AR question

[Acala]

Greetings Freedom Fighters!

I have a question for you. I am no novice to firearms. I have been shooting for years and have no shortage of battle-worthy rifles, but I don't have anything chambered in .223. So I am looking at getting an AR.

I have read the other threads here and am ready to buy a CMMG, but the number of variants and modifications are bewildering! I have no experience with ARs and could use some help hacking through the jungle.

I would like the rifle for short and medium range. (The M1A will take care of any long distance needs). And I would like to have the ability to easily mount an electo-optical sight. What do I really need?

Help!

 

[madengr]

Do your research because there is allot of lower quality stuff out there. I'd get a 16" barrel and a quad rail hand-gaurd (full length rail on top) to mount your BUIS (BackUp Iron Sights) and an Aimpoint or EOTech. I'd also spend the extra on the LMT BCG (Lewis Machine Tool Bolt Carrier Group) since that is where majority of failures are. I like my S&W M&P15T sicne it has all of these standard and can be had for ~$1300

However the next one I buy will be either Noveske, LMT, or Colt since those are considered to be the highest quality by those who shoot professionally.

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=44
http://www.lewismachine.net/

Take a browse through this forum too:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=otherguns

This is a chart from ar15.com that compares who does what:

 

[Acala]

Where d'ya git it?

Where did you get your rifle?

 

[Dequeant]

Seriously.....if you're going to spend $1,300 on the rifle, not including optics, build one from scratch.

If you're going for reliability, go with a Rock River Arms or a POF lower. As uppers go, if you're a lefty you now have a number of options, if not you can build it a lil more cheaply. DPMS, CMMG, and RRA all make very high quality uppers.

*sigh* I was going to make this a long post about the many options available, but ons second thought....there are so many its ridiculous.

I just built my new 6.8SPC left handed AR15....its nice. Stag upper with DPMS lower.

 

[Luft97]

I myself went with Rock River Arms. It's a great gun, I love it. I was going back and forth between the Colt and Rock River and then I read up on Rock River and the torture test they put their weapons through in order to get the DEA contract and decided on them. Here is the article:

Many elite AR15 manufacturers submitted weapons for approval but fell short during the abuse test, which was the initial phase of testing. Rock River Arms AR15 .223/5.56 NATO met the requirements and specifications set forth by DEA. The abuse test consisted of the parts interchange test, the extreme temperature test, the drop test, the throw test and the corrosion test. In the parts interchange test, the carbines were field stripped. The major component parts were randomly interchanged and reassembled. Each carbine was then loaded and fired and had to perform without malfunction. During the extreme temperature test, the carbines were placed in a chamber and stabilized at a temperature of minus 20 F for one hour. Then the weapons were removed and immediately fired at room temperature. Then the carbines were placed in a temperature chamber where it was stabilized at 120 F for one hour then removed and immediately fired at room temperature. The weapon then moved on to the drop test from a height of 4 feet and dropped onto a concrete floor six different times on all sides of the carbine. After completing the drop safety test, the weapon was loaded and had to safely fire 20 rounds with no malfunction to pass. The throw test consisted of throwing the firearm from a height of four feet and over a distance of 15 feet, once on the right side and once on the left side, then must safely fire 20 rounds with no malfunction. It was then submerged in salt water and exposed to sand. After both tests the weapon had to function flawlessly.


Rock River Arms was one of the selected few that outperformed the other manufacturers and moved on to phase two of the testing. Phase two was the 5,000 round endurance/functional reliability test. The testing team consisted of members of the DEA and FBI Firearms Training Unit and the DEA and FBI armorers/gunsmiths. The team also tested for accuracy, dispersion and velocity.


Rock River Arms is supplying the DEA with their AR15 chambered in .223/5.56 NATO, equipped with an Eo Tech holo sight, a Surefire rail and white light, a Viking sling and an Eagle Industry carry case. The DEA awarded Rock River Arms the contract, followed by a substantial purchase order.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=594

I figured the DEA wouldn't pick a sub-standard AR.

I have added a Surefire M900A light with Red LED since I have taken the photo. I couldn't be happier

 

[Luft97]

Where did you get your rifle?

I picked mine up at a local gun show.

 

[madengr]

Where did you get your rifle?

Wilson and Associates for $1261 shipped. Then $30 for the local FFL.

However their web site no longer appears to be working.

Store Hours: Monday - Saturday 8am-5pm **And anytime by appointment**
Location: 2020 N. Redlands Road
Stillwater, OK 74075
View Map
Telephone: 1-800-530-4394
Fax: 405-377-0644
E-mail: [email protected]
Website: http://www.kstactical.com

I bought the wife one at a local shop for $1340. It cost more but they had it there in stock.

This is a good resource:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/

 

[Acala]

Build it?

I'm pretty handy. I've even got some decent gunsmiting tools. Suppose I want to assemble my own? Am I going to save significant money?

On an AR, is it the upper that requires an FFL to receive?

 

[Acala]

Dequeant

Dequeant said:

"*sigh* I was going to make this a long post about the many options available, but ons second thought....there are so many its ridiculous."

THAT is exactly why I asked! It will take me months to get up to speed from where I am.

So maybe you can tell me what basic platform I need to start with so I can build on later?

Thanks

 

[madengr]

I took Larry Vicker's carbine class in 4/07 with a new DPMS. Over 800 rounds I had several failure to extracts and a few failure to ejects. I sold that gun and bought an M&P15T; learned my lesson.

I ran the M&P for 1200 rounds through Pat Roger's carbine class in 8/07 and it had no problems. It was 103F in the shade and 120 F on the range (that's what a thermometer would heat to). Pat had three other M&P's that students were shooting. Once they get over 15k rounds each he will do a review in SWAT magazine.

Pat also has a photo book of failures (100+ of them) he has documented during his classes. IIRC 90% of the failures were with the BCG. Lot's of Bushmasters, DPMS, and other popular brand rifles. The lesson is you do get what you pay for. Colt seems to be the best and has the least failures. They only sell to Mil and LE so you have to pull strings to get one.

 

[Sharpstick]

Get the CMMG , great guns, not the top of the line but very near.

Lightweight barrel, The M4 profile barrel is useless unless your mounting a grenade launcher.

6 position M4 stock, not the CAR stock

Flat top A3 upper, offers the most options

A railed hand guard is great but its not necessary until you start actually needing it.

Tritium front sight post, Cant see the sights at night you will play hell trying to aim.

Footman's loop, this allows you to attach the sling to the point were the stock tube meets the lower receiver.

Ambidextrous safety.

After that you will find what you need as you shoot the rifle.

Don't get any left handed uppers , you loose the benefit of available standard parts. I shoot my AR just as much left handed as i do right and have no problems.

 

[Luft97]

I took Larry Vicker's carbine class in 4/07 with a new DPMS. Over 800 rounds I had several failure to extracts and a few failure to ejects. I sold that gun and bought an M&P15T; learned my lesson.

I ran the M&P for 1200 rounds through Pat Roger's carbine class in 8/07 and it had no problems. It was 103F in the shade and 120 F on the range (that's what a thermometer would heat to). Pat had three other M&P's that students were shooting. Once they get over 15k rounds each he will do a review in SWAT magazine.

Pat also has a photo book of failures (100+ of them) he has documented during his classes. IIRC 90% of the failures were with the BCG. Lot's of Bushmasters, DPMS, and other popular brand rifles. The lesson is you do get what you pay for. Colt seems to be the best and has the least failures. They only sell to Mil and LE so you have to pull strings to get one.

I saw several new M&P 15 at the dealer I bought my RRA from.. Colt as well stamped for LE use only. I looked at all 3 and stayed with the RRA as that was what I had decided on before I went to the show..

I'm sure the other two (Colt and M&P) are just fine but I have been very happy with my RRA.

Here is annother article on the Rock River Arms FBI/DEA Deal:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_50/ai_n6180945

 

[Acala]

Thanks

Thanks for all the advice.

I decided that first I am going to buy a vz-58! Cuz I love Czech guns. And I don't have anything chambered for 7.62x39.

But I will eventually have to get something in .223.

 

[madengr]

You will probably want to make sure what you are buying is chambered for 5.56mm. You can shoot .223 in a 5.56mm but not vice-versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56 mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56 mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Rem test barrels (SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56 mm round fired is a proof load, very dangerous). The 5.56 mm chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber[2] or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm and .223 equally well.


These 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges are identical in appearance to .223 Remington. They are, however, not completely interchangeable.
Using commercial .223 cartridges in a 5.56-chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223-chambered gun due to the excessive leade. [3] Using 5.56 mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223-chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[4] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14[5], but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm ammunition.

 

[SWATH]

Hey Madengr,
What your screen name over on Arfcom?

 

[madengr]

Hey Madengr,
What your screen name over on Arfcom?

I don't think I'm registered over there. I blow enough time on forums as it is.