Are Austrian Economists delusional?

Seraphim

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I need reinforcements. My friend just called Austrian economists delusional (actually he stated DELUSIONOMICS). I want to compile sources and rational arguments of OTHERS to throw in his face.

I need to rally some troups here ladies and gents, please help me?

A combination of personal experience, sourced links, real practical evidence...anything based on rational thought and logic. Please and thank you. The best replies will be sent to him to read. He thinks giving the Federal Reserve more power is a good idea and that debt issued currency does not result in perpetual and unpayable debt (on a macro scale). DELUSIONOMICS. LOL! Fuckin' idiot.

Help please :)
 
I'll be back.

But to start a short history of money from Rome to Zimbabwe would be in order.
 
Here is an example of what I just asked him:

Who funds the wars? Who profits from them? Where do they get their money? Who funds and owns the mass media corporations/State media that sell the wars (and other ideas) to the public. Sell, convince, persuade, coerce...use any word you will. It's a simple matter of FOLLOW THE MONEY.

So in addition to my above questions: Why do you believe we need centralized economic planning? Does this strike you as anti-liberty, or as positive? Or is liberty a negative thing? Do you think economics and liberty are mutually exclusive? Or do you believe liberty in the practical world must fundamentally be founded in economics (not just on a personal level, but a provincial level, municipal level, national level)?


Once he answers it will be easier to know what type of person he really is. I.e closet autharitarian who believes in freedom for him and few others, just a moron, a good hearted person who is just misguided etc etc.
 
Have him listen to some of the Mises U stuff, or have him watch my video on the austrian business cycle theory.

There's a link to it in the newest article at LibertyIsNow.com actually that new article should be an enlightening read for him.
 
Here's a few things that should knock him back on his ass and put the burdon of proof on him to prove his point of view. I've used this stuff with a few liberals and they always attack my sources. You be the judge of my sources and let me know what you think. Can't wait to hear what happens when you send him this stuff!

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/paul_krugman_gives_up_1.html

Peer reviewed articles from above link:
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/fa...rge+changes+in+fiscal+policy_October_2009.pdf
http://www.volkerwieland.com/docs/CCTW Mar 2.pdf
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/shleifer/files/politics_market_socialism.pdf

Reinhardt and Rogoff's papers in above link:
http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~cromer/RomerDraft307.pdf
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~dromer/papers/RomerandRomerAERJune2010.pdf
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/rogoff/files/Growth_in_Time_Debt.pdf

Comment on Krugman's blog that cites the Alesina article that's linked above:
http://community.nytimes.com/commen.../more-on-reinhart-rogoff/?permid=11#comment11
Now, in classical Keynesian theory, it makes little difference whether the deficit is created by cutting tax rates or increasing spending. Modern economic theory, however, has a very different view. As Alesina et al. show, a deficit created by cutting taxes actually does stimulate an economy. A deficit created by raising spending actually does not.

This one came out today, should be fun. ;)

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/11/news/economy/economic_collapse_GDP_unemployment.fortune/index.htm

Despite the many differences between Japan and the US, there is one similarity that continues to matter most in the risk management model my colleagues and I use at Hedgeye, our research firm -- debt as a percentage of GDP. Now that the US can't cut interest rates any lower, the only option left on the table is what the Fed just announced it would start doing -- buying Treasury debt. And that could lead the country to the brink of collapse: According to economists Carmen Reinhart & Ken Rogoff, whose views we share, crossing the 90% debt/GDP threshold is the equivalent of crossing the proverbial Rubicon of economic growth. It's a point from which it's almost impossible to return.

This should probably be a good start to educate him. :D
 
I need reinforcements. My friend just called Austrian economists delusional (actually he stated DELUSIONOMICS). I want to compile sources and rational arguments of OTHERS to throw in his face.

I need to rally some troups here ladies and gents, please help me?

A combination of personal experience, sourced links, real practical evidence...anything based on rational thought and logic. Please and thank you. The best replies will be sent to him to read. He thinks giving the Federal Reserve more power is a good idea and that debt issued currency does not result in perpetual and unpayable debt (on a macro scale). DELUSIONOMICS. LOL! Fuckin' idiot.

Help please :)

So has he provided any arguments? Going off your post he has not. Its not really possible to respond properly if all he is saying is "Austrian economics is delusional/dumb".

If you just throw him material he will just say the same to it. Don't let yourself be put on the defensive if all he is giving you is rhetoric and not real arguments. Ask him to substantiate his rhetoric.
 
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So has he provided any arguments? Its not really possible to respond properly if all he is saying is "Austrian economics is delusional/dumb".

If you just throw him material he will just say the same to it. Don't let yourself be put on the defensive if all he is giving you is rhetoric and not real arguments. Ask him to substantiate his rhetoric.

+100

Your friend is being a bit of a dick. Ask him to back up his "claims".
 
So has he provided any arguments? Its not really possible to respond properly if all he is saying is "Austrian economics is delusional/dumb".

If you just throw him material he will just say the same to it. Don't let yourself be put on the defensive if all he is giving you is rhetoric and not real arguments. Ask him to substantiate his rhetoric.

You are absolutely correct! That's why I just linked to several peer reviewed studies on the subject matter. He can just send them his friend's way and shift the burden of proof to his friend. More than likely his friend won't be able to come up with anything, so guess who wins! :D
 
So has he provided any arguments? Going off your post he has not. Its not really possible to respond properly if all he is saying is "Austrian economics is delusional/dumb".

If you just throw him material he will just say the same to it. Don't let yourself be put on the defensive if all he is giving you is rhetoric and not real arguments. Ask him to substantiate his rhetoric.

This. You need to get him to tell you the basis of his assertion and then question him on it. Don't focus so much on trying to "prove him wrong" and focus on understanding why he thinks the way he does. Asking the right questions is far more effective than trying to have all the right answers. :)
 
This. You need to get him to tell you the basis of his assertion and then question him on it. Don't focus so much on trying to "prove him wrong" and focus on understanding why he thinks the way he does. Asking the right questions is far more effective than trying to have all the right answers. :)

Precisely what I did just before posting this. My post above outlines a bit of what I said. Thanks :)
 
This. You need to get him to tell you the basis of his assertion and then question him on it. Don't focus so much on trying to "prove him wrong" and focus on understanding why he thinks the way he does. Asking the right questions is far more effective than trying to have all the right answers. :)

That is the best way to win a debate, I always respond with questions, and if they don't come to the conclusion themselves you've usally probably weakened their argument for a quick KO

For example, they say

"you need a central bank for price stability"

my response

"why do you want price stability?" or "what is price stability?"
 
Don't even respond to his ad-hominem attacks. Tell him if he has a real argument to make you'll be glad to hear it.
 
That is the best way to win a debate, I always respond with questions, and if they don't come to the conclusion themselves you've usally probably weakened their argument for a quick KO

For example, they say

"you need a central bank for price stability"

my response

"why do you want price stability?" or "what is price stability?"

Yup I just started doing that with him. I'm going to make him answer questions now. :) lol
 
Another Take on Austrian Economic Thought

Why AMI considers the Austrian School as monetarily illiterate and not having done their homework:

A REFUTATION OF MENGER'S THEORY OF THE ORIGIN OF MONEY -

To view the actual 20 page paper text and its graphic power point presentation, click here:

http://www.monetary.org/mengerrefutation.html

Here below is a two page summary plus communication with the Austrian School

A challenge to the Austrian School of Economics and the Ludwig Von Mises Institute. Of much more general importance than it sounds, obeisance is universally paid to Menger's 19th century re-incarnation of John Law's theory of money, by present day Austrian economists. Menger's origin theory is also at the base (often explicitly) of much so-called libertarian thinking and writing today. For example Robert Nozick uses it to launch his book Anarchy, State , And Utopia, (p.18) one of the Libertarian's "bibles".

This paper most likely deals a "death blow" to this core thesis of the Austrian School, as formulated by Carl Menger, the school's founder. In effect the Austrian's are left without a viable theory of money. It would be difficult to imagine that one could be provided by Von Mises confused and self contradictory book THE THEORY OF MONEY AND CREDIT.The understandable reluctance of "Austrian gatekeepers" to address this issue are documented below.

SYNOPSIS:
The paper challenges Menger on three grounds:

METHODOLOGICAL GROUNDS:
Though it is generally assumed that Menger's theory is at least in part derived from historical evidence, the paper demonstrates that its derivation is entirely theoretical, by showing that all the historically based evidence cited by Menger, is 180 degrees counter to his theory. The paper points out the inappropriateness of attempting to divine an historical event or process with only deductive logic.

RATIONAL GROUNDS:
The paper points out that even within the framework of Menger's scheme, there are two fatal flaws. First the circularity of his reasoning in determining his causes of liquidity, which arises from his use of the "development of the market and of speculation in a commodity" as a cause of liquidity, when in fact it is a definition of liquidity and even Menger uses it as such. The paper explains the crucial difference. This is not quite an example of what has been called "Weiser's Circle". Second, the paper points out that within Menger's scheme, it is not liquidity, but volatility (or lack of it) which is much more important.

FACTUAL GROUNDS:
The paper shows that some of Menger's closely held general views of the stability of gold and silver and their universal use as money, are simply false. In addition the existence of the millennia long dichotomy in the gold-silver ratio between east and west, which Menger seems to be unaware of, appears sufficient to doom his theory.The paper presents some of the factual evidence gathered by William Ridgeway, in the ORIGIN OF METALLIC WEIGHTS AND STANDARDS; by A.H. Quiggin in A SURVEY OF PRIMITIVE MONEY; by Paul Einzig in PRIMITIVE MONEY; and by Bernard Laum in HEILEGES GELD; all as an indication that an institutional origin of money, whether religious or social, is much more likely to have occurred than Menger's assumed market origin. (25 pages, footnoted, charts, a real barn-burner. Suggested donation $20 postpaid; students $10.)

CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE AUSTRIAN SCHOOL:
Attempts to bring this paper to the attention of members of the Austrian School, through their publication, were at first blocked and then ignored, as seen in the following copy of their reply and critique of the paper; and the answer to their critique, to which they have not responded. "Make the most of it" indeed! Lets see if Internet culture can end such academic stonewalling, and flush the Austrians from their ivory towers down at good ole Auburn University.

Read on


http://www.monetary.org/refute.htm
 
Attempts to bring this paper to the attention of members of the Austrian School, through their publication, were at first blocked and then ignored, as seen in the following copy of their reply and critique of the paper; and the answer to their critique, to which they have not responded. "Make the most of it" indeed! Lets see if Internet culture can end such academic stonewalling, and flush the Austrians from their ivory towers down at good ole Auburn University.

This is not even good propaganda. Oh yeah, those austrian leaving the good lives, in the mainstream media and mainstream economic theory... :rolleyes:

Also, this was answered in the mises.org forum and the author should be ashamed for just completely distorting the position of austrian economics to then being able to criticize the distorted position he claims as austrian economics: http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/13534.aspx
 
This is not even good propaganda. Oh yeah, those austrian leaving the good lives, in the mainstream media and mainstream economic theory... :rolleyes:

Also, this was answered in the mises.org forum and the author should be ashamed for just completely distorting the position of austrian economics to then being able to criticize the distorted position he claims as austrian economics: http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/13534.aspx

Thanks for the link to the counterargument, Hugo. I hadn't seen that
 
Here is an example of what I just asked him:

Who funds the wars?

Bankers & investors

Who profits from them?

the people who invested in it.

Where do they get their money?

either by loan or by creation, or by earning it.

Who funds and owns the mass media corporations/State media that sell the wars (and other ideas) to the public.

Jews


Sell, convince, persuade, coerce...use any word you will. It's a simple matter of FOLLOW THE MONEY.

How can you be a capitalist and think money is bad?


So in addition to my above questions: Why do you believe we need centralized economic planning?

Does lack of central planning always equate to Austrian economics?

Does this strike you as anti-liberty, or as positive?

Doesn't matter, I'm not pro-liberty on every issue.

Or is liberty a negative thing?

Freedom is sometimes a bad thing, liberty might be defined differently.

Do you think economics and liberty are mutually exclusive?

for the most part, no.

Or do you believe liberty in the practical world must fundamentally be founded in economics (not just on a personal level, but a provincial level, municipal level, national level)?

Sounds like yes. Elaborate?


Once he answers it will be easier to know what type of person he really is. I.e closet autharitarian who believes in freedom for him and few others, just a moron, a good hearted person who is just misguided etc etc.

what kind of person am I?
 
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