Argument needed for Civil War issue

Lord Xar

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What would be a good rebuttal to the following:

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The main problem with Dr. Paul's words about the civil war is that it is historically inaccurate. Abraham Lincoln DID NOT START the Civil War. When Lincoln was elected, the conflict between north and south was already at the point of complicated inevitability. The proactive decisions to go to war were made by the south.

Slavery was already dying of natural causes. The Nat Turner rebellion was so big that it caused the entire state of virginia to be evacuated, and it took the Virginia State Militia and the U.S. Army to put it down. Along with the Nat Turner rebellion was a enormous plethora of slave revolts that number by the hundreds that do not find themselves in history books for various reasons. Yet, the south continued to be stubborn and insist that slavery remained. This threatened the internal security of the United States, as slave revolts were trans-state.

Abraham Lincoln DID want to avoid war. The Confederacy was the aggressor, not the Union. Abraham Lincoln had no choice but to engage in civil war, and his stalling of having to respond to confederate agression is what made it so hard for the Union army to win the first few battles of the war, which were lost because the Union army was fought on a war strategy that was thrown together at tle last minute.

Dr. Paul's stance is textbook neoconfederate revisionism.

Neoconfederate revisionism argues that the civil war was about economics and not about slavery. Slavery and economics are not mutually exclusive in this historical context. Yes it was about economics, and yes it was about slavery... because the economics of the south was based on the institution of slavery, and the continued presence of slavery began to interfere with the economy of the north. The neoconfederates fallaciously try to spin them into being mutually exclusive variables, but they are not.
 
Wait, wait...wait... they think the war was to end slavery?
 
Quote from Lincoln's Inaugural address:

"It follows from these views that no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence within any State or States against the authority of the United States are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances."

It is completely the opposite to what Spooner wrote.
 
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that...I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free. "

Abraham Lincoln

Link to document:
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm
 
The Confederates had the right to cecede. Every state had a right to leave the union whenever they wanted.

The Confederates never invaded the North nor did they have any intention. Most people in the North just wanted to let them go. It was Lincoln's crusade.
 
What would be a good rebuttal to the following:

**************************

The main problem with Dr. Paul's words about the civil war is that it is historically inaccurate. Abraham Lincoln DID NOT START the Civil War.

Did Ron Paul ever say "Lincoln started the civil war"? If so, I can't seem to find it anywhere. I did hear him say "Lincoln was wrong to go to war". The two statements are not the same. The second statement does not make any assertion as to who started the war and who did not. It simply stated that it was wrong to go into it. Why are some people saying that Ron Paul thinks Lincoln started the civil war, when he actually never made such an assertion. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Can anyone point out where he said "Lincoln started the civil war"? I can't seem to find it.
 
Ron Paul is talking about history and issues.

The other candidates are talking about nothing, but usuing buzz words.

Whenever someone gets into it like this with you, ask them about the other candidates opinions on free markets, federalism, constitutional authority...

What they will find, even if they may disagree, is that Ron Paul is the only person really saying anything at all.
 
What would be a good rebuttal to the following:

**************************

The main problem with Dr. Paul's words about the civil war is that it is historically inaccurate. Abraham Lincoln DID NOT START the Civil War. When Lincoln was elected, the conflict between north and south was already at the point of complicated inevitability. The proactive decisions to go to war were made by the south.

Well that's true. Some of the states were pulling out before Lincoln was even inaugurated.

Anyway, the best answer to the "Lincoln/Paul/slavery" question is that Lincoln tried the same "compensated emancipation" scheme Ron Paul was talking about on Meet The Press. I'm not sure if Dr. Paul is aware of this. This shows that Lincoln really WAS trying to free the slaves. But it also shows that Ron Paul's plan isn't that "kooky" since Lincoln tried (but failed) to do the same thing.

Oh, and for those still in denial. Slavery really was one of the main motivating factors leading to the civil war. Lincoln wasn't trying to free the slaves outright because the constitution expressly forbade him from doing that. But he did try to restrict the expansion of slavery. In doing so he hoped to get the 2/3rds majority needed to ratify a constitutional amendment.

Regards,

John M. Drake
 
Lincoln failed to pro-actively recognize the validity of southern secession and kept federal troops in South Carolina by default. Eventually South Carolina asserted her sovereign rights and opened fire.
 
The main problem with Dr. Paul's words about the civil war is that it is historically inaccurate. Abraham Lincoln DID NOT START the Civil War. When Lincoln was elected, the conflict between north and south was already at the point of complicated inevitability.

I was unaware Lincoln first appeared on the national political stage the day he was elected, but whatever.

The proactive decisions to go to war were made by the south.

Unless they can point to a specific act of aggression by the Southern states against a Northern state, this is just BS rhetoric. What the hell is a "proactive decision to go to war"? Whether you agree with their reasons or not, the southern states legally voted to secede. The North refused to accept that, and shots were fired on northern targets to remove them from southern soil.
 
Abraham Lincoln DID want to avoid war. The Confederacy was the aggressor, not the Union. Abraham Lincoln had no choice but to engage in civil war, and his stalling of having to respond to confederate agression is what made it so hard for the Union army to win the first few battles of the war, which were lost because the Union army was fought on a war strategy that was thrown together at tle last minute.

The US troops occupying a portion of South Carolina were given every opportunity to leave. They repeatedly refused, and only then were they fired upon. South Carolina was simply defending its territorial integrity from an occupying federal force which was attempting to block access to the Charleston harbor.

Neoconfederate revisionism argues that the civil war was about econocs and not about slavery. Slavery and economics are not mutually exclusive in this historical context. Yes it was about economics, and yes it was about slavery... because the economics of the south was based on the institution of slavery, and the continued presence of slavery began to interfere with the economy of the north. The neoconfederates fallaciously try to spin them into being mutually exclusive variables, but they are not.

Unionist revisionism argues that the Southern economy was the only beneficiary of slavery, when in fact the majority of the slave trade -- even after it was outlawed -- was carried out by New England merchants.

http://slavenorth.com/
 
The US troops occupying a portion of South Carolina were given every opportunity to leave. They repeatedly refused, and only then were they fired upon. South Carolina was simply defending its territorial integrity from an occupying federal force which was attempting to block access to the Charleston harbor.



Unionist revisionism argues that the Southern economy was the only beneficiary of slavery, when in fact the majority of the slave trade -- even after it was outlawed -- was carried out by New England merchants.

http://slavenorth.com/

Southern revisionism builds the straw man that "union revisionism" says the only beneficiary of slavery was the south. :rolleyes: Really that's the first time I've heard this claim. And the "majority of the slave trade" represented a trickle after the slave trade was outlawed. (Don't forget the slave trade would have been banned sooner than it was if not for the protestations of SC).

It's really not that complicated. Slavery was phased out in the North because of the weather. (Shorter growing seasons. Harsher winters to keep slaves feed and housed.) Because slavery was phased out it was easier for abolitionist to agitate in the North. This affected Northern politics. The North had enough power to elect an anti slavery president (Lincoln) but not enough to amend the constitution. That's why Lincoln wanted to stop the expansion of slavery. The south saw the writing on the wall and decided to get out while the getting was good. Was the south mad about other issues such as tariffs and "fish smacks"? Sure. But those things weren't about to change with the election of Lincoln. It was the expansion of slavery into the new territories that was at stake.

Anyway, we have two stark choices here. We can refight the civil war amongst ourselves, or we can try to get Ron Paul elected. If getting Ron Paul elected is the primary concern than the best thing to do IMO is to take the "Lincoln" issue off of the table by pointed out that what Dr. Paul was proposing is what Lincoln tried (and failed) to do with the border states. That shows that it's not a "kooky" idea.

Regards,

John M. Drake
 
The Civil War issue is not an issue that will win RP votes. Why is there so much interest in discussing it?
 
The Civil War issue is not an issue that will win RP votes. Why is there so much interest in discussing it?

Because people keep offering up the "official story" as the absolute truth, when so many know otherwise (yes, I know that slavery was a factor in the drive for secession, but maintain that secession did not necessitate war).

But I agree, it's probably pointless to discuss it much here. I'll just take satisfaction from the fact that Ron's statements on Lincoln have probably helped him make inroads in the South, where people are less inclined to the idiocy of Lincoln-worship, despite the best attempts of the public schools to feed them the "official story".
 
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The Civil War issue is not an issue that will win RP votes. Why is there so much interest in discussing it?

True. It can't win him votes. It could lose a few though. That's why my view is simple. Forget about arguing the civil war and just point out that Lincoln tried to do the same thing Paul was talking about on Meet The Press.

Regards,

John M. Drake
 
The Civil War issue is not an issue that will win RP votes. Why is there so much interest in discussing it?

Because people ask you about it when you talk to them and you just can't sit there and say nothing. You need to address the issue if they ask about it and because of the irrelevant recent publicity regarding it, they do ask about it.
 
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Lincoln and the star of the war

You've asked an excellent question here. I wrote and published a book on the constitutionality of secession in 2006 (see sig line) and also examined some other related issues, including the contention that Lincoln was forced into fighting because the South attacked Fort Sumter. I devoted one of the more detailed chapters of my book to this issue, and although it's too complicated to go into here in anything resembling a complete fashion, I can give you the highlights.

This will be a lengthy post, but I think it's long past time that we dispel the myth that the Confederacy fired on Fort Sumter in a naked act of aggression.

Here are the key things you should know:

1. The Confederates tried to negotiate with Lincoln.


Jefferson Davis sent three commissioners to Washington shortly before Lincoln's inaugural. They bore this letter of good will from the Confederate president:

Sir: Being animated by an earnest desire to unite and bind together
our respective countries by friendly ties, I have appointed Martin J. Crawford, one of our most esteemed and trustworthy citizens, as special Commissioner of the Confederate States to the Government of the United States; and I have now the honor to introduce him to you, and to ask for him a reception and treatment
corresponding to his station, and to the purposes for which he is sent.

The Confederates also included a provision regarding their desire to settle all outstanding matters with the United States in their provisional constitution.

2. Lincoln refused to acknowledge the Confederacy's efforts to negotiate, and actually lied to Congress about their intentions while making his case for war.

The Confederates tried to get an audience with Lincoln from the time of his inauguration until the start of the war. They sent a letter to Secretary of State Seward, who would not meet with them directly but agreed to exchange correspondence through the auspices of two Supreme Court justices. Seward told them repeatedly that Fort Sumter would be evacuated. It's probable that he actually thought this was the case in the beginning, but toward the end he knew better, and yet he continued to provide false assurances. Needless to say, the Confederates didn't appreciate this. It heightened their distrust of Washington and made them wonder if they were being lulled into a false sense of security while Lincoln prepared to strike at them.

Finally, Seward sent the commissioners a letter indicating that the administration would not negotiate with them. The commissioners informed Jefferson Davis:

“We never had a chance to make Lincoln an offer of any kind. You can’t negotiate with a man who says you don’t exist.”

Noah Brooks, a reporter and personal friend of Lincoln’s, wrote that Lincoln would not negotiate with the Confederates because he would not “permit himself to be seduced into recognizing any persons as ambassadors or emissaries sent from the so-called President Davis,” as Lincoln denied the legitimacy of the Confederate government. Beyond this point, however, Brooks went on to say that there was no reason for Lincoln to negotiate anyway because, “Negotiation implies that the rebellion was not without cause and that the Government stands ready to make just concessions; it argues governmental inability to conquer a peace”

Lincoln knew of the presence of these commissioners and their mission to settle all matters between the United States and the Confederate States, and he refused to have anything to do with them. He even referred to their attempts to negotiate with the United States in his second inaugural address:

While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place,
devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war; seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation.

But on July 4, 1861, Lincoln stated the following to Congress while making his case for war:

The nation purchased with money the countries out of which several
of these States were formed: is it just that they shall go off without leave and without refunding? The nation paid very large sums (in the aggregate, I believe, nearly a hundred millions) to relieve Florida of its aboriginal tribes: is it just that she shall now be off without consent, or without making any return?

So what we have here is Lincoln accusing the Southern states of attempting to leave the Union without paying their fair share of the debts, and then later priding himself before the country on having resisted their attempts to negotiate on those debts. Can anything be more disingenuous?

3. Southerners had other reasons besides Secretary Seward to believe that Sumter would be evacuated.

One of Lincoln's personal friends, Ward Hill Lamon, traveled to Sumter and spoke with Major Anderson, the garrison commander at Fort Sumter, along with Governor Francis Pickens. Although he was very devoted to Lincoln – and would eventually serve as his bodyguard – Lamon favored the peace policies of Secretary of State Seward in the Sumter affair, and actually went so far as to inform Major Anderson and Governor Pickens that no relief expedition would be attempted for Sumter. When Lincoln heard of Lamon’s promises to Anderson and Pickens, he was outraged and declared that Lamon had never been given authority to make any such statements. Still, due to his stubborn refusal to communicate with representatives from the seceded states (who, as he knew, were in Washington seeking an audience with him even then), Lincoln made no attempt to correct Lamon’s misinformation. Governor Pickens, Major Anderson, and the Confederate States government proceeded under the assumption that Sumter would be given up, believing that they had the authority of a presidential representative to that effect.

When Major Anderson later heard that Lincoln was not giving up the fort but was actually sending a "relief" expedition, he had the following to say:

I trust that this matter will be at once put in a correct light, as a movement made now, when the South has been erroneously informed that none such will be attempted, would produce most disastrous results throughout our country.

It is, of course, now too late for me to give any advice in reference to the proposed scheme of Captain Fox [the architect of Lincoln's plan]. I fear that its result cannot fail to be disastrous to all concerned...

I ought to have been informed that this expedition was to come. Colonel Lamon’s remark convinced me that the idea, merely hinted at to me by Captain Fox, would not be carried out. We shall strive to do our duty, though I frankly say that my heart is not in the war which I see is to be thus commenced. That God will still
avert it, and cause us to resort to pacific measures to maintain our rights, is my ardent prayer.

4. Lincoln and his cabinet knew that any attempt to relieve Sumter would start a war.

Shortly after entering office, Lincoln polled his cabinet as to whether he should try and relieve Sumter. To his chagrin, his cabinet was against it, as well as the military. General-in-chief Winfield Scott remarked:

The proposition presented by Mr. Fox, so sincerely entertained and ably advocated, would be entitled to my favorable consideration if, with all the light before me and in the face of so many distinguished military authorities on the other side, I did not believe that the attempt to carry it into effect would initiate a bloody and protracted conflict…

Scott went on to quote a letter from Major Anderson in which Anderson stated that it would take a force of no less than 20,000 “good and well-disciplined men” to seize control of Charleston harbor and effectively re-supply Fort Sumter. Scott also made it clear that the majority of his advisors concurred with Anderson’s opinion and advised against attempting such a mission. He then concluded his response to Lincoln with the following notation:

No practical benefit will result to the country or the Government by accepting the proposal alluded to, and I am therefore of opinion that the cause of humanity and the highest obligation to the public interest would be best promoted by adopting the counsels of those brave and experienced men whose suggestions I have laid before you.

In the cabinet, Secretary Seward was of the firm belief that any attempt to resupply Sumter would “provoke combat, and probably initiate a civil war”. Attorney General Bates, while he believed that South Carolina had already “struck the first blow” was, nevertheless, reluctant to do anything “which may have the semblance…of beginning a civil war, the terrible consequences of which would, I think, find no parallel in modern times”.

Later, Lincoln's cabinet heads changed their minds and approved the plan to resupply Fort Sumter, believing that, if war was to come it would be best to have it start in such a way. Lincoln himself openly acknowledged the inevitability of conflict where his plan was concerned but, with his cabinet behind him, was determined to press forward with it in spite of the consequences. As Allan Nevins observes in his War for the Union: “To a friend he remarked that he was ‘in the dumps’ – for he knew that he must try to relieve Sumter, and relief meant war.”

5. Lincoln actively provoked the Confederates into firing that first shot because he was in a dilemma, and the Confederates firing the first shot was the only way out for him whereby he would not look like an aggressor.


Lincoln was advised to employ this tactic by his friend Senator Orville Browning of Illinois, among others, and for the very purpose of attempting to place the Southern states in the wrong, as illustrated by the following excerpt from one of Browning’s letters to Lincoln:

In any conflict…between the government and the seceding States,
it is very important that the traitors shall be the aggressors, and that they be kept constantly and palpably in the wrong. The first attempt…to furnish supplies or reinforcements to [Fort] Sumter will induce aggression by South Carolina, and then the government will stand justified, before the entire country, in repelling that aggression, and retaking the forts.

Writing to Orville Browning after the Confederacy attacked Fort Sumter, Lincoln stated: “The plan succeeded…They attacked Sumter – it fell, and thus, did more service than it otherwise could.” To Gustavus Fox, the architect of his re-supply plan, Lincoln wrote:

"You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Fort Sumpter, even if it should fail; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result."

The question to ask here is how could Lincoln claim to be “justified” by the result of his plan when the result was war? Unless, of course, that was the plan. True to Browning’s advice, Lincoln had placed the Confederacy on the horns of a most unpleasant dilemma. If the Confederates allowed Fort Sumter to remain in Union hands, they would have essentially surrendered their claims to independence. They would also have been allowing a foreign government to retain control of a key defensive position in the midst of one of their few good ports. On the other hand, if they did strike out at the fort, they risked being labeled as aggressors, and, in the words of Browning, the United States government would “stand justified…in repelling that aggression, and retaking the forts”. Either way, Lincoln won and he knew it. In the words of Shelby Foote, Lincoln’s plan was to “await an act of aggression by the South, exerting in the interim just enough pressure to provoke such an act, without exerting enough to justify it”. Historian James McPherson has referred to Lincoln’s strategy as “a stroke of genius,” remarking that, “in effect, he was telling Jefferson Davis, ‘heads I win, tails you lose’”

Lincoln biographer David Donald comments that Lincoln was in a “contradictory position” because he had vowed “not to be the first to shed fraternal blood. But he had also vowed not to surrender the forts”:

The only resolution of these contradictory positions was for the Confederates to fire the first shot. The attempt to relieve Fort Sumter provoked them to do just that.

6. The Confederates tried every way they could think of to get Anderson and his men out of Sumter before Lincoln's fleet arrived.

On the afternoon of March 11, 1861, two of General Beauregard’s aids were dispatched to Anderson with a letter advising him that Beauregard had been ordered to take possession of Sumter. Anderson declined to surrender the garrison, but stated to Beauregard’s aids that if the Confederates did not “batter us to pieces” the garrison would be starved out in a few days anyway.

Beauregard included this information along with Anderson’s written response in a transmission to the Confederate government, and received instructions allowing him to wait as long as possible for Anderson to abandon the fort. In a follow-up communication, Anderson announced that he would abandon the fort on April 15, but Jefferson Davis later stated that Beauregard could not accept Anderson’s terms due to the fact that the re-supply mission would arrive well before noon on April 15, as well as the fact that any confrontation with those ships entering the harbor would release Major Anderson from his agreement not to fire on the Confederates. For these reasons, Beauregard determined that he had no other choice but to open fire and “reduce” Fort Sumter before the re-supply fleet could arrive.

I include this info here to demonstrate that the Confederate government was not chomping at the bit to spill blood. They suspected that Lincoln might be intending to retake all of the forts in Charleston harbor, or even to invade the city itself. For that reason, they decided to take control of Sumter before the fleet could arrive, lest they find themselves confronting the guns of a naval flotilla in combination those of Anderson. “A deadly weapon has been aimed at our heart,” Jefferson Davis said in summary of the Confederate position, “only a fool would wait until the shot has been fired.”

***

A few final thoughts from my book:

If Lincoln had no other choice but war in meeting the issue of secession, it was he who put himself in that position. There were other alternatives available, including negotiation. The South was certainly willing to negotiate. It actively tried to negotiate. It had nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from negotiation. Nor would holding negotiations with the Confederates have been equivalent to recognizing their independence or granting them some sort of legitimacy. President Washington attempted negotiation with the Whiskey Rebellion insurgents in 1795 but, in doing so, he certainly did not recognize their movement as legitimate, nor did anyone believe that he had. Lincoln appealed to other precedents set by Washington at that time – why not this one as well?

In the final analysis, Lincoln made a very simple, informed choice concerning the matter of secession. He did have options other than war. He could have referred the matter to Congress, called for a constitutional conference, or suggested a special election to ascertain the will of the American people. He did none of these things. Instead, he determined that he would adopt one course and pursue it inflexibly.

The facts of the situation and the opinions of his friends and advisors were before him; he understood the implications. He went forward, knowing what the result would be, and trying to color the circumstances so they would be as favorable to his cause as possible.
 
It's about the truth. Lying is what other politicians do to get elected. Ron Paul stands for the truth. That is what makes him the greatest politician of our time.

At the heart of this is people accepting the idea that views pushed upon them by those in power are not true. Unless people start to actively question what is going on nothing will ever change.
 
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