Pericles
Member
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 9,921
Anarchy was the natural state of man. Why didn't it last? You need to figure that out if you expect to prevent a recurrence of the past.
Anarchy Draws Near as Greece Flirts With Default
- Thread starter FrankRep
- Start date
Anarchy was the natural state of man. Why didn't it last? You need to figure that out if you expect to prevent a recurrence of the past.
DerailingDaTrain
Member
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,738
It's the government/police setting Athens ablaze.
Dude, I know that some police are disguised in the crowd but I've seen video of hundreds of black wearing self described anarchists throwing molotovs at riot police and breaking off pieces of marble and concrete to chuck at them. Hell, I don't even disagree with them doing so, they're fucked over there but don't say it's the police setting the place on fire.
Johnny Appleseed
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2011
- Messages
- 1,023
Greece fires are the worst to put out...if you use water it just makes it worser
LibertyEagle
Paleoconservative
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 52,730
Well, "Dude", I'm talking to friends who actually live over there and they have told me that all those wearing masks are with the government.
Personally, I trust that more than what the MSM says.
NewRightLibertarian
Member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2010
- Messages
- 4,589
It didn't last because evil people established the state to benefit themselves and brainwashed people to believe that it was necessary.
DerailingDaTrain
Member
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,738
So every single person rioting in the streets is a cop? That is the most unbelievable statement I have ever heard. Why would the police throw molotovs at the police? Why would the police burn down buildings in Greece? There is no way that is possible. Face it, people are pissed, and they are burning stuff and rioting. IF you are correct then that would mean the government in Greece is responsible for one of the most massive conspiracies ever. I suppose the police just have a bunch of teenage police officers on hand to riot at a moment's notice and make the protestors look bad?
Also, how do your friends who live over there know they are with the government? Seems like they wouldn't just divulge that information willingly. I'm sorry man and if I could find any proof other than a few undercover police officers dressed in black I'd definitely admit I am wrong but that is just not the case and I didn't get any of this from the MSM but instead from people who live there.
I suppose all of these people in these videos are cops just trying to make people look bad:
Last edited:
DamianTV
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2007
- Messages
- 20,677
Every Tribe had a Tribe Leader. As much as I can not stand our current Govt, I think that Govt is the natural progression of small Tribal Politics into a Larger Scale. Wolves have Alpha Males. Most pack animals have some sort of leader that the rest look to for guidance. At the same time, I do believe you are correct that evil people have manipulated the natural course of events into something that would benefit themselves at the expense of everything else.
Johnny Appleseed
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2011
- Messages
- 1,023
What they need are paintball guns or paint bombs not molotovs and rocks, smear the face shields of those protective masks and helmets and they're done
LibertyEagle
Paleoconservative
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 52,730
There are a lot of Greek citizens protesting, yes. What I am talking about are the people in the masks. They are police/government and it is they who are doing most all of the destructive acts.
But, you see, you made up the statement and then deemed it horrible.
Possibly because they want to make it look like the Greek people are doing that, to take attention off of what the Greeks are upset about. It's all about swaying public opinion.
Yes, people are upset. Their country has been bankrupted. They are not being allowed to vote for their leaders. They don't want anything to do with the IMF.
Maybe you are so shocked because you are not aware that this type of thing has happened numerous times in the past. It's not a new thing for police to do this. Very sad, yes.
In large part, the ones in masks appear to be the ones starting the fires and yes, they are with the government.
Last edited:
DerailingDaTrain
Member
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,738
That is exactly who I am talking about. The people in the masks are the protestors not the government. Are you telling me there are no people in masks who are just citizens of Athens?
No.
Everyone knows what they are upset about and its reported all over the world in newspapers, on televesion, on the radio, etc. so that doesn't make sense for them to do any of this and then blame it on the protestors. If these people are police/government why don't the actual protestors grab them and make that individual stop? What are the police going to do? If they help the person then they are exposed as an undercover.
Doesn't make any sense because it only makes the government look worse in the eyes of other countries for not being able to control its people or pull itself out of the horrible situation they are in. Dressing up in black and throwing molotovs at their own people doesn't accomplish anything that would interest them.
Last edited:
Yeah, doesn`t make much sense unless it`s some kinda` blackmail strategy to get the money faster from Germany, making the cases that total chaos is close unless they pay up asap.
NiceGoing
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2010
- Messages
- 301
The Virtues of Defaulting
When Debt is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil (February 18, 2012)
http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php...ore-important-than-people-the-system-is-evil/
The Empire of Debt has only one end-point: a death spiral. It is evil and must be dismantled.
Ethics has no place in the Empire of Debt. The financialized Status Quo is careful to limit the language used to describe the situation in Greece to the subtexts of "obligations" and "avoiding chaos."
The reality being masked is that debt is now more important than people. The suffering of the people of Greece is presented as a footnote to the financial play being staged; when the suffering is noted, it is presented with a peculiar set of unspoken subtexts:
1. Looky-loo detachment of the "gosh, look at that wrecked car, are there any bodies?" sort. People slow down to look at car crashes, and they revel in videos of riots with the same detached fascination with mayhem that doesn't involve them. Tsk tsk, how awful, etc.
2. They're reaping what they sowed, "they made their bed, now they have to sleep in it," i.e. the suffering of Greek non-Elites is the richly deserved consequences of their government overborrowing.
This begs further investigation. In the normal course of affairs in corrupt kleptocracies, various Elites siphon off most of the swag and the commoners get just enough shreds to buy their complicity. In other words, it may well be that the entire populace of Greece benefitted handsomely from the massive State borrowing, but it also may well be that the private-sector Greeks received little of the swag. In this case, they don't "deserve" to be forced into debt-serfdom by their Euroland overlords.
The ethics of debt, at least in the officially sanctioned media, boils down to: nobody made them borrow all those euros, and so their suffering is just desserts.
What's lost in this subtext is the responsibility of the lender. Yes, nobody forced Greece to borrow 200 billion euros (or whatever the true total may be), but then nobody forced the lenders to extend the credit in the first place.
Consider an individual who is a visibly poor credit risk. He would like to borrow money to blow on consumption and then stiff the lender, but since he cannot create credit, he has to live within his means.
Now a lender comes along who can create credit out of thin air (via fractional reserve banking) and offers this poor credit risk $100,000 in collateral-free debt at low rates of interest. Who is responsible for the creation and extension of credit? The borrower or the lender? Answer: the lender.
In other words, if the lender is foolish enough to extend huge quantities of credit to a poor credit risk, then it's the lender who should suffer the losses when the borrower defaults.
This is the basis of bankruptcy laws--or used to be the basis. When an over-extended borrower defaults, the debt is cleared, the lender takes the loss/writedown, and the borrower loses whatever collateral was pledged. He is left with the basics to carry on: his auto, clothing, his job, and so on. His credit rating is impaired, and it is now his responsibility to earn back a credible credit rating.
The debt is discharged and the borrower must live within his means without relying on credit. But he is also free of the burdens of servicing the debt.
If the lender is forced into insolvency due to the losses, then so be it: lenders that cannot differentiate between good and bad credit risks should go under and disappear: that's what happens in a competitive, transparent capitalist economy. Fools who create credit and extend it to poor credit risks must be eliminated from the system as quickly as possible lest they destroy more capital in the future.
The potential for loss and actually bearing the consequences from irresponsible extensions of credit was unacceptable to the banking cartel, so they rewrote the laws. Now student loans in America cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court; they are permanent and must be carried and serviced until death. This is the acme of debt-serfdom.
The global banking cartel has declared Greece's debts to be permanent and its people debt-serfs. More precisely, some privately held debt will be written down, but certainly not all of it, and the debt owed to the European Central Bank cannot be written down a single euro: Greece must pay the interest on the full debt, whatever the costs to its people.
We might ask why the fully-financialized Status Quo of financial and political Elites so carefully insures no shadow of ethics passes over the Greek debt crisis: If they did, it would become obvious that when debt becomes more important than people, the system is evil and should be dismantled.
Yes, evil, as in evil empire: the Empire of Debt that now dominates the global economy is intrinsically evil and cannot be salvaged; the only way to rid the planet of its parasitic, pervasive evil is to dismantle it, all of it, everywhere.
Europe is a good place to start. The only way to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt is to stop obeying its commands: Greece should not pay a single euro on any of its debts, starting with debt owed to the Evil Empire of Debt's favorite tool, the Troika of the EU (European Union), the ECB and the IMF.
We are constantly told default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro would lead to chaos. Unfortunately for the Evil Empire of Debt and its Eurozone army of lackeys, toadies and apparatchiks, this claim is demonstrably false. Thanks to Pater Tenebrarum of the always excellent Acting Man financial blog, we have access to a 53-page report from Variant Perception that completely dismantles the fear-mongering claims of Apocalypse for the Greeks should their government default on its debts.
A Primer on the Euro Breakup: Default, Exit and Devaluation as the Optimal Solution. The only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro.
Once the debt has been renounced, Greece will have to live within its means, i.e. the goods and services produced by their economy. I think a critically important point has been lost in all the fear-mongering: the value of the goods and services produced by an economy remain the same whether they are valued in euros, gold, dollars, bat guano or any other open-market measure of value.
What will impoverish Greece is paying interest on the mountain of debt. If we value total Greek output of goods and services at 100 quatloos, and this economic activity generates a surplus of 10 quatloos, the Greek people can decide to consume that 10 quatloos, invest it or some mix of the two.
If they have to pay 10 quatloos in interest, then there is no capital left to invest in productive assets. As the existing productive assets degrade, wear out and become obsolete, then the goods and services produced will decline, along with the surplus generated. This sets up a positive feedback loop, i.e. a death spiral: as production of value declines, so too does the surplus available to invest in productive assets.
This is why the only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro. The only way forward is to value people more than debt, and to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt.
When Debt is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil (February 18, 2012)
http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php...ore-important-than-people-the-system-is-evil/
The Empire of Debt has only one end-point: a death spiral. It is evil and must be dismantled.
Ethics has no place in the Empire of Debt. The financialized Status Quo is careful to limit the language used to describe the situation in Greece to the subtexts of "obligations" and "avoiding chaos."
The reality being masked is that debt is now more important than people. The suffering of the people of Greece is presented as a footnote to the financial play being staged; when the suffering is noted, it is presented with a peculiar set of unspoken subtexts:
1. Looky-loo detachment of the "gosh, look at that wrecked car, are there any bodies?" sort. People slow down to look at car crashes, and they revel in videos of riots with the same detached fascination with mayhem that doesn't involve them. Tsk tsk, how awful, etc.
2. They're reaping what they sowed, "they made their bed, now they have to sleep in it," i.e. the suffering of Greek non-Elites is the richly deserved consequences of their government overborrowing.
This begs further investigation. In the normal course of affairs in corrupt kleptocracies, various Elites siphon off most of the swag and the commoners get just enough shreds to buy their complicity. In other words, it may well be that the entire populace of Greece benefitted handsomely from the massive State borrowing, but it also may well be that the private-sector Greeks received little of the swag. In this case, they don't "deserve" to be forced into debt-serfdom by their Euroland overlords.
The ethics of debt, at least in the officially sanctioned media, boils down to: nobody made them borrow all those euros, and so their suffering is just desserts.
What's lost in this subtext is the responsibility of the lender. Yes, nobody forced Greece to borrow 200 billion euros (or whatever the true total may be), but then nobody forced the lenders to extend the credit in the first place.
Consider an individual who is a visibly poor credit risk. He would like to borrow money to blow on consumption and then stiff the lender, but since he cannot create credit, he has to live within his means.
Now a lender comes along who can create credit out of thin air (via fractional reserve banking) and offers this poor credit risk $100,000 in collateral-free debt at low rates of interest. Who is responsible for the creation and extension of credit? The borrower or the lender? Answer: the lender.
In other words, if the lender is foolish enough to extend huge quantities of credit to a poor credit risk, then it's the lender who should suffer the losses when the borrower defaults.
This is the basis of bankruptcy laws--or used to be the basis. When an over-extended borrower defaults, the debt is cleared, the lender takes the loss/writedown, and the borrower loses whatever collateral was pledged. He is left with the basics to carry on: his auto, clothing, his job, and so on. His credit rating is impaired, and it is now his responsibility to earn back a credible credit rating.
The debt is discharged and the borrower must live within his means without relying on credit. But he is also free of the burdens of servicing the debt.
If the lender is forced into insolvency due to the losses, then so be it: lenders that cannot differentiate between good and bad credit risks should go under and disappear: that's what happens in a competitive, transparent capitalist economy. Fools who create credit and extend it to poor credit risks must be eliminated from the system as quickly as possible lest they destroy more capital in the future.
The potential for loss and actually bearing the consequences from irresponsible extensions of credit was unacceptable to the banking cartel, so they rewrote the laws. Now student loans in America cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court; they are permanent and must be carried and serviced until death. This is the acme of debt-serfdom.
The global banking cartel has declared Greece's debts to be permanent and its people debt-serfs. More precisely, some privately held debt will be written down, but certainly not all of it, and the debt owed to the European Central Bank cannot be written down a single euro: Greece must pay the interest on the full debt, whatever the costs to its people.
We might ask why the fully-financialized Status Quo of financial and political Elites so carefully insures no shadow of ethics passes over the Greek debt crisis: If they did, it would become obvious that when debt becomes more important than people, the system is evil and should be dismantled.
Yes, evil, as in evil empire: the Empire of Debt that now dominates the global economy is intrinsically evil and cannot be salvaged; the only way to rid the planet of its parasitic, pervasive evil is to dismantle it, all of it, everywhere.
Europe is a good place to start. The only way to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt is to stop obeying its commands: Greece should not pay a single euro on any of its debts, starting with debt owed to the Evil Empire of Debt's favorite tool, the Troika of the EU (European Union), the ECB and the IMF.
We are constantly told default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro would lead to chaos. Unfortunately for the Evil Empire of Debt and its Eurozone army of lackeys, toadies and apparatchiks, this claim is demonstrably false. Thanks to Pater Tenebrarum of the always excellent Acting Man financial blog, we have access to a 53-page report from Variant Perception that completely dismantles the fear-mongering claims of Apocalypse for the Greeks should their government default on its debts.
A Primer on the Euro Breakup: Default, Exit and Devaluation as the Optimal Solution. The only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro.
Once the debt has been renounced, Greece will have to live within its means, i.e. the goods and services produced by their economy. I think a critically important point has been lost in all the fear-mongering: the value of the goods and services produced by an economy remain the same whether they are valued in euros, gold, dollars, bat guano or any other open-market measure of value.
What will impoverish Greece is paying interest on the mountain of debt. If we value total Greek output of goods and services at 100 quatloos, and this economic activity generates a surplus of 10 quatloos, the Greek people can decide to consume that 10 quatloos, invest it or some mix of the two.
If they have to pay 10 quatloos in interest, then there is no capital left to invest in productive assets. As the existing productive assets degrade, wear out and become obsolete, then the goods and services produced will decline, along with the surplus generated. This sets up a positive feedback loop, i.e. a death spiral: as production of value declines, so too does the surplus available to invest in productive assets.
This is why the only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro. The only way forward is to value people more than debt, and to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt.
Wikipedia: Pravda
Pravda (Russian: Правда, "Truth", About this sound pronunciation (help·info)) was a leading newspaper of the Soviet Union and an official organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party between 1912 and 1991.
NiceGoing
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2010
- Messages
- 301
Gosh Frank, I would have thought YOU, of all people, would judge a statement, or essay in this case, by the standards of truth and not *labels*. However, in this strange world we now inhabit, RussiaToday, for example (the high-profile Youtube site) offers more truth to the world than "our" MSM - which should more properly be called, the propaganda/puppet Media.
But if it makes you feel more comfortable, perhaps this reference will make you feel better??....Sheesh.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-when-debt-more-important-people-system-evil
But if it makes you feel more comfortable, perhaps this reference will make you feel better??....Sheesh.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-when-debt-more-important-people-system-evil
Pauls' Revere
Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 11,347
Decision Day:
http://news.yahoo.com/decision-day-2nd-greek-bailout-financing-gaps-remain-014018909.html
Diplomats and economists do not expect the package to resolve Greece's economic problems: that could take up to a decade or more - a bleak picture increasingly apparent to several thousand Greeks who demonstrated on Sunday against seemingly endless austerity measures.
The ministers still need to agree new measures to square the numbers, given the ever-worsening state of the Greek economy. But they hope agreement on Monday will help restructure the country's vast debts, put it on a more stable financial footing and keep it inside the single currency zone.
Senior officials from euro zone finance ministries and the European Central Bank held a conference call on Sunday to go over the final details of the 130-billion-euro programme, including a debt sustainability analysis critical to the IMF.
http://news.yahoo.com/decision-day-2nd-greek-bailout-financing-gaps-remain-014018909.html
Diplomats and economists do not expect the package to resolve Greece's economic problems: that could take up to a decade or more - a bleak picture increasingly apparent to several thousand Greeks who demonstrated on Sunday against seemingly endless austerity measures.
The ministers still need to agree new measures to square the numbers, given the ever-worsening state of the Greek economy. But they hope agreement on Monday will help restructure the country's vast debts, put it on a more stable financial footing and keep it inside the single currency zone.
Senior officials from euro zone finance ministries and the European Central Bank held a conference call on Sunday to go over the final details of the 130-billion-euro programme, including a debt sustainability analysis critical to the IMF.
DerailingDaTrain
Member
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,738
Greece is the word
NiceGoing
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2010
- Messages
- 301
They sorely need an authentic Miracle, too...
