been seen as perfectly normal and acceptable under the historical laws of war for him to have every prominent Confederate he could get his proverbial hands on lined up against a wall and shot. Frankly, I think many other presidents would have done even worse than Lincoln did in the same position-- Andrew Jackson, for example, who was shamelessly authoritarian in his use of the presidency, who seriously threatened to send the army to fight an attempted nullification in South Carolina, and who was a famously brutal and merciless operator, would probably not have shown even the limited grace Lincoln did. FDR might just about have taken the opportunity to outright declare himself Lord and King for life. Nearly all presidents, Lincoln not least, have been statists, and for a statist, an attempt to dissolve the Union amounts to the ultimate treachery and justifies virtually any action in combating it; if anything, Lincoln was more restrained and merciful, when he saw the opportunity to be, than many statists would have been.

Now, none of this changes the fact that he utterly desecrated the Constitution, violated the principles of liberty in a multitude of ways, and deliberately sanctioned war crimes against Southern prisoners and civilians-- hence the fact that he appears well toward the lower end of my list-- but he was not pure evil, and I do believe he had more going for him than a few of his peers in the history of the presidency.

He was pretty much evil, but I don't disagree with what you say about his "Redeeming qualities." Ultimately it doesn't matter though. It would have been better for the country if he had never been born, and as it was, I view it as a good thing that Booth cut his tyranny short. I don't see how you can compare the relatively mundane bad of someone like H.W. that got out in four years and barely even made a difference to someone like Lincoln who completely revolutionized the country, and not for the better.

The war may have been justified, but FDR was certainly not justified in campaigning on the assertion that "Your boys will not be going off to fight in any foreign wars," all the while fully intending to send them off to do just that, and then, after winning reelection, seemingly deliberately baiting Japan into launching the Pearl Harbor attack so that he would have an excuse the public would buy.

I'm not even sure it was justified, as I said its iffy. I lean toward the position of trying to stay out of it, but then, I'm a hard-core noninterventionist. But I don't see how anyone sane could have supported the first world war.

He didn't arrest his critics, but he did have 110,000 Japanese-Americans, many of whom were small children and/or fully-Americanized individuals with absolutely no ties to Japan aside from biological heritage, incarcerated, stripped of their jobs, possessions, and personal freedom, and sent to internment camps for indefinite detention without suspicion or accusation of any crime.

That's true.
Keeping in mind the crimes I have already described, let us not forget FDR's illegal mass-confiscation of private citizens' and businesses' gold, underhanded bullying of the Supreme Court into accepting his unconstitutional, authoritarian, and economically-destructive New Deal policies (which prolonged the Great Depression, the worst economic downturn in history), saddling the country with the financial-nightmare-to-be that was Social Security, turning back shiploads of European Jews fleeing the Holocaust, helping to mastermind and participating in the Dresden firebombing, which killed even more civilians than the Hiroshima strike, flaunting Washington's two-term precedent to give us four terms of his brutal, tyrannical "governance"... the list goes on. I say he was the worst.

I'm curious how Wilson's list would look, considering he and FDR were clearly worse than anyone else, even Lincoln, who I would put in the position of third worst.
He isn't exactly "low,"

Well, he's my #1 ATM so #10 seemed low to me.
but he isn't higher primarily because he pushed for the imperialistic annexation of Texas.

But did he actually do that? IIRC that was all Polk. So I don't blame Tyler for that, even if he did support it.

He was also pretty pro-slavery,

"Pro-slavery" is usually just codeword for supporting state's rights back then. Which he did. To my knowledge Tyler did not push slavery on any state that had abolished it. As President, that's all he was really authorized to do to begin with.
and signed a significant tariff increase

I thought Tyler opposed and vetoed tariffs? Perhaps I was wrong?

Cleveland, by contrast, honorably opposed and temporarily thwarted the US annexation of Hawaii, and fought attempted tariff increases. Cleveland was a true constitutionalist, a man of remarkable integrity and courage, reliably stood up for his principles in office (note his issuance of more vetoes than all preceding presidents combined, many of which were of pork-barrel spending and otherwise unlibertarian, authoritarian, and "progressive" measures). He has the most consistently pro-liberty and pro-peace record of any U.S. president.

Cleveland was pretty rock solid, definitely in the top three.

"The roads"? Do you mean the Interstate Commerce Commission? If so, Cleveland did not (contrary to the "Why Cleveland Sucked" video someone posted in this thread) "make" the ICC; rather, he simply failed to veto it-- one of the few bad policies that made it past him-- likely because it stayed more or less within the bounds of the interstate commerce clause in its original form, though it subsequently ballooned into something significantly worse.

He still should have vetoed it but I wouldn't crucify him over one policy.
 
FACT:

President James Madiosn holds the record for presiding over the smallest federal government in US history. In 1811, federal spending was only 1.2% of GDP.

That would convert today to a federal government that spent only $165 billion per year.

Madison did this in a time when the US was surrounded by hostile Indians, the hostile British navy, the hostile French navy, the hostile Spanish navy, hostile pirates, and hostile wild animals like bears, cougars, and wolves.
 
Thomas Jefferson got the US involved in an entanglement in the middle east (after speaking out against this type of thing). Look it up.
No, not really. The Barbary pirates initiated aggression on peaceful, private U.S. vessels and demanded ransom/tribute money from the government. Jefferson reacted defensively and pretty minimalistically, and only after Congress gave him the go-ahead, first to direct a set of naval vessels, and then to act on a "state of war." I think he was perfectly faithful to the Constitution and to his espoused philosophy in this matter.
 
No, not really. The Barbary pirates initiated aggression on peaceful, private U.S. vessels and demanded ransom/tribute money from the government. Jefferson reacted defensively and pretty minimalistically, and only after Congress gave him the go-ahead, first to direct a set of naval vessels, and then to act on a "state of war." I think he was perfectly faithful to the Constitution and to his espoused philosophy in this matter.

good post. I also want to add that the bill passed by congress was limited to clearing the Barbary pirates from the seas, and did not allow an army on the land, beyond marines in port cities to fight the enemy navy.

This is the textbook way the Founders wanted foreign policy to be done, not like it is done today.
 
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