Are We Nearing Civil War?

I don't think its impossible, but I am young enough to remember how crazy my mind was when I was young, I don't know if it was like this for other people but before my brain was grown I didn't perceive my future self as the same person as myself, and I didn't give a fuck about any consequences that the other person had to deal with.
Yeah, it's tough being a kid.

Made some bad decisions myself and had to live with them.
 
There are lots of reasons for unwanted pregnancies including alcohol which is probably the biggest one of all...lol..One of the pills was recalled just this month because the first 4 pills were placebos. Personally I don't view sex as an act of reproduction first. Most people don't and that is the evolution of our species. I also do not condone abortions but will stand by the rights of others to chose. I want the government out of my business period. Through education, the amount of abortions have been steadily decreasing and I think that's a good thing. For those who think of it as a moral issue....such morality is relative to each individual, it is not universal.
 
For those who think of it as a moral issue....such morality is relative to each individual, it is not universal.
Just thinking what they are doing isn't wrong doesn't make them any more in the right. It just means that you cannot judge them the same way as one who knows right from wrong.
 
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Part 1

"Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a 'right to life.' A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable."
- Ayn Rand .

Ignorant statement. A preborn baby is not a “potential" human being, it already is a human being, simply in a different stage of life. That is a scientific fact.

Some quotes from medical textbooks and doctors:

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”

Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

____

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

____

“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.”

Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

____

Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D. was the first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization:

“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.”

From Landrum B. Shettles “Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth” Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1983 p 40
____

National Institutes of Health

The government’s own definition attests to the fact that life begins at fertilization. According to the National Institutes of Health, “fertilization” is the process of union of two gametes (i.e., ovum and sperm) “whereby the somatic chromosome number is restored and the development of a new individual is initiated.”

Steven Ertelt “Undisputed Scientific Fact: Human Life Begins at Conception, or Fertilization”

____

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”

James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

____

“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.

Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

____

“Human life begins when the ovum is fertilized and the new combined cell mass begins to divide.”

Dr. Jasper Williams, Former President of the National Medical Association (p 74)

____

“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”

Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55

____

“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3

____

“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.”

Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

____

“but the whole story does not begin with delivery. The baby has existed for months before – at first signaling its presence only with small outer signs, later on as a somewhat foreign little being which has been growing and gradually affecting the lives of those close by…”

Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition (Dell Publishing Co.: New York) 1986

____

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

____

“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

____

“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:​


"no being has a right to live, unbidden, as a parasite within or upon some person's body" and that therefore the woman is entitled to eject the fetus from her body at any time"
- Murray Rothbard

Even more ignorant.
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He acts as if the baby just magically appeared or even worse, was the aggressor against the mother. I'm sorry but the baby did not bring himself into this world. In 99% of all cases, it was the actions of the mother and father that brought the baby into the world in the first place. Sorry Murray, but the child is 100% innocent. Period.

Mr. Rothbard should read this article, from libertarians for life:

Why a Human Embryo or Fetus is Not a Parasite - by Prof. Thomas L. Johnson

a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host).

b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (**** sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (**** sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.

b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.

a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.

b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.

a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).

b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.

a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).

b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.

a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)

b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant", indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.

a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce.

b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which mustbegin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.

a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).
b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

A parasite is an organism that associates with the host in a negative, unhealthy and nonessential (nonessential to the host) manner which will often damage the host and detrimentally affect the procreative capacity of the host (and species).

A human embryo or fetus is a human being that associates with the mother in a positive, healthful essential manner necessary for the procreation of the species.​
 
Yeah, it's tough being a kid.

Made some bad decisions myself and had to live with them.
Ideologies are weird man, we subscribe to these false ideologies all the time. It's okay if the cop murdered someone, he was just doing his job he made a mistake. It's okay if the government takes your hard earned money that's how the government gets funded. The mass delusion isn't that everyone isn't crazy, its the way we split hairs when we call some people more sane then others. At a certain point everybody checks off some boxes on the psychopath checklist.
 
Part 2

"The ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion."
- Ron Paul/

This does not negate what I said earlier, so I'm not sure why you're posting it.


LIBERTARIAN PRINCIPLES VERSUS ABORTION PROHIBITION

(Yada yada yada)

http://pro-choicelibertarians.net/principles/


Sounded more like a leftist than a libertarian.
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Here's something for you to read. (I cut out some parts because it was too many characters to post here.)


I. RIGHTS AND OBLIGATION: A LIBERTARIAN FRAMEWORK

Abortion proponents equate unwanted pregnancy with involuntary servitude and slavery, often framing their arguments with "pro-choice" and other libertarian-sounding rights talk. After all, libertarians support the right to control one's own body, and since 1974 the Libertarian Party's platform has unconditionally supported abortion choice until birth.

Many libertarians, however, find abortion to be contrary to libertarian principles and goals. According to Ron Paul, "Today, we are seeing a piecemeal destruction of individual freedom. And in abortion, the statists have found a most effective method of obliterating freedom: obliterating the individual." 1 Dr. Paul, an obstetrician and a member of Congress (R-TX), was the Libertarian Party's candidate for President in 1988.

The Libertarian Party's "Statement of Principles" itself defends "the right to life." In the past, the platform has said, "Children are human beings and, as such, have all the rights of human beings."2 Are children human beings prenatally? Despite the fact that this is the pivotal question in the abortion debate, the platform is silent.

In response to such shortcomings, Libertarians for Life (LFL) was formed in 1976. As is standard in libertarian discussion, LFL brings a philosophical, rather than a religious or merely pragmatic, perspective to the abortion debate.3 Being libertarian, LFL opposes the use of state power to enforce policies or principles that cannot be supported on the grounds of defense against aggressors. The state should not side with any aggressor at the expense of the victim. If abortion is an evil that violates rights, then libertarians, of all people, should not want the state to defend and protect the evil-doing.

Two tiers of human offspring?

The unalienable right not to be unjustly killed applies equally to all human beings. Day One in a human being's life occurs at fertilization — that is high school biology. If pregnant women are human beings, why not when they themselves were zygotes? A two-tiered legal policy on human offspring that defines a superior class with rights, and an inferior class without rights, is not libertarian.

In her 1963 article, "Man's Rights," Ayn Rand held a single-tier position. "There are no 'rights' of special groups," she said, "there are no 'rights of farmers, of workers, of businessmen, of employees, of employers, of the old, of the young, of the unborn.' There are only the Rights of Man — rights possessed by every individual man and by all men as individuals."4

Rand, whose philosophy of Objectivism helped found today's libertarian movement, was, however, an impassioned abortion choicer. She called "the unborn...the nonliving," and in the same breath said, "One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months."5 Elsewhere, she said "that a human being's life begins at birth."6

Inequality under rights goes against the idea of having rights. This inconsistency leads many to conclude that unwanted pregnancy must be an insoluble clash between the unalienable rights of two people: the child's right not to be killed and the woman's right to liberty. Some libertarian abortion choicers claim there is a solution. They argue that no one has a right to impose unchosen obligations upon others; therefore, even given prenatal humanity, abortion is a permissible escape from slavery. They think Rand supports their view. "No man can have a right," she said, "to impose an unchosen obligation, an unrewarded duty or an involuntary servitude on another man. There can be no such thing as 'the right to enslave'." 7

Still, Objectivism denies that child support is slavery. In discussing born children, Nathaniel Branden, when he was Rand's closest associate, wrote, "The key to understanding the nature of parental obligation lies in the moral principle that human beings must assume responsibility for the consequences of their actions." He did not explain exactly why we must. Yet he was correct to insist that "the basic necessities of food, clothing, etc.," are the child's "by right."8

Given this right of children, then the "insoluble" clash is solved, and unwanted pregnancy is neither slavery nor involuntary servitude. There may be a clash of needs between parent and child — but not a clash of rights.9 Given personhood, a human fetus has the same right as every innocent person not to be attacked and killed. What is more, since her parents owe her support and protection from harm, she has the right to reside in her mother's womb and take nourishment there.

The non-aggression principle

The unalienable right to life, liberty, and property is, essentially, only one: the right to be free from aggression. This right stems from the obligation not to aggress against anyone; this right and this obligation are opposite sides of the same coin.

Libertarianism does not address morality in general. It addresses only one category of good versus evil: justice versus injustice, non-aggression versus aggression. To violate another's rights is to be unjust. Libertarianism's basic principle is the obligation not to violate rights. This non-aggression principle is the foundation, the sine qua non, of a moral society. We owe others non-aggression. People who commit murder, theft, kidnapping, rape, or fraud, or fail to pay their just debts, are aggressors.

No matter the circumstances, no individual or government may use the sword, except in fair responses to rights violations. Implicit in the non-aggression principle is the right of defense. We have no obligation to allow others to succeed in attacking us before we react. There is a related principle: no one has a right to negligently or intentionally endanger the innocent and then allow the harm to happen. If we endanger others without their consent, we incur a positive obligation to prevent the harm. This might be called the non-endangerment principle: you endanger them — you protect them from the harm.

Non-aggression is an ongoing obligation: it is never optional for anyone, even pregnant women. If the non-aggression obligation did not apply, then earning money versus stealing it and consensual sex versus rape would be morally indifferent behaviors.

The obligation not to aggress is pre-political and pre-legal. It does not arise out of contract, agreement, or the law; rather, such devices presuppose this obligation. The obligation would exist even in a state of nature. This is because the obligation comes with our human nature, and we acquire this nature at conception.

Each of us has this obligation regardless of contrary personal opinions, consensus, or laws. We have it whether we wish to obey it or not. We have it even when others are not able to defend themselves. This obligation can neither be created nor destroyed. It is logically necessary to the concepts of liberty and property.

Nor should we confuse unalienable rights with "legal rights." In an ideal world, legal rights would be concrete applications of the unalienable right to be free from aggression. Unfortunately, legal rights frequently are, instead, grants of special powers and privileges to some at the expense of others.

The Declaration of Independence states that governments derive "their just powers from the consent of the governed." This assertion means that for government to derive a just power, the power must first reside in the individual. If I consent, my lawyers can derive from me a just power to handle my bank account. But they cannot derive from me a just power to handle my neighbor's bank account, whether I consent or not.

If one does not have a just power, one cannot give it to one's lawyer or to the government. The governed have no just power to aggress, so they cannot give politicians a just power to aggress. Even if 10 billion individuals told their politicians to aggress, the sum of their consents would still be zero. Making an action legal does not make it a right under justice if it is inherently unjust. Legalized aggression is still aggression.

.............

Begging the basic question

Abortion choicers often talk as if abortion is something a pregnant woman does only to herself, as if abortion were a victimless-crime debate. But the charge against abortion is that abortion is homicide, the killing of one human being, or person, by another. Prenatal humanity is the pivotal question in abortion. If abortion were a victimless crime, it should be legal. If it is homicide, then what about the victim? The law must not treat any homicide as if no one were killed.

The most notable evasion of the homicide charge was made by the United States Supreme Court on January 22, 1973. In two cases, Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton, seven of the nine justices on the Court legalized abortion on demand until birth. To rationalize their decision, they inappropriately invoked the right of privacy — while sidestepping both the moral nature and the rights of the prenatal child.

Writing for the seven, Justice Harry A. Blackmun proclaimed, "We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins." His explanation for why not was unsatisfactory. He went on to explain: "When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary at this point in the development of man's knowledge is not in a position to speculate as to the answer."10 This admission of intellectual inadequacy on the main objection to abortion — homicide — merely serves to prove that the judiciary had no good reason to legalize abortion.

Even some respected constitutional legal scholars who support abortion choice, such as John Hart Ely, were appalled by Roe. In a 1973 article, he called Roe "frightening"11 and explained why he thought "it is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be."12

How should courts act when undecided on pivotal questions affecting two parties and when they cannot avoid making a decision? Tossing a coin will not do in such cases. Their only reasonable course is to weigh the possible injuries that they would impose by a wrongful decision either way and then choose to avoid the worst possibility. When a human being's life is on the block, a proper legal system gives the benefit of the doubt to life. This is why even advocates of capital punishment call for stringent proof. If individuals accused of felonies get the benefit of such doubt, why not the beings in the womb?

What possible wrongful injuries should the Roe Court have considered? The pregnant woman allegedly faces a partial and temporary loss of liberty; her fetus, however, allegedly faces the total and permanent loss of life and therefore liberty as well. The answer is obvious. The Court should have decided for life. Instead, the Court wrote that "the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense."

Interestingly, lack of legal personhood is not necessarily a disqualification for legal protection under current law. For example, eagles and their eggs are not considered persons, yet they have legal protection. In Roe, the Court went beyond a two-tiered view of humanity that perceives human fetuses as inferior to human adults, for it saw human fetuses as also inferior to eagle fetuses.

But legal personhood is no protection when the strong want to subjugate the weak. Many years ago, as Sir William Blackstone wrote, "By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in law, that is, the very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during marriage or at least is incorporated and consolidated into that of the husband."13 What Roe did was to suspend the very being and legal existence of the child during pregnancy.

Black people of African descent are called "Persons" in Article I, Section 2 of the US Constitution, and they were referred to as persons by Chief Justice Roger B. Taney in Dred Scott. But they were "not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word 'citizen' in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States. On the contrary," Taney wrote, "they were at that time considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings, who had been subjugated by the dominant race, and, whether emancipated or not, yet remained subject to their authority, and had no rights or privileges but such as those who held the power and the Government might choose to grant them."14

In 1774, two years before he wrote the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson wrote, "The God, who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them."15 Jefferson understood that holding slaves was not right, yet he held them. His position on abortion and when personhood begins may not be known, but his words at least appear to affirm that our lives and rights co-exist.

Confronting the inherent contradiction between freedom and slavery is The Law by Frédéric Bastiat, a Frenchman. Published in 1850, it is now basic libertarian reading. Bastiat asked, suppose a principle "sometimes creates slavery and sometimes liberty?" He replied, "This confusion of objective will slowly enfeeble the law and impair the constitution."16 He also wrote, "We hold from God the gift which includes all others. This gift is life — physical, intellectual, and moral life."17

Treating "personhood" as a legal privilege is wrong. Unalienable rights presume personhood. Since unalienable rights are pre-legal, so is personhood.18 Personhood is a natural metaphysical fact, not an arbitrary legal artifact. In the end, Roe left the door open to further hearing of when personhood begins, but the Court would rather not come to grips with it. Later, it rejected two cases on when one's life begins that were brought by the fathers of aborted children.19

If the Court could have shown that abortion is not homicide, it would have done so. And that would have resolved the debate, at least for libertarians. Libertarians support the right to privacy. But homicide, the killing of one human being by another, is not a private matter. It is not a simple matter of choice. If it were, then "rights" would mean that the weak have no rights, and libertarianism and the very idea of rights would be meaningless.

II. SCIENTIFIC AND PHILOSOPHICAL FACTS OF LIFE:
WHY ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

Biologically, when does life begin?

Why do people say, "Children come into the world at birth," sounding as if storks bring them? Obstetricians know that at conception the woman has already reproduced, that they now have not one but two patients to consider: mother and child. Since a pregnant woman is in the world, her womb is in the world, and so is the fetus in her womb; she has been in the world since Day One — conception. The media reported a case where one twin was born October 15, 1994, and his sister, January 18, 1995.20 What their different birthdays will mark is only the dates each exited the womb.

When does the human being begin life — at least in simple biological terms? Unless abortion and related issues are raised, people generally know that their own lives had a neat beginning at conception.

A human being's growth is a continuum: from zygote, to embryo, to fetus, to newborn, to adult. Such terms do not indicate a series of discrete entities; they are merely useful labels for pointing to different stages of the development of the self-same individual. A frog is not the descendant of the tadpole; frog and tadpole are one and the same animal. The infant does not descend from the fetus; infant and fetus are one and the same individual.

There is a sharp distinction between before and after conception. A gamete, a sperm or an ovum, is a radically different kind of thing from the zygote that results when the sperm penetrates the ovum. By itself, no sperm or ovum has the power to mature into an adult. Gametes that do not unite end up as dead gametes. Those that do unite cease to exist; what exists then is a radically different kind of entity.

Fertilized ova, zygotes, have the power to mature into adults. Still, it is difficult to think that the zygote inside one's mother was "me." But by playing one's life in reverse, as if in a movie, getting younger day by day until we reach Day One, we find no way to identify any day when we were essentially different from the day before — until conception. The moment before, there was no "me." If a different sperm of my father had fused with my mother's ovum, it would not have been me but someone else, a boy perhaps.

Dr. Edmund A. Opitz observed: "Nobel laureate and geneticist Francis Crick has estimated that the amount of information contained in the chromosomes of a single fertilized human egg is equivalent to about a thousand printed volumes of books, each as large as a volume of the Encyclopaedia Britannica." Dr. Opitz added, "What does this mite of human life accomplish during these first 20 weeks? Our little genius, beginning as a fertilized egg, operating in cramped quarters, poor light and with unlikely materials, takes less than five months to manufacture a brain, plus a few minor organs. Not bad for a beginner?"21

Philosophy: When does personhood begin?

Life, personhood, and rights are separate and distinct subjects. In ordinary conversation, "life," "human life," and "human being" can be used interchangeably with "person" without difficulty. However, when abortion is at issue, they are not necessarily synonymous. Sometimes they are meant in a biological sense, at other times philosophically, and still other times, there is a switching back and forth, often without recognizing there has been a change in meaning.

Biology, a life science, does not delve into either personhood or rights. An inquiry regarding when personhood begins — and, therefore, when rights begin — must turn from biology to philosophy. In philosophy, a more precise label for entities with rights is not "human being" but "person." Libertarian principles do not define "person"; they simply take personhood as a given.

How should we define "person"? A definition that is accepted even by many abortion proponents, especially among libertarians, is that a "person" is an animal with the capacity for reason and choice. This capacity, this rational nature, is what establishes us as beings with the obligation not to aggress.

Given this definition, the argument is: 1) animals with the capacity for reason and choice are persons; 2) human zygotes are animals with that capacity; 3) therefore human zygotes are persons.

Many would respond: Nice syllogism, but in reality, it's impossible for human zygotes to have the capacity for reason and choice. Such skeptics apparently are using one meaning of "capacity" and are failing to notice it has two meanings: 1) root capacity for functioning (a thing's already existing nature, which is there from the beginning of its existence), and 2) active capacity, actual functioning (a right-now demonstration of the root capacity). The meaning of "capacity" relevant to the syllogism — and sufficient for human zygotes to be persons — is 1) root capacity.

Another fact about the nature of personhood can help show why root capacity works, so let's digress to consider it.

Personhood: Developmental or a constant?

Since the human body is a thing that develops and grows, many people assume that therefore, so does personhood. The fact is, however, personhood is not developmental; it's a constant.

If personhood were developmental, then the right not to be killed (commonly called the right to life) would have to be developmental, too. But how can this right be developmental? Think of it this way: A human being cannot be partially killed and partially not killed. To be a person is to have the right not to be killed. This right cannot be put on a scale of degrees; it is an either/or, just as alive or dead is an either/or.

A "developmental" approach to personhood makes no sense. If the so-called "potential person" may be killed at whim, it is simply a non-person. If it is a person, we may not choose to kill it on a whim. A potential, partial, or lesser individual right not to be killed that can be set aside is, in effect, a non-right. A being is a person or not; there is no in-between moral, or even logical, class of beings.

In Roe, however, the Court assumed that there is another category of human offspring: "potential life," which lies somewhere between "non-person" and "person." In the Court's view, with the increasing physical development of human beings comes an increasing moral standing and, therefore, an increasing level of rights, until at some point in our development, we acquire "full rights."

Since human beings do not mature until adulthood, why not permit infanticide? Apparently seeking a time to start applying the brakes, Blackmun wrote, "With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the 'compelling' point is at viability. This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb."22 But what is meaningful? By whose standard? In ordinary language, "viable" means "capable of living or developing in normal or favorable situations." To abortionists, "viable" requires survivability under hostile conditions. Either way, what does viability have to do with what an entity is, or with the right not to be killed? The principle the Court advanced here is that if you need help, you can be killed, but if you can manage, you cannot be touched. Under viability, the more a child needs the womb, the less right she has to stay there.

Moreover, viability is not a stable point. Since Roe, the age at which prematurely born children survive in incubators has been lowered. As Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote, "The Roe framework, then, is clearly on a collision course with itself."23 Given current medical technology, we can talk of viability at both ends of prenatal development. Zygotes in petri dishes and embryos in cold-storage are clearly living outside the mother's womb. Indeed, if artificial wombs are eventually perfected, many children might not ever reside in a woman's body.

.........


Two meanings of "capacity"

Let us return to "the capacity for reason and choice." Abortion choicers often insist that "capacity" refers only to the second meaning given above — to the ability to demonstrate reason and choice right now. If this were its only meaning, then what about people generally recognized as persons, such as people who are profoundly retarded, people in coma, stroke victims, and the senile? They might not be able to reason or choose at a given moment. In fact, under such a definition, we all have grounds to worry if we sleep too soundly.

Most abortion choicers probably oppose equating fetuses with comatose and retarded humans. "[W]e all agree that they [retarded humans] are persons and we cannot justifiably kill them," the Association of Libertarian Feminists took care to say.26

Everyone begins life "mentally incompetent." But if life-long "mentally incompetent" humans are persons, why not humans whose incompetence is temporary? Immaturity is no libertarian test for rights. The Libertarian Party platform states: "Individual rights should not be denied [or] abridged...on the basis of...age."27 It has also opposed "government discrimination directed at any...artificially defined sub-category of human beings."28

True, in one sense, capacity means a power that can be demonstrated right now. In another sense, however, capacity means a power that needs time to "warm up" or be "repaired." Think of a computer program. It might have to undergo 167 steps before it can perform the task it was designed for. Still, we say this program has the capacity to function right from the beginning.

Capacity can refer to a being's natural, underlying power to actualize reason and choice. When a talent is undeveloped, it is still an actual talent. More strongly, even when one's capacity for reason and choice is undeveloped, one still has an actual capacity, an actual power. Human beings begin life with the capacity to actualize reason and choice; this capacity is in our genes. To kill human beings early in life is to destroy their capacity for reason and choice as well as their lives.

However much we change during life, our rational nature, our personhood, is a constant. Such a position is Aristotelian. Consider what Ayn Rand, an admirer of Aristotle, saw fit to quote approvingly when reviewing John Herman Randall's book on him. Once again, it shows what views Rand held when not addressing abortion:

"Objecting to 'the...[view that] "anything may be followed by anything,'" Professor Randall writes: 'To such a view...Aristotle answers, No! Every process involves the operation of determinate powers. There is nothing that can become anything else whatsoever. A thing can become only what it has the specific power to become, only what it already is, in a sense, potentially. And a thing can be understood only as that kind of thing that has that kind of a specific power; while the process can be understood only as the operation, the actualization, the functioning of the powers of its subject or bearer.' "29​

Making judgments and free choices are activities of persons. If only the present capability to do these things counted, then personhood would be, in the words of one abortion choicer, "a state humans grow into, perhaps months or even a few years after birth."30 Most abortion choicers, however, are not willing to admit even the mere possibility that choice on infanticide is a logical consequence of their argument.

No sperm or ovum can grow up and debate abortion; they are not "programmed" to do so. What sets the person aside from the non-person is the root capacity for reason and choice. If this capacity is not in a being's nature, the being cannot develop it. We had this capacity on Day One, because it came with our human nature.

In other words, to be an actual person, human beings need do nothing but be alive. We were all very much alive at conception. One-celled human beings are not "potential persons"; they are persons with potential. When do human beings become persons? The answer is, human beings do not become persons; human beings simply are persons from Day One.31

.........


Who should decide?

Abortion choicers try to get around the intellectual chaos on their side by saying, "Let the woman decide." If one is free to decide whether another is a person, then whoever is strongest will do the deciding, and we all had better be thinking about our own prospects.

Besides, treating personhood as a matter of personal opinion can lead to strange results. Imagine two pregnant women debating prenatal personhood. One says that her fetus was a person at conception. The other says hers will not be a person until birth. Both fetuses were conceived the same day. As the women debate, a drunk driver hits them, killing both fetuses. What wrong has the driver committed? If it is a mother's choice whether her fetus is a person, then to be consistent, we would have to say that the death of one fetus is a homicide but the death of the other is only, say, destruction of property. This is absurd, of course, for the two fetuses were, objectively, the same kind of being when alive.

When unwanted, she is a fetus; if wanted, suddenly she is a baby or child. Ms. magazine, for example, referred to the fetus as a baby at least twenty times in a one and one-half page article.37 A woman who miscarried does not say she lost her fetus. She says, "I lost my child," or "I lost my baby." A libertarian who supports abortion missed a meeting because of what he called "a death in the family." His wife had miscarried at five months.

III. MORE FACTS OF THE SITUATION:
APPLYING LIBERTARIAN PRINCIPLES TO THEM


What about the woman's right to liberty?

To John Hart Ely and Laurence Tribe, "The point of Roe v. Wade was not that the Supreme Court had too little 'scientific' information about when life began or what a fetus was, but rather that the Government...could not override the rights of the pregnant woman." They added, "It was a question of rights, not an issue of biology or a matter of definition that Roe resolved."38

Is prenatal homicide defensible on the level of rights? Only if childhood dependency is a capital offense against innocent parents, or if parents have an unalienable right to abandon their children and let them die.

Before considering why the child has the right to be in her mother's womb, let us examine what one abortion choicer39 asserts is "the best philosophical defense of the pro-choice position." It is philosophy professor Judith Jarvis Thomson's famous article, "A Defense of Abortion," written in 1971, two years before Roe.40 The kind of argument Thomson made is invoked by many abortion choicers, including libertarians.41

Calling an unwanted fetus an "unborn person" (for argument's sake only), Thomson attempts to prove the fetus an aggressor and her mother a victim. In the most famous part of her article, Thomson analogizes unwanted pregnancy to the case of a violinist with a life-endangering kidney problem. To save his life, his friends hook him up to a sleeping stranger, who clearly had not volunteered to be used as a dialysis machine. It is the stranger's right to decline to be a good Samaritan. If the stranger unplugs the violinist, who then dies, Thomson argues, it is not the stranger's fault. Similarly, Thomson argues, so do pregnant women have a right to unplug their children.

Her argument fails for various reasons, the most dramatic being that it is not a defense of abortion as it actually happens.42 As Thomson herself recognizes, there is no right to secure the violinist's death, to slit his throat. The aborted child is not merely "unhooked" and allowed to die.

..........


Another is agreement, which raises such questions as: "Who agreed and who did not, and to what?" Even if the father and the mother agreed to conceive a child and succeeded in doing so, a third party is affected: the child. Where is the child's agreement? In agreements between parents regarding children, the child should be a third party beneficiary, not a victim. An agreement has no standing against someone affected by the results of the agreement but who did not consent to it. The parties to an agreement cannot waive the non-aggression right of non-consenting people. Newly conceived children are not parties to any agreement. They certainly could not have been prior to conception.

Thomson failed to raise, let alone answer, critical questions. For example, what if it were the stranger's fault that the violinist needs life support? Actually, Thomson's violinist analogy serves as a good example of the concept of chutzpah. One illustration of this Yiddish term is a mugger who shouts, "Help! Help!" as he beats up his victim.45 Contrary to Thomson, the zygote is not an attacker.

Defending the child's rights

When a child is conceived, the child is helpless. This can put the needs of parent and child in serious conflict. But it does not put their rights to be free from aggression in conflict. But what about the mother's needs in such difficult circumstances as, for example, when her life is in danger? This issue is a "life-boat" problem. In such situations, everyone's life is at risk, but none of them is at fault. Because nobody has a right to attack the innocent, nobody caught in a dire circumstance has a right to attack any of the others. The mother's right to self-preservation does not turn her child into a mere "thing" that she may destroy at will. The doctor's goal should be to save both patients, mother and child, but they can only do the possible. The goal of premature deliveries is to help both. The goal of an abortion, however, is a dead fetus.

In any event, hard cases should not obscure fundamental issues. If abortion per se were not aggression, then hard cases would not raise the issue of rights. How we deal with others and their rights when we are in grave difficulties is a true test of whether we hold a one- or a two-tiered view of humanity.

What abortion choicers are saying is that in any pregnancy, the woman's liberty is paramount. However, liberty is not paramount. Life and liberty are equal rights; both are merely forms of the same basic right: the right to be free from aggression.

Because most abortion choicers recoil at a "right" to a dead fetus, they prefer to use euphemisms for abortion, such as "pro-choice," "pregnancy termination," and "reproductive rights." Interestingly, some libertarian abortion choicers insist they favor only an "eviction" abortion: the child is removed intact and alive; if she does not survive, that is too bad. Some try to deal with conflicting needs by noting the common understanding of the non-aggression principle: Although we may not aggress against one another, we have no positive obligation under rights to help one another.

The eviction argument, however, overlooks at least two important distinctions: 1) killing versus letting die, and 2) who is causally responsible?

Killing versus letting die

Letting die at least does not shut off the possibility of survival, however theoretical and remote this possibility might be. For example, in hysterotomy abortions (which are similar to Caesarian deliveries), children have emerged alive.

In the real world, however, the evictionist's position gives only lip service to the moral distinction between intentional killing and letting die, and those who give such service are playing let's pretend with somebody else's life. Most abortions are intentionally destructive, not simple "letting die" procedures. Abortions do not merely place children in grave danger of death. In fact, the entire point of abortion is intentional destruction of the fetus.

In theory, we could enact a law that limits abortion to intact removal. On the surface, such a law would seem to reflect the non-aggression principle. When the cord is cut at birth, the parents can passively abandon their child by walking away. Eviction, however, is not passive; it is an active intervention against the child. Both attack and negligence can be forms of aggression.

Nonetheless, the heart of the eviction argument must still be addressed. What if the mother could leave right after conception as easily as the father? With in vitro fertilization, everyone can walk off without anyone attacking the child. If they do walk off, they put the child, of course, in harm's way. Have parents a right to leave children unattended in hazardous situations? If their children die, is that simply regrettable, like famine victims dying because no one gave them assistance? For parents, as regards obligations, is there no difference between their own children and the children of strangers?

To abandon one's child in the petri dish is similar to putting her on board one's airplane and then jumping out, leaving her on the plane to crash, and doing all this without the child's consent. Perhaps a stranger with a suitable womb will happen by who is willing and able to adopt her. However, what if this does not happen?

Interestingly, even most abortion choicers consider gross neglect and outright abandonment to be criminal behavior. When children have medical emergencies in the middle of the night, most parents do not go back to sleep saying, "So what if my child might die? I have the right to control my own body, don't I?"

It is true that the means a woman must use to mother her child before birth are quite different from the means she uses after birth. But what difference does it make, in principle, whether her child is in the crib or in her womb? When she nurses her infant or carries her in her arms, she is using the same body she used to carry that same child to term.

As even most abortion choicers know, parent and good Samaritan are not analogous roles. Parents owe their immature children support and protection from harm. Why are they obligated? Did we have the right before birth to be in our mother's womb?

Causation: Who is mugging whom?

A child's creation and presence in the womb are caused by biological forces independent of and beyond the control of the child; they are brought into play by the acts of the parents. The cause-and-effect relationship between heterosexual intercourse and pregnancy is well-known. The child did not cause the situation. The parents are the causative agents of both the pregnancy and their child's dependence.

Who among us could have chosen not to begin life, or not to inhabit our mother's body when conceived? Inhabiting the mother's body is a direct byproduct of the parents' volitional act, not the child's. What the prenatal child does, she does by necessity. This necessity is also a direct byproduct of the parents' volitional act.

No one survives without certain necessities of life and very immature children cannot obtain them without outside help. Childhood dependency is a fact of nature, like the liquidity of water. Abortion choicers know that the stork does not drop children on our heads. Yet, many insist, parents are not responsible for "accidental" pregnancies. This assertion raises two meanings of "responsible for": 1) being the source or cause of a consequence, and 2) being accountable to others for the consequence, owing them.

One cause of the child's existence, the union of a sperm and ovum, is natural. But it is dependent upon an antecedent cause, the human action that enables the two cells to come together. Nature does not do its part without human action. What parents cause to be is not just a child but a child with needs; it is a package deal. A child would not be in need of sustenance and in need of help if she did not exist.

The stork did not do it. The fact of parental agency refutes any assertion that the child is a trespasser, a parasite, or an aggressor of any sort.

Since a prenatal child is where she is because of her parents' actions, she can be said to be acting as her parents' agent — which places her alleged "guilt" squarely on her parents' heads. We might even say that the mother aggressed against herself, except that, by definition, harming others can be aggression; harming onself is not.

To conceive and then abort one's child — even by mere eviction — is to turn conception into a deadly trap for the child. It is to set her up in a vulnerable position that is virtually certain to lead to her death. Conception followed by eviction from the womb could be compared to capturing someone, placing her on one's airplane, and then shoving her out in mid-flight without a parachute. The child in the womb is like a captive; she is in the situation involuntarily, and she cannot fend for herself. A captive is not trespassing on the captor's property, by definition. (Evicting or abandoning one's child cannot be regarded as releasing her from captivity, because this does not terminate childhood inability.)

When abortion choicers liken the parent to the good Samaritan, they talk as if feeding one's own children is charity. It is a kindness to give charity, because nobody has an obligation under unalienable rights to do so. Giving to charity is a matter of choice, by definition. A good Samaritan is not a causative agent of another's need for support; good Samaritans are chance bystanders. In procreation, parents are not chance bystanders; they are active, cooperative participants, even when children are conceived in vitro. Conception and pregnancy is a common and foreseeable risk of even careful sex.

Under libertarian principles, parents have the same negative obligation towards their children that they have to strangers: non-aggression. The question is whether it follows that even given that parents are responsible for (caused) their child's existence, are the parents also responsible (accountable) for her support? Some abortion choicers claim that when parents let their child starve to death, they have not violated any positive right of the child and committed aggression. They are mistaken.

The non-endangerment principle

Basically, non-aggression is a negative obligation, like do not commit robbery. If we commit robbery, we owe the victim restitution and compensation. But we can also incur positive obligations even if we have not done harm. For example, a contract is not an initiation of force, yet by merely signing the contract, each party to it now owes each other performance. There is no aggression — until and unless a participant fails to perform.

Parental obligation does not arise out of contract, tort, the mere fact of conception, or out of the biological relationship of parent to child. It arises because the parents voluntarily (even if they did not intend it) gave themselves a life-or-death control over their child. To withhold their support is to endanger the child. Parents owe support because they have no right to use their control to cause danger and then let the harm happen.

The two central aspects to conception that are relevant to rights are: 1) It is voluntary on the parents' part, and not on the child's; the situation is imposed on the child. 2) The parents' life-or-death control over the child is total; it is they who have established and control the entire situation. If the child dies due to their withholding or withdrawal of life support, they have not merely let her die; they have killed her.

There is a distinction between risky behavior and threats of harm. Life is a series of risks, and things do happen. We could compare parental obligation to lighting a barbecue in our backyard. Normally, lighting the fire presents only risks inherent in any controlled fire. But if the fire begins to spread to our neighbor's property, it now presents a threat of harm, and we caused the danger. If their property catches fire, we caused the harm as well as danger; we have initiated force. Since we may not initiate force, we may not threaten others with harm and then let the harm befall them.

Therefore, although the non-endangerment principle is essentially negative, it contains a positive obligation proviso: if we endanger innocent people without their consent, we must protect them from the harm because of our obligation not to aggress.

The child's right to be in the mother's womb

Some abortion choicers say that life is a gift to the child by the parents, a gift that does not bind the parents. A "gift," however, implies the option to refuse to take it, and beginning life is not an option for the child. Her life is thrust upon her, as is her need for life support and her inability to fend for herself. Conception does not make a child worse off (or better off) than before, because the child does not pre-exist conception. But she is created vulnerable to harm.

The parent-child relationship is unique as a situation; it is the only relationship that begins when one side causes the other side to exist. But parental obligation is not unique as an obligation — the obligation to act justly towards others is a universal, rather than a special, obligation.

Parental obligation is simply a concrete example of the obligation to not aggress. By taking care of their child in the womb, the parents prevent an aggression that would happen if they were, instead, to tear her away from the life support she gets there.

The nature of childhood and growing maturity indicate a built-in boundary: when the child can fend for herself, the parents have fulfilled their obligation to her. Thereafter, things are in her hands.

Once again, however, in the case of procreation, the parents' power over children begins as being total. Therefore, if through their negligence or intent harm results to the child (because of the child's loss or lack of sustenance), then as a matter of practical fact, the parents have caused the harm. Thus, parental obligation does not stem from harm done; it stems from our obligation to avoid causing the innocent to be harmed.

Furthermore, threats of harm can be considered, in themselves, as forms of aggression. The kind and degree of prevention that is owed, however, depends upon the kind and degree of threat that is imposed. When we drive a car, at the minimum, we must stay alert and drive carefully. When people drive drunk, we have no obligation to wait until they hit someone before we take them off the road. Even before things happen, the obligation to drive responsibility is there. In this case, the essentially negative obligation that drivers have requires them to take positive preventative steps.

Conception is not, in itself, endangerment or a threat of harm; it is a normal, natural fact of life. Pregnancy automatically protects the child against the possible dangers of an unsupportive environment. Yet by conceiving a child, parents give themselves a life-or-death power over her, and they get this control without her consent. Children are "captives" of their parents.

If parents willfully use their powers as "captor" to put their child in harm's way (not feeding her, for example), they caused the danger without her consent. If the child is harmed (starves to death), they also willfully caused the harm without her consent. Even simple eviction from the womb initiates force and violates the child's rights (in most abortions, however, the child is first dismembered, or poisoned, then evicted).

Many men want abortion legal because it enables them to escape their responsibilities to help support their children. Thanks to our human nature, all of us are quick to hold others accountable for their actions, while none of us wants to be held accountable for our own. But "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" does not mean that we may escape our obligations by killing our creditors.

Rather than abortion protecting parents from slavery, it imposes slavery upon children. It forces children to be more than good Samaritans; it requires them to die to serve another's purpose. The right to control one's own body, however, prohibits the choice to kill or abandon one's child. For the prenatal child, the mother's womb is home; this is where she needs to be — and this is where she has the right to be.​

http://www.l4l.org/library/abor-rts.html
 
You're assuming that the vast majority of police and military would be against you. Indeed the opposite it true. Were such a conflict to befall us, the coastal progressives would not prevail. The RINOS would not prevail. The rank and file of the military would not support what you fear.

The rank and file military has demonstrated decades of allegiance to their order givers. Nor will they sacrifice their pay check and health care. The soldiers NEVER follow the Constitution. They follow the banker controlled bureaucrats in D.C., and the controlled media narrative.
They will be against us until it is way too late in the game.
 
Ummm, yeah.

10,000 guys in sandals with IEDs and AK-47s have had us hemmed up in the ME for over 15 years now.

None of that $#@! works without fuel.

Hemming up is part of the globalists' strategy. Like Korea & Vietnam. They have plenty of fuel.
 
No, a fetus that has not been born is not entitled to your interpretation of life, liberty and property. As a matter of fact, a fetus is the property of that woman, not yours. Again, it's none of your damn business and to deny the option places you right along side fascists and dictators. I have no doubt your true intentions are religious in nature. You deny the woman her choice while hypocritically defending the illegal "limited" intervention of another sovereign nation that is killing scores of children. Regime change is the primary goal and your "Hillary" defense is quite simply...very neoliberal of you. Fake news memes are in fact being created by large P&R firms hired by alt right supporters (Trumpsters) in order to "debunk" any negative reporting of the Trump administration. Trump used "fake news" over and over again in his campaign. How typical a neoliberal would try to blame that on MSM themselves....lol...much like blaming the Iranian ISIS attacks on the victims.

...your posts on this thread are some of the best thinking i've seen on any board...republicans and democrats are waaaaaaaay more alike than different as to the most important issues: massive, long-standing monetary fraud, foreign interventionism, etc..

...too bad the miserable republican and democrat peckerheads couldn't eliminate/cripple themselves in this 'civil war' and leave the decent, intelligent people behind...
 
 
The concept of a "cold civil war" is an interesting one and something I've been mulling over for the past year or so. I don't think it'll turn hot unless the massive number of consumerist distractions is limited for some reason or we reach some Malthusian limit on resources. A post-industrial society waging a civil war is something I have to see to believe.
 
The concept of a "cold civil war" is an interesting one and something I've been mulling over for the past year or so. I don't think it'll turn hot unless the massive number of consumerist distractions is limited for some reason or we reach some Malthusian limit on resources. A post-industrial society waging a civil war is something I have to see to believe.

Bond market blows up. Country is unable to borrow going forward and in essence, finance it's vast responsibilities. Immediate 30 to 35% cuts across the board are needed, but the politicians return to their favorite form of abuse: taxation. Government is forced to tax in an even more heavy-handed fashion, despite the choking effects of hidden inflation in particular sectors. I speculate the country would be burning in a few months.
 
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Bond market blows up. Country is unable to borrow going forward and in essence, finance it's vast responsibilities going forward. Immediate 30 to 35% cuts across the board are needed, but the politicians return to their favorite form of abuse: taxation. Government is forced to tax in an even more heavy-handed fashion, despite the choking effects of hidden inflation in particular sectors. I speculate the country would be burning in a few months.
There might be rioting in that case, but a civil war is something else. The most violent group in the Trump era, by far, is Antifa. They're perfectly happy to "bash the fash" and hit people with bike locks and ancom flags when they live in cities like Berkeley (which is right near my hometown), where the police rarely hold them accountable for their actions and the mayor is on their side. That doesn't make them a paramilitary group. To say that they're unprepared for a civil war is a massive understatement. They're LARPers, academics who like the mystique of playing revolutionary on the weekends and the kudos they get from their fellow collective members, but they aren't warriors. I predict more leftist violence in the future, but this thing has a ceiling unless there's an incoming depression of apocalyptic proportions.
 
Bond market blows up. Country is unable to borrow going forward and in essence, finance it's vast responsibilities going forward. Immediate 30 to 35% cuts across the board are needed, but the politicians return to their favorite form of abuse: taxation. Government is forced to tax in an even more heavy-handed fashion, despite the choking effects of hidden inflation in particular sectors. I speculate the country would be burning in a few months.

Either that, or the people stop using the FRN and find other media of trade. Then the FRN becomes completely worthless overnight, at which point there is no reason for the things not to be printed until they outnumber the leaves on the trees. And the debt is paid off, and the people do not suffer for it because they aren't like Zimbabweans and they don't feel compelled to sink with the currency.

Does that lead to civil war? Only if the Federal Reserve remains in control of the military, which it currently sends about the world in defense of the Petrodollar.
 
There might be rioting in that case, but a civil war is something else. The most violent group in the Trump era, by far, is Antifa. They're perfectly happy to "bash the fash" and hit people with bike locks and ancom flags when they live in cities like Berkeley (which is right near my hometown), where the police rarely hold them accountable for their actions and the mayor is on their side. That doesn't make them a paramilitary group. To say that they're unprepared for a civil war is a massive understatement. They're LARPers, academics who like the mystique of playing revolutionary on the weekends and the kudos they get from their fellow collective members, but they aren't warriors. I predict more leftist violence in the future, but this thing has a ceiling unless there's an incoming depression of apocalyptic proportions.

They just physically attacked a reporter from a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch in Australia.

 
They just physically attacked a reporter from a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch in Australia.


Yeah, they're a bunch of violent degenerate scum. But they're not a paramilitary. It might devolve into 1970s "Days of Rage" style terrorism (and arguably, already is), but they haven't the resources, the competence or the temperament to wage a revolutoonary campaign.
 
Yeah, they're a bunch of violent degenerate scum. But they're not a paramilitary. It might devolve into 1970s "Days of Rage" style terrorism (and arguably, already is), but they haven't the resources, the competence or the temperament to wage a revolutoonary campaign.

Neither did the terrorist organizations in the ME, but their 'benefactors' showered them with training and resources.
 
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