Are atheism and natural rights compatible?

[TER]

What you fail to realize is that your mind has given you every means to survive and enjoy life as you know it. It is your reality.

What tangible evidence do you have that there even is a creator, was a creator, and that if there is/was what evidence do you have that you know ANYTHING about him/her/it? Absolutely none.

Sorry but I choose not to reject and defame my own existence.

The first thing you need to come to terms with is the fact that you have made your 3 pound brain your god. Until then, you will always be limited in the search for truth.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

I find it ironic that some feel natural rights are derived from their deity who condoned slavery which in itself is contrary to natural rights.

It isn't what we do that makes us free but doing is what puts us into bondage. In other words, if one is a disadvantaged whore being pimped, one isn't going to solve problems by pimping. No, one solves problems by first accepting themselves for what they are -- which in this case is a wretched whore.
What is this wretched whore? She has no power in property or money, so she is a trespasser. She is weaker than the tyrant who pimps her. She obviously has little family to depend while she is either uneducated with little will to beat an addiction or both. Often times, her situation is so desperate that she seeks out a Lord with him not being just an ideal man but any man. Unfortunately, in most cases, that any man ends up pimping her.

 

[Kraig]

[Emphasis mine]

There are two tangible evidences for a Creator: creation and the Bible. But, of course, you would reject those evidences because you're an "atheist." That doesn't mean the evidence are invalid just because you don't believe them. After all, truth is not based on personal assent.

Wrong. This tangible evidence that you call creation is really the physical universe that we leave in. The physical universe gives evidence that there is in fact a physical world where we live and nothing more. It does not give evidence of a creator, it simply exists.

You cannot show evidence that the physical world was created, only that it exists. Problem is we aren't arguing about if it exists, we are arguing about if it was created.

You cannot show evidence that the Bible is anything more than a man made book printed off on man made printing machines filled with man made ideas.

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

Did or did not Thomas Jefferson write "natures GOD' in the Declaration of Independence? Yes or No. Natural law is based on NATURES GOD...not natures CHEMISTRy or natures DOG, or natures SCIENCE...natures GOD! GOD GOD GOD! TOnes (how hard does this have to be???)

 

[Kraig]

The first thing you need to come to terms with is the fact that you have made your 3 pound brain your god. Until then, you will always be limited in the search for truth.

I would die without it so I have no problem with that. I cannot observe, understand, or benefit from any form or truth or knowledge without it so once again I have no problem with that. I also have no real concept of god in my life, but if that is what you must call it then fine. My mind is the highest power in my life.

What truth benefits you without your 3 pound brain?

 

[Theocrat]

Ah, the Joys of Relativism...

Rights are as real as governments...

In other words, they're imaginary constructs designed to instill order into an otherwise orderless society, for the betterment of the people within it.

Before governments, what rights did people have? It was basically tribe vs tribe.

And if God is the supplier of these rights, why are some people born into America with many rights, while others are born in places where they HAVE NO RIGHTS?

Rights are a mental construct of humans. Rights vary between cultures. We still can't decide conclusively over certain things like animal and plant rights. There is no absolute doctrine of "rights", they're whatever the culture says they are.

I hope you understand that there is a significant difference between rights which are given to men by God and governments which seek to take those rights away from people.

If rights are mental constructs of our brains, then I guess whoever is in power can tell us what our rights are going to be based on the mental constructs of his brain. And if you believe that, then I wonder why you have anything to complain against our government, since it all operates on mental constructs which humans can't help but to believe.

Are you absolutely sure that there is no absolute doctrine of rights? That sounds like you're making an absolutist statement, to me.

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

Ya'll (little atheists) are not helping the cause of LIBERTY nor of the intent of the FOUNDERS or our CONSTITUTIOn which was the result of the writing of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. You are assisting socialism to take hold. Don't you realize they have worked for years to get YOU, yes YOU to look to the STATE as GOD? Are you going to let them WIN??? You are doing exactly what they want you to do. RESIST NOW! TONeS

 

[Kraig]

Did or did not Thomas Jefferson write "natures GOD' in the Declaration of Independence? Yes or No. Natural law is based on NATURES GOD...not natures CHEMISTRy or natures DOG, or natures SCIENCE...natures GOD! GOD GOD GOD! TOnes (how hard does this have to be???)

Yes but Mr. Jefferson was a man so I am going to have to assume all of his ideas and writings were simply man made.

 

[Xenophage]

-The purpose of morality is to allow a society to function.
-There are many different sets of moral beliefs.
-Some sets of moral beliefs are better than others.
-The value of a set of moral beliefs can be judged according to how well it serves its purpose.
-The best set of moral beliefs will lead to the best functioning society.

Based on the above principles, we can objectively observe the value of our moral beliefs, and compare them to other cultures, as well as the beliefs of the past. If our moral beliefs today are giving us a better society than we had a thousand years ago, then we can say we have observed an improvement in our morals. That's how we can empirically observe morality.

We can also use an inductive approach to the issue. The purpose of morality is to allow a society to function. If we are to look at two societies with two different moral codes, we can make logical guesses about which society will be more prosperous. For example, if society A does not allow women to speak in public, and society B grants full equal rights to women, we can logically deduce that society B will have more female professionals who contribute to the society's prosperity than society A, and will therefore be more prosperous.

Using a combination of inductive reasoning and empirical observation, we are able to continually progress our understanding of morality towards objective moral truth.

That's how atheists are able to understand natural rights. The progress that our culture has already made in this direction has steered us towards a belief that when natural rights are enforced, societies prosper. When they are ignored, societies fail.

No God required.

I'd like to also add that religion in general has acted throughout history as a damper on our moral progress, by means of its prohibition on moral inquiry.

+1

 

[Firegirl]

I'm no master of words but where do you think rights came from? There are no rights in the natural world, no rights between species, the only rights in the natural world are kill or be killed, survive or die.

It is man's mind that came up with the idea that there should be rights of fairness and non-violence among men, yet many here would deny the very thing that gave them these rights. There is no tangible evidence that these rights came from a creator. There is no tangible evidence that these rights exist outside the minds of men.

Rights are as real as governments...

In other words, they're imaginary constructs designed to instill order into an otherwise orderless society, for the betterment of the people within it.

Before governments, what rights did people have? It was basically tribe vs tribe.

And if God is the supplier of these rights, why are some people born into America with many rights, while others are born in places where they HAVE NO RIGHTS?

Rights are a mental construct of humans. Rights vary between cultures. We still can't decide conclusively over certain things like animal and plant rights. There is no absolute doctrine of "rights", they're whatever the culture says they are.

Very, very good points.

Has anyone really pondered these? Why on Earth, if God did provide us rights, would he then deny other countries the same rights? Why are women opressed, stoned to death, or beaten in public still? Why didn't God originally provide full rights to African Americans?

 

[Xenophage]

Fossils are proof God doesn't exist.

 

[Joey Wahoo]

There are no rights in the natural world, no rights between species, the only rights in the natural world are kill or be killed, survive or die.

.

Now you are beginning to approach the truth. In what you call the natural world, there are no rights. In human society we know there are. There is therefore something that separates human society from what you call the natural world, and one bit of evidence for that (perhaps what you might call "tangible evidence") is the existence of natural rights. The source of those cannot be human themselves, unless you choose to contend that they are not "rights" at all. The source must, therefore, be God. You cannot rationally maintain the existence of natural law and deny the existence of a natural lawgiver.

You are getting close.

 

[TER]

And if God is the supplier of these rights, why are some people born into America with many rights, while others are born in places where they HAVE NO RIGHTS?

Because this is fallen world. Or did you think this world is perfect? And because it isn't, you blame God and not yourself, though you lie and live in sins. I take responsibility for the evils in the world and I pray for forgiveness. When you make your 3 pound brain your god, than all the evils are foreign to you because you have made your mind the creator and source for what's good and what's true. This is self worship and is another name for the religion called atheism.

 

[Joey Wahoo]

Fossils are proof God doesn't exist.

How so? Might not a theist argue that fossils, like the rest of creation, are proof that God does exist?

 

[Xenophage]

How so? Might not a theist argue that fossils, like the rest of creation, are proof that God does exist?

How old is the Earth?

 

[Kraig]

Very, very good points.

Has anyone really pondered these? Why on Earth, if God did provide us rights, would he then deny other countries the same rights? Why are women opressed, stoned to death, or beaten in public still? Why didn't God originally provide full rights to African Americans?

Because rights didn't come from God. They came from different humans who varied in their ability to fight for and convince others of their rights. Naturally the results are also varied.

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

You are playing into the hands of those who wish to take your liberty. STOP IT NOW! TONES

 

[The_Orlonater]

Replace "God" with what works best with human nature and use.
You don't have to fear someone for that.

 

[Joey Wahoo]

Originally Posted by Sheepdog11
And if God is the supplier of these rights, why are some people born into America with many rights, while others are born in places where they HAVE NO RIGHTS?

All people have the same rights, regardless of where they are born. You are falling into the trap of believing that government is the source of rights. That is not true. Just governments exist to secure pre-existing rights, whose source is God. That is the fundamental premise of our Bill of Rights for example.

Just because someone may unfortunately live in a society where they are denied the freedom to exercise their rights, does not mean they do not possess them.

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

YOU are giving our liberty to devils...REFRAIN! tones