Anarchy Means Only No Rule, No Rulers; In Other Words -- Freedom

That's how it works now. Not everyone is allowed to vote. Criminals, minors and non-citizens for example.

Minors and non-citizens, really? That's your argument?

Criminals are getting their voting rights back in many places.



How would you fix the huge problem we have where the majority steals from the minority?

Is that what happens?


I believe one of the biggest problems we have is unequal protection under the law, one of the most flagrant and damaging examples is progressive taxation.

I also believe we have a problem with unequal protection under the law, one of the most flagrant and damaging examples is regressive criminal liability.
 
I also believe we have a problem with unequal protection under the law, one of the most flagrant and damaging examples is regressive criminal liability.

What is that exactly?


Here are a few examples of unequal protection under the law:

- top income tax rate of 40% - bottom is 0%

- employees can sue employer for lots of things like discrimination, but not the other way around.

- only business owners can be in violation of antitrust laws. this is especially bad because antitrust laws are made up after the fact. the owners have no idea beforehand what the law requires of them.
 
Freedom is messy, without a doubt.

Animals in captivity, in a zoo, routinely live longer than those in the wild.

Life in a cage, even in a gilded, safe, comfortable cage, is not life...not for a free man anyway.

I think what Western Civilization created and culminated here, with our founding documents, strikes the best possible balance the world has ever seen.

Which is why I am no hurry to burn it all down, but I am willing to fight to protect or to separate it from the people or peoples, that are actively trying to destroy it.


It's true, as you say, that "freedom is messy." It entails a certain amount of risk, to be sure. But it's not nearly so messy or risky as it's being painted here.

For example, virtually everything being said about trade without coercive state authority is not only in error, but has been proven, IN THE REAL WORLD to be erroneous for centuries now, to wit:

Lex mercatoria, or the “Law Merchant,” refers to the privately produced, privately adjudicated, and privately enforced body of customary law that governed virtually every aspect of commercial transactions by the end of the 11th century. Thus, the Law Merchant provides libertarians with an important example of effective law without coercive state authority.

Rapid expansion in agricultural productivity during the 11th and 12th centuries meant that less labor was needed to produce sufficient food and clothing for Europe’s population. The effect of this increase in production was that individuals were able to specialize in particular crafts and population began to move into towns, many of which rapidly became cities. Specialization effectively functions only with trade and the class of professional merchants expanded to facilitate such trade. These merchants spoke different languages and came from different cultures. However, although geographic distances often prevented direct communication, let alone the building of strong personal bonds that would facilitate trust, the effect of this increased trade across large distances required numerous middlemen to move products from producers to their ultimate consumers. All of this activity generated mistrust among merchants. Internationally recognized commercial law arose as a substitute for personal trust. As one historian has pointed out, it was during this period “that the basic concepts and institutions of … lex mercatoria … were formed, and, even more important, it was then that [this] … law … first came to be viewed as an integrated, developing system, a body of law.”

The Law Merchant developed within the merchant community, rather than through government fiat; the police power was not the source of incentives to recognize its rules. Indeed, the Law Merchant was a voluntarily recognized body of law willingly embraced by its adherents. The reciprocity necessary for voluntary recognition arose, in part, from the mutual gains generated by repeated exchange. Furthermore, each merchant traded with many other merchants, so the spread of information about breaches of commercial conduct would affect a merchant’s reputation for all his subsequent transactions. Indeed, the Law Merchant was ultimately backed by the threat of ostracism by the merchant community at large because individuals known to engage in illegal behavior would not have found trading partners.

Merchants also established their own courts. One crucial reason for doing so was that royal courts often were not prepared to enforce customary merchant practices and usage (e.g., royal courts would not recognize contracts that involved interest charges because these courts regarded all interest as usurious). In addition, merchant court judges were merchants chosen from the relevant trading community (whether from a fair or a market), whereas lawyers and royal judges often had no knowledge of commercial issues. The effect was that the risk of an inefficient ruling was substantially lower in a merchant court, particularly when highly technical commercial issues were involved. Additionally, merchants traditionally had to complete their transactions during a brief period, at one market or fair, and then quickly move on to the next. The need for speed and informality in settling disputes was unmet when confronting judges who had no knowledge of commercial issues.

Where the participants to a dispute found, because of conflicting local customs, that alternative rules might apply, those practices that proved to be the most conducive to facilitating commerce often supplanted those that were less effective. When new conditions arose that were not clearly covered by an existing rule, the scope of existing rules was expanded to encompass the new conditions or an entirely new rule was devised. The mechanism by which legal change was introduced was through agreement of the parties involved. Another mechanism for change was dispute resolution. In either case, the new rule only applied to the parties directly involved who had agreed to the rule. If others saw these changes as useful, they adopted them in future interactions. In this matter, rules spread through a process of voluntary acceptance.

The Law Merchant underwent considerable change in a relatively short time. One commentator has noted that, “a great many if not most of the structural elements of the modern system of commercial law were formed in this period.” By the 12th century, commercial law in Europe provided foreign merchants with substantial protection “against the vagaries of local laws and customs,” and by the early 13th century, the Law Merchant clearly was a universal, integrated system of principles, concepts, rules, and procedures. Indeed another reason for the use of merchant courts was that royal judges would not or could not adopt new rules as fast as the rapidly changing commercial system required. From 1000 to 1200, and especially from 1050 to 1150, the rights and obligations of merchants in their dealings with each other “became substantially more objective and less arbitrary, more precise and less loose.” After all, no one would voluntarily recognize a legal system that was not expected to treat him fairly.

Kings gradually asserted authority over commerce, generally to tax it or to extract other types of revenues by selling monopoly franchises or other special privileges to politically powerful business interests. The Law Merchant became less recognizable as royal courts supplanted merchant courts and as statutes, precedents, and treaties supplanted or supplemented business tradition and practice. Nonetheless, the rules that were initiated in the Law Merchant have survived in varying degrees within nations and particularly in international trade. In fact, beginning in the mid-​1950s, lex mercatoria also began to be applied to certain aspects of international commercial law, which largely remained customary law. The customary rules of international trade are still backed by the desire to maintain reputations and arrangements that would encourage repeated dealings with other traders. Furthermore, almost all international contracts involving trade expressly mandate arbitration rather than adjudication by national courts. International arbitration procedures are speedy and flexible, but they also are chosen because traders assume that national courts will not enforce obligations derived solely from commercial practice and usage, whereas arbitrators “do not hesitate to refer to international commercial custom, including contract practices in international trade, as a basis for their award.” Detailed analysis has revealed that, with respect to arbitration, “the answer to every dispute is to be found prima facie in the contract itself. What did the parties intend, what did they agree and what did they expect?” When a contract does not reveal the intentions of the parties, arbitrators still do not refer to any nationalized system of law unless the parties have specified one in the contract. Instead, they apply a “non-​national and generally accepted rule or practice” that the parties should have been aware of within their international business community. Thus, in international trade, the Law Merchant continues to govern.

https://www.libertarianism.org/topics/law-merchant

With advancements in shipping, travel and communications the lex mercatoria would be even easier to maintain in its traditional form (without coercive state authority) now than it was in the past, making the claim that there would be no significant trade in a stateless society ludicrous.

As far as Somalia goes while that is a mixed bag, the portrayal of that situation here is also inaccurate.

It's true that if you compare Somalia to the US, Singapore, or basically any first world nation NOW Somalia doesn't come out looking so good. But just making that simple comparison and saying "See? Look how crappy things get when you don't have a state." is disingenuous in the extreme.

First of all, Somalia was much worse off than those other places, even more so in fact, WHEN THEY STILL DID HAVE A GOVERNMENT. If you compare Somalia NOW with how things were when they did still have a government, you find that the Somali people are much better off now than they were then in every significant metric. Their economy is stronger. Their money is more stable. They even have the best telecommunications in Africa. In fact, "on nearly all of 18 key indicators that allow pre- and post-stateless welfare comparisons, Somalis are better off under anarchy than they were under government. Renewed vibrancy in critical sectors of Somalia’s economy and public goods in the absence of a predatory state are responsible for this improvement." (emphasis added) https://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

Furthermore, some of the serious problems that do exist are the direct result of outside forces trying to force a strong, centralized government that they don't want down the throats of the Somali people.

https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it

Finally, no voluntaryist/anarchist has ever claimed that eliminating the state would lead to paradise. Somalia certainly isn't a paradise. But they are MUCH BETTER OFF NOW than they were with a government.

Many of the differences in quality of life between Somalia and first world countries are rooted in long-standing Somali culture and traditions. Take a population with a culture and traditions better suited to peace, health and prosperity, Western Culture for example, and remove their government and they would do even better.

The other major factor in how well things go under statelessness is the general moral character of the population concerned. I'll leave it to you to decide if Western Culture produces more moral people overall that do other alternatives.
 
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Do you believe that people at the top income tax rate and people at the bottom income tax rate are treated equally by the government?

Obviously not. The fact that there's a top rate and bottom rate proves this.

I listed 3 specific cases where the government treats successful people worse by law.

You didn't answer my question. How are criminal penalties regressive?
 
Can you just tell me so I don't have to buy the book.

I don't know what's in the book, but that crime bill of 1992 that Biden sponsored and Clinton signed had wildly different penalties for powder and crack cocaine, just for starters. That still has untold numbers of poor people in prison for life.

Come on, man. If you were in jail, would you have a public defender even if they would assign you one? Get real.
 
Can you just tell me so I don't have to buy the book.

The higher your income/wealth, the less likely you are to be arrested, less likely to be charged, less likely to spend time in pretrial confinement, less likely to be convicted, and less likely to be sentenced to prison. You will generally receive a lighter sentence for the same crime than a less well off person.

Separately, punishments between blue and white collar crimes are not at all similar. For example, the specified punishment for millions of dollars in securities fraud is generally similar to the punishment for thousands of dollars in theft.

Then you have things such as what @acptulsa mentioned about "rich people" crimes vs "poor people" crimes, such as with cocaine vs. crack.

You mentioned business owners and antitrust laws. Business owners, or others with adequate funds laying around, can create corporations which will insulate them from personal legal liability by shifting that liability to their business entities.

And so on. The result of centuries of lobbying.
 
Then you have things such as what @acptulsa mentioned about "rich people" crimes vs "poor people" crimes, such as with cocaine vs. crack.

You mentioned business owners and antitrust laws. Business owners, or others with adequate funds laying around, can create corporations which will insulate them from personal legal liability by shifting that liability to their business entities.

And so on. The result of centuries of lobbying.

I don't where this view of corporations comes from but it is a really daft.

Corporations are not a result of lobbying. Setting up an LLC costs $50 and it isn't a rich people thing. And it isn't some get out liability free card. It provides *some* protection of personal assets if there is a lawsuit resulting from conducting the business but even then that isn't really true. Most protection of personal assets comes from insurance. Employees wouldn't need to be a corporation because they are working under the umbrella of a corporation.
 
The higher your income/wealth, the less likely you are to be arrested, less likely to be charged, less likely to spend time in pretrial confinement, less likely to be convicted, and less likely to be sentenced to prison. You will generally receive a lighter sentence for the same crime than a less well off person.

Separately, punishments between blue and white collar crimes are not at all similar. For example, the specified punishment for millions of dollars in securities fraud is generally similar to the punishment for thousands of dollars in theft.

Then you have things such as what @acptulsa mentioned about "rich people" crimes vs "poor people" crimes, such as with cocaine vs. crack.

You mentioned business owners and antitrust laws. Business owners, or others with adequate funds laying around, can create corporations which will insulate them from personal legal liability by shifting that liability to their business entities.

And so on. The result of centuries of lobbying.

Most of that is not unequal protection under the law. The laws are the same for everyone it's just that some people can afford better attorneys.

The irony is that one of the main causes of wealth disparity are unjust laws like progressive taxation.

Poor majority vote to steal from rich minority => poor get poorer => can't afford legal assistance => poor majority vote to steal even more from rich minority
 
I don't know what's in the book, but that crime bill of 1992 that Biden sponsored and Clinton signed had wildly different penalties for powder and crack cocaine, just for starters. That still has untold numbers of poor people in prison for life.

Come on, man. If you were in jail, would you have a public defender even if they would assign you one? Get real.

Progressive taxation causes far more damage to the poor than any difference in penalties of crack vs powder. It's not even close.
 
I don't where this view of corporations comes from but it is a really daft.

For starters:

Hollywood movies, it's always the evil corporation against the poor victim.

Politicians and journalists who blame everything on "corporate greed".

Envy is a powerful emotion. I'm always disappointed by members on this website falling for that crap.
 
Progressive taxation causes far more damage to the poor than any difference in penalties of crack vs powder. It's not even close.

Unless you're in jail for life and being used as slave labor for smoking crack, of course.
 
Unless you're in jail for life and being used as slave labor for smoking crack, of course.

Are people getting life sentences for smoking crack?

Besides I think all drugs should be legal.

Taken as a whole, progressive taxation harms the poor far more than the powder vs crack discrepancy. Do you disagree?

I'm talking about root causes and I believe by far the biggest problem with government is the mob voting to punish success and reward failure.
 
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Are people getting life sentences for smoking crack?

Besides I think all drugs should be legal.

Taken as a whole, progressive taxation harms the poor far more than the powder vs crack discrepancy. Do you disagree?

That's a very narrow question, yet still lacks specificity. Taken as a whole, the body of law and the legal system are far better for the rich than the poor. Use corporate personhood to characterize corporations as rich people, and it's not even close.

And yes, people have been in prison throughout this entire millennium for crack cocaine charges.

So, do you drink?
 
That's a very narrow question, yet still lacks specificity. Taken as a whole, the body of law and the legal system are far better for the rich than the poor. Use corporate personhood to characterize corporations as rich people, and it's not even close.

And yes, people have been in prison throughout this entire millennium for crack cocaine charges.

So, do you drink?

Cerveza?

I don't like the difference in sentencing crack vs powder if that makes you feel any better.

Do you at least agree that progressive taxation hurts the poor and violates equal protection under the law?
 
I don't where this view of corporations comes from but it is a really daft.
It is a Shield from Liability.. an escape from Responsibility.

Long considered Immoral they were eventually Legalized,, (like Abortion)

Most still act immorally.
 
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It is a Shield from Liability.. an escape from Responsibility.

Long considered Immoral they were eventually Legalized,, (like Abortion)

Most still act immorally.

Keep in mind if you're going to remove the liability protection offered to corporations you'd also have to remove the liability protection offered to individuals, which is filing for bankruptcy.
 
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