Avoiding Fracking Earthquakes-$10 Million Solution

[moostraks]

Heads up for fracking country:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/03/us-fracking-ohio-idUSTRE8021WD20120103

"A thorough seismic survey to assess tracts of rock below where oil and gas drilling fluid is disposed of could help detect quake prone areas.

But that would be far more costly than the traditional method of drilling a bore hole, which takes a limited sample of a rock formation but gives no hint of faults lines or plates.

The more expensive method will be a hard sell as long as irrefutable proof of the link between fracking and earthquakes remains elusive...

On paper, the link between fracking and quakes is compelling. As the oil and gas industry embarked on a massive expansion of hydraulic fracturing across Arkansas, Pennsylvania and elsewhere, the number of earthquakes in areas where wastewater was injected back underground surged tenfold...

But some researchers say the link has not been proven.

In Oklahoma, which saw a tenfold increase in earthquakes since 2009 to over 1,000, officials at the Oklahoma Geological Survey (OKGS) say more proof of a link to fracking is needed.

'The strong correlation in time and space as well as a reasonable fit to a physical model suggest that there is a possibility these earthquakes were induced by hydraulic fracturing,' according to a OKGS report released in August. "However, the uncertainties in the data make it impossible to say with a high degree of certainty.'"

So wondering how much money they make in profits + how much insurance payouts are makes $10 million per site untenable esp. when numerous plate shifting seems like it would eventually pave the way for larger scale earthquake damage. I guess if you can keep claiming natural occurence and force the opposition to absolute results people will continue to lose to this industry. The insurance loss is going to be the burden of the general public as long as they try to maintain it is a natural occurence. Insurance agencies are getting wise to this and contesting claims which leaves the little man in limbo repairing structural damage out of pocket until certain results are obtained. There is always a possibility of movement on fault lines so definitive proof seems to me to be an almost impossible task as there will always be room for doubt. Youngstown seems the most conclusive but I still think they will squirrel their way out of it, leaving the individual to clean up their mess.

 

[angelatc]

This isn't "general politics." This is a liberal cause, and while you're entitled to your opinion, posting it in Ron Paul Forums doesn't help us win any damned primaries. Take your agenda somewhere else, I'm begging you.

And this article is pure propaganda. "the link between fracking and quakes" - there's one guy out of Columbia who hates the industry making a truther / global-warming type career hyping this, and even he says it isn't the fracking - it's the wastewater injection process. (Which has actually been used since the 30's, but now that we have an internet, everybody's an expert.)

 

[Krugerrand]

Similar story leading Yahoo News right now. It may not be "the fracking" but it's part of the overall process and it's looking like better solutions are needed.

http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-earthquake-not-natural-event-expert-says-002703764.html
Ohio earthquake was not a natural event, expert says
A 4.0 magnitude earthquake in Ohio on New Year's Eve did not occur naturally and may have been caused by high-pressure liquid injection related to oil and gas exploration and production, an expert hired by the state of Ohio said on Tuesday.

Ohio's Department of Natural Resources on Sunday suspended operations at five deep well sites in Youngstown, Ohio, where the injection of water was taking place, while they evaluate seismological data from a rare quake in the area.

 

[Kelly.]

injecting water/steam/chemicals deep into the ground at extremely high pressures can mess with the faults/rock under the ground?? no way
/sarc

serious question.
in a free society, how does a property owner who thinks their water has been contaminated by a fracking well seek recourse?
is the absence of problems enough before the well was installed enough? should the property owner test his water yearly, or as soon as he notices a well in the area?
how does one enforce property rights when the offender may be a few properties away?

input appreciated.

 

[moostraks]

This isn't "general politics." This is a liberal cause, and while you're entitled to your opinion, posting it in Ron Paul Forums doesn't help us win any damned primaries. Take your agenda somewhere else, I'm begging you.

And this article is pure propaganda. "the link between fracking and quakes" - there's one guy out of Columbia who hates the industry making a truther / global-warming type career hyping this, and even he says it isn't the fracking - it's the wastewater injection process. (Which has actually been used since the 30's, but now that we have an internet, everybody's an expert.)

It is propaganda when it goes against your opinion. This is a very political issue in the Northeast section of the US right now. Long range effects from fracking earthquakes could potentially be costly to all of us if shifts lead to larger earthquakes. Stop being a petty tyrant. You seem to only have deragatory things to say unless someone is stroking your ego.

The wastewater wells are part of the fracking process. One person is making a difference in politics. Should he stop his campaign because others don't like what he has to say? You can be as dismissive as you want but the data is against your stance on the Youngstown quakes. If you don't want to read these posts then skip over them.

 

[sam1952]

The anti's like to blur the lines between fracking operations and injection wells hoping to win converts using terminology out of context to cofuse and mislead the general population. An example;

CNN headline on Monday.... "Quake forestalls 'fracking' at 4 OH sites"
and under US
"Fracking halted after Ohio quake"

When you go to read the story,
"Official: 4 Ohio fluid-injection wells cannot open in wake of quake"

Look I'm with you on the injection wells but Fracking a natural gas well and injecting brine waste are two completely different things. Injection wells are not part of the Fracking process. It is a means of disposal. There are other means of disposal which are used here in PA

 

[Krugerrand]

injecting water/steam/chemicals deep into the ground at extremely high pressures can mess with the faults/rock under the ground?? no way
/sarc

serious question.
in a free society, how does a property owner who thinks their water has been contaminated by a fracking well seek recourse?
is the absence of problems enough before the well was installed enough? should the property owner test his water yearly, or as soon as he notices a well in the area?
how does one enforce property rights when the offender may be a few properties away?

input appreciated.

That's the problem with "more government regulations." The regulations are written by the companies that are making the profits, and in so many cases get the government to declare them free of liability.

http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-earthquake-not-natural-event-expert-says-002703764.html
There are 177 so-called "class two" deep wells in Ohio, according to Tom Stewart, executive vice president of Ohio Oil and Gas Association. They all operate under federal guidelines spelled out by the Clean Water Act.

 

[Krugerrand]

The anti's like to blur the lines between fracking operations and injection wells hoping to win converts using terminology out of context to cofuse and mislead the general population. An example;

CNN headline on Monday.... "Quake forestalls 'fracking' at 4 OH sites"
and under US
"Fracking halted after Ohio quake"

When you go to read the story,
"Official: 4 Ohio fluid-injection wells cannot open in wake of quake"

Look I'm with you on the injection wells but Fracking a natural gas well and injecting brine waste are two completely different things.

they're different things, but they're related to the same process ... and property rights should be protected.

 

[sam1952]

I agree, property rights should be protected. I edited my above post to include;

Injection wells are not part of the Fracking process. It is a means of disposal. There are other means of disposal which are used here in PA

 

[moostraks]

I agree, property rights should be protected. I edited my above post to include;

Injection wells are not part of the Fracking process. It is a means of disposal. There are other means of disposal which are used here in PA

Which makes the question relevant how much is $10 million per waste site vs. alternate means. Since OH is looking to embrace this and is currently using this means of disposal and taking the cheap route when choosing dump sites, what are the alternatives so the individuals don't lose to corporate interests. The media is plugging fracking hard here, but the end results of the process have done come to light until late and here instead of blurring the line of calling injection wells fracking they are dismissing it as being unrelated which is equally untrue.

 

[moostraks]

they're different things, but they're related to the same process ... and property rights should be protected.

most definately...which is why input on alternative methods and a cost analysis for doing the injection wells the right way would be greatly appreciated from any in the know if possible. I am curious if they are grossly cutting corners or unjustly maligned as this will indicate the mindset of those looking to further exploit this areas natural resources.

 

[sam1952]

As I mentioned in another thread here they recycle the waste water for other wells and also have treatment plants. I honestly don't know if there is an injection well in PA. I know of none in my area, Washington county, near Pittsburgh. If I get more information on this I will follow up.

It is only related in the fact that it is the method of disposal chosen. As for being part of the fracking process it is not.

Hey I'm with you not injection waste into the earth when there are other means of disposal. But I am not in agreement in stopping the exploration of natural gas.

 

[Krugerrand]

As I mentioned in another thread here they recycle the waste water for other wells and also have treatment plants. I honestly don't know if there is an injection well in PA. I know of none in my area, Washington county, near Pittsburgh. If I get more information on this I will follow up.

It is only related in the fact that it is the method of disposal chosen. As for being part of the fracking process it is not.

Hey I'm with you not injection waste into the earth when there are other means of disposal. But I am not in agreement in stopping the exploration of natural gas.

I'm certainly not against Natural Gas extraction either. I've been trying to find a Marcellus Shale related job in SW PA for some time.

 

[Kelly.]

That's the problem with "more government regulations." The regulations are written by the companies that are making the profits, and in so many cases get the government to declare them free of liability.

so in a free society, how would someone protect their property?

 

[moostraks]

As I mentioned in another thread here they recycle the waste water for other wells and also have treatment plants. I honestly don't know if there is an injection well in PA. I know of none in my area, Washington county, near Pittsburgh. If I get more information on this I will follow up.

It is only related in the fact that it is the method of disposal chosen. As for being part of the fracking process it is not.

Hey I'm with you not injection waste into the earth when there are other means of disposal. But I am not in agreement in stopping the exploration of natural gas.

I don't think I have ever expressed a need to stop exploration. PP has implied such I believe. I want the industry accountable. When they recycle the water, what is then done with it? I had heard it can rendered harmless but unsure of by what process and haven't had much time to look into this yet. I started to this morning when I found today's article then got sidetracked.

 

[Krugerrand]

so in a free society, how would someone protect their property?

The court system would provide fair redress.

 

[Kelly.]

The court system would provide fair redress.

lol, good luck with that.
ever see a single property owner go up against a oil/gas company in court? do you think it is a level playing field?

any other ideas that can be used until the court system is fixed?

 

[Krugerrand]

lol, good luck with that.
ever see a single property owner go up against a oil/gas company in court? do you think it is a level playing field?

any other ideas that can be used until the court system is fixed?

I'm afraid not. The court system flows from the political system. I think we need to fix the political system first if we want to see the court system improved.

 

[axiomata]

Should Fracking actually cause earthquakes, it would probably be a good thing. Earthquakes result from plate tectonics. The stresses build up and then suddenly slip causing the earthquake. If Fracking releases those stresses earlier and more frequently then it would help prevent "big ones" that do damage.

 

[moostraks]

Should Fracking actually cause earthquakes, it would probably be a good thing. Earthquakes result from plate tectonics. The stresses build up and then suddenly slip causing the earthquake. If Fracking releases those stresses earlier and more frequently then it would help prevent "big ones" that do damage.

Unless you are in a place like Youngstown where your house, not built to weather earthquakes, provides the service unwittingly.