Anarcho-Capitalism and human nature, real life discussion

[Occam's Banana]

[T]he way that I've heard anarcho-capitalism could actually work, sounds an awful lot like minarchism. I think we can all agree (aside from maybe our socialist friend here) that the more localized and accountable, the better it's going to work.

(As a voluntaryist anarchist myself) I more than half-suspect that if a truly voluntary society is ever actually achieved, most an-caps & minarchists will proceed to argue over whether it's "really" an anarchy or minarchy ...

 

[FSU63]

I think your dad is right. Anarchy would not realistically work. People would not voluntarily follow your community's set of "rules". There would be rapes, murders, and pillaging all over the place. People would naturally form groups to survive, alpha males would emerge, and they'd eventually become governments. Only, this time, we likely wouldn't have the protections of the Constitution.

Ideally, anarchy would work. But no one can convince me that these same dumbasses that loot and kill during hurricanes, set things on fire after NHL championships, and vote tyrants into office, could be trusted with no rules and no consequences for their actions.

You're naive if you believe that people would follow your voluntary rules.

Yes, people are motivated by money. But in an anarchy, I could just shoot you in the head and take your money. No reason to "earn" it.

 

[Occam's Banana]

Alpha-male Hitler-boy isn't an anarchist. Color me shocked ...

 

[FSU63]

Alpha-male Hitler-boy isn't an anarchist. Color me shocked ...

I'm a minarchist. I believe that the government should only provide the bare minimum:

Police, maybe roads? (can't say for sure either way), border patrol, Navy, maybe firefighters?, courts, prisons, etc.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

I'm a minarchist. I believe that the government should only provide the bare minimum:

Police, maybe roads? (can't say for sure either way), border patrol, Navy, maybe firefighters?, courts, prisons, etc.

And a bureaucratic layer that collects taxes to pay and regulate all of that. It also decides what the rules are.

There's no chance that could ever go wrong.

 

[Christian Liberty]

(As a voluntaryist anarchist myself) I more than half-suspect that if a truly voluntary society is ever actually achieved, most an-caps & minarchists will proceed to argue over whether it's "really" an anarchy or minarchy ...

That's possible. I explained (very briefly, with limited detail) what I believe about politics to my cousin, and he considers me a minarchist. His reasoning: He defines the word "anarchy" as meaning the abolition of ALL governing authorities, not just monopolistic ones, and since I still believe in private laws and private arbitration, he believes I'm a minimalist and not an anarchist. Similarly, I regularly have to point out to my dad that what I object to are laws that violate the NAP and monopolistic systems of governance, not all laws.

Personally, I don't really care what you want to call it. But... most minarchists advocate for some amount of taxation and a (very small) monopoly government. If they didn't, I'd really consider them to be anarchists. I'm not gonna die on the hill of the few things we don't have in common though, as we agree that 95+% of the government is evil. The only exception is the pro-war "libertarians" (who are not minarchists, of course.) I can't work with them very often, we simply disagree too much.

So free trade, but no money? Ummm, okay...

Money is the necessary conclusion to free trade. Otherwise I'm going to be sitting here with my 16 chickens waiting and hoping that a purchaser who happens to need what I have right now and also happens to have the things I need to trade for will come along. It's incredibly inefficient and can be flat out wasteful with perishables that you've just made it much tougher to exchange for what you need. Seriously, do you realize how much that would limit free trade? Well, actually it won't, because traders won't let it if they have a more efficient way.

Money was created as a medium for exactly that reason. You know what would happen if you eliminated money? People would find something else that has accepted value to everyone and trade with that instead. End result, you guessed it, money. You cannot simply eliminate money. The market (no not like a stock market, I mean your traders in your scenario) would always opt for this over bartering. It's far more efficient and the necessary conclusion to free trade.

Now that the economics 101 lesson has concluded, maybe we should discuss some PoliSci101, because communism/socialism (or whatever variant you subscribe to) does not work on a large scale for the simple reason that it lacks the proper motivation, when resources are shared and there is no incentive to give more than you take, and little incentive to innovate or do more than you have to.

On a small scale, sure. There are plenty of small rural towns where a communal attitude still exists to some degree, but this isn't antithetical to capitalism, making (trading) the equal amount of what you produce for society.

So this is where I'm confused. If you have trade/bartering (and thus money), that sounds a hell of a lot like anarcho capitalism, even if there is a communal attitude (In fact I don't think anarcho-capitalism is possible either on a large scale without a paradigm shift away from things our consumerist and greedy priorities, and towards more cooperative and advancing ones).

Anarcho-capitalism would not negate the possibility of communal socialism (on a small scale, the only way it works), but your system isn't getting rid of free market capitalism either. Where there is trade, capitalism exists. It is not a dirty word once you remove the "crony" out of capitalism and replace it with free.

Aside from that, I'll probably exit this conversation now, as the way that I've heard anarco-capitalism could actually work, it sounds an awful lot like minarchism. I think we can all agree (aside from maybe our socialist friend here) that the more localized and accountable, the better it's going to work.

I agree with you of course.

Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism have some things in common, but they aren't exactly the same. Although there are certain definitions of those two terms that can bring them close together. Ultimately, I'd define it by your view of The State. Do you believe that law, courts, police, defense, or arbitration should be provided by the free market if and when they are necessary? I'd say if you want the monopolistic state to do any or all of those things, you're a minarchist. If you think all of them should be handled by the free market to the extent they are necessary (I know with police in particular some people here, whether anarchist or not, do not think any are necessary) than I'd say you're an ancap.

 

[Christian Liberty]

And a bureaucratic layer that collects taxes to pay and regulate all of that. It also decides what the rules are.

There's no chance that could ever go wrong.

The man is a Nazi troll. There are plenty of sincere people who think in a way reflected by his post, but he isn't one of them. As Occam's Banana pointed out, he admires Adolf Hitler.

 

[FSU63]

And a bureaucratic layer that collects taxes to pay and regulate all of that. It also decides what the rules are.

There's no chance that could ever go wrong.

And there's no chance that having no rules could ever go wrong

I'm curious: what do you feel a "voluntaryst" society would look like? Would it be some peaceful utopia where everyone voluntarily follows your rules?

The man is a Nazi troll. There are plenty of sincere people who think in a way reflected by his post, but he isn't one of them. As Occam's Banana pointed out, he admires Adolf Hitler.

What does that have to do with me being a minarchist? I've clearly demonstrated numerous times that while I find Hitler's character inspirational, I definitely do not support his economic or social policies. What's your problem?

I want to drastically cut down on the government. Are you against that?

 

[Sanguine]

And a bureaucratic layer that collects taxes to pay and regulate all of that. It also decides what the rules are.

There's no chance that could ever go wrong.

And "justice" is accountable to the highest bidder as the rich may afford more mercenaries. And no, the poor won't pool their resources to aid anyone, that'll just cause a war in their community. Basically it'll be a violent, global series of wars for power, or it'll be the establishment of pseudo-serfdoms and parties gain regional monopolies.

Tell me how that won't go wrong.