Anarchism is more of a complaint than a solution.

[Ronin Truth]

You know, I find this whole debate rather amusing because the question is rarely ever defined. If the question is, "Is anarchy ideal?", then I think everyone is an anarchist. I don't think you could find a single person that doesn't think it would be great if we could all live peaceably without government. If the question is, "Is anarchy possible?" then I believe anyone who's being honest with themselves knows that it's not possible to have a society without a state. The question, "Do we need government?" is completely moot because we can't get rid of it. No sane person would argue that government is an ideal. At best, it's a necessary evil. Even the most hardcore statists operate under the assumption that more government is not necessarily a good thing, but it is necessary. Whether or not this is true, anarchy is simply a willingness to outwardly express that you believe the absence of government is an ideal condition, but it makes no claims as to the viability of achieving that.

It's more of a comparative advantage debate than a quest for an ideal. The state is an archaic savage and barbaric institution that really just needs to be outgrown. before it kills us all. 6,000 years on the road to nowhere, it's WAAAAY past time to try out some civilized other alternatives.

 

[otherone]

It [anarchy] claims that the ideal condition is where each individual is free to choose their government.

Perfect. Why wouldn't anyone want an opt-out clause? Why would a minarchist want someone to remain who wanted out?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

This is an interesting idea. Could you give an example of an ancient state that made no claims of divinity, supernatural legitimacy, or divine lineage? When civilization emerged, complete with writing, agriculture, division of labor, etc., how did oligarchs justify their authority?

I don't need an example. If you understood what I was saying, a claim to divinity doesn't go against any of it. If a ruler makes a claim to divinity, it doesn't mean he's using the adherence to a particular religion to control his people, it means he's hijacking religion in order to move away from it and establish himself as the sole authority, and not the deity he claims to worship. The point is that the goal is always to undermine God's authority, whatever god that may be, and transfer it over to the secular ruler. A secular ruler cannot rule absolutely if people adhere to and recognize an authority above them.

The Catholic Church of the middle ages was a rather ingenious example of a state that masqueraded as being under the authority of God, and yet the people were never able to directly receive that authority except through the church. Pretty tricky if you ask me.

Another important point is that making claims to divinity is not the same as adhering to a religion supposedly authored by a deity that transcends humanity. The state always sought to make itself the sole authority. That can be done either by hijacking religious establishments like the Catholic Church and claiming that it was the sole means through which God's commands could be received (thus giving itself the power to arbitrarily make claims of authority and pass them off as God's commands), or by claiming oneself directly as a deity and thereby directly establishing oneself as an absolute authority.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

It's more of a comparative advantage debate than a quest for an ideal. The state is a savage and barbaric institution that really just needs to be outgrown. before it kills us all. 6,000 years on the road to nowhere, it's WAAAAY past time to try out some civilized other alternatives.

And I don't think anyone would argue that it would be better to have a state than it would to be able to live without it. Everyone agrees that it would be better to live without the state if it were possible. The point is that it's not possible.

 

[fisharmor]

I don't think anarchists realize how bad things could be without government.

First, you missed the part where it was explained that no anarchist is calling for no government.

Second, This was already addressed in this thread.

 

[otherone]

A secular ruler cannot rule absolutely if people adhere to and recognize an authority above them.

In order for a "secular" ruler to "hijack" divine authority, there has to be a religion to begin with. hence, my original statement:
Organized religion was required for the creation of the state
.
Please provide an example of an ancient state whose oligarchs did not "hijack" divine authority?

 

[fisharmor]

Please provide an example of an ancient state whose oligarchs did not "hijack" divine authority?

I'd actually settle for a modern example.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

In order for a "secular" ruler to "hijack" divine authority, there has to be a religion to begin with. hence, my original statement:
Organized religion was required for the creation of the state
.
Please provide an example of an ancient state whose oligarchs did not "hijack" divine authority?

Well, religion has been natural to homo sapien sapien for thousands of years...it doesn't seem a good indictment of religion because rulers tend to be good at hijacking it. They're also good at hijacking media and other institutions...

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I am approve

Abolitionists complained about slavery without ever providing a solution to the cotton picking problem

 

[Ronin Truth]

"Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be."

 

[heavenlyboy34]

"Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be."

What is this out of context, unattributed quote supposed to prove? How does the author account for the very effective control of the masses held by the atheist Soviets?

 

[William Tell]

[h=2]Anarchism is more of a complaint than a solution[/h]

It really is, I see anarchists bash voting and such things all the time. But never give solutions, it's all complaining and whining all the time. Don't get me wrong, I would shed no tears if the Gov disappeared tomorrow, but anarchists for the most part are not working towards that in any practicable way.

 

[Ronin Truth]

What is this out of context, unattributed quote supposed to prove? How does the author account for the very effective control of the masses held by the atheist Soviets?

The soviets theology was Communism, the gospel "Das Kapital" written by Saint Karl. Their politics was the same. It's simpler for simpler minds. At the end folks just walked away.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

It really is, I see anarchists bash voting and such things all the time. But never give solutions, it's all complaining and whining all the time. Don't get me wrong, I would shed no tears if the Gov disappeared tomorrow, but anarchists for the most part are not working towards that in any practicable way.

Then you haven't read a significant amount of anarchist literature. They deal with solutions all the friggin' time.

 

[Ronin Truth]

It really is, I see anarchists bash voting and such things all the time. But never give solutions, it's all complaining and whining all the time. Don't get me wrong, I would shed no tears if the Gov disappeared tomorrow, but anarchists for the most part are not working towards that in any practicable way.

I have no solution for cancer or Alzheimer's, etc. either. Should I stop bashing those too.

 

[William Tell]

Then you haven't read a significant amount of anarchist literature. They deal with solutions all the friggin' time.

I have read plenty of their BS, hardly any of the ones on the internet have any real short term solutions or projects. They seem to just eat popcorn and smoke weed, while watching police brutality videos

I sympathize with them, I really do. But lets get something done dang it!

 

[William Tell]

I have no solution for cancer or Alzheimer's, etc. either. Should I stop bashing those too.

Up to you, I think spending hours and hours saying: Curse you Cancer!!!!!!

Is a waste of time. Again, I don't like cancer, but whining does not make it go away.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The soviets theology was Communism, the gospel "Das Kapital" written by Saint Karl. Their politics was the same. It's simpler for simpler minds.

Communism isn't a theology. Especially as the Soviets practiced it ("Scientific Socialism" aimed at Communism with various multi-year plans). After the Revolution, prominent religious figures were martyred and Universal Atheism became official policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

If you want to spin atheism as a religion, okay...but the atheists on RPFs are going to get cranky.

It has been said that Statism is a religion. There's a bit of truth to it, but really it only borrows the cult aspects of religion.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I have read plenty of their BS, hardly any of the ones on the internet have any real short term solutions or projects. They seem to just eat popcorn and smoke weed, while watching police brutality videos

I sympathize with them, I really do. But lets get something done dang it!

If that's all you know, then you haven't read "plenty". You've read a few blogs and maybe watched a few youtube videos. Rothbard's system building was/is something minarchists can only aspire to, and other anarchists and voluntaryists have covered every objection uttered by minarchists. Minarchists just don't like to read except for very short and simple things like the Constitution and the Federalist.

 

[William Tell]

Communism isn't a theology.

I think it is

[SIZE=+2] ARE Americans practicing Communism? [/SIZE] Read the 10 Planks of The Communist Manifesto to discover the truth and learn how to know your enemy...
Karl Marx describes in his communist manifesto, the ten steps necessary to destroy a free enterprise system and replace it with a system of omnipotent government power, so as to effect a communist socialist state. Those ten steps are known as the Ten Planks of The Communist Manifesto… The following brief presents the original ten planks within the Communist Manifesto written by Karl Marx in 1848, along with the American adopted counterpart for each of the planks. From comparison it's clear MOST Americans have by myths, fraud and deception under the color of law by their own politicians in both the Republican and Democratic and parties, been transformed into Communists.
Another thing to remember, Karl Marx in creating the Communist Manifesto designed these planks AS A TEST to determine whether a society has become communist or not. If they are all in effect and in force, then the people ARE practicing communists.
Communism, by any other name is still communism, and is VERY VERY destructive to the individual and to the society!!
The 10 PLANKS stated in the Communist Manifesto and some of their American counterparts are...
1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Americans know this as misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Americans call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...).
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.
6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.
Americans call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) mandated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Americans call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture… Thus read "controlled or subsidized" rather than "owned"… This is easily seen in these as well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.
8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Americans call it Minimum Wage and slave labor like dealing with our Most Favored Nation trade partner; i.e. Communist China. We see it in practice via the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.
Americans call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136. These provide for forced relocations and forced sterilization programs, like in China.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Americans are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, but are actually "government force-tax-funded schools " Even private schools are government regulated. The purpose is to train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" . These are used so that all children can be indoctrinated and inculcated with the government propaganda, like "majority rules", and "pay your fair share". WHERE are the words "fair share" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Internal Revenue Code (Title 26)?? NO WHERE is "fair share" even suggested !! The philosophical concept of "fair share" comes from the Communist maxim, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need! This concept is pure socialism. ... America was made the greatest society by its private initiative WORK ETHIC ... Teaching ourselves and others how to "fish" to be self sufficient and produce plenty of EXTRA commodities to if so desired could be shared with others who might be "needy"... Americans have always voluntarily been the MOST generous and charitable society on the planet.
Do changing words, change the end result? ... By using different words, is it all of a sudden OK to ignore or violate the provisions or intent of the Constitution of the united States of America?????
The people (politicians) who believe in the SOCIALISTIC and COMMUNISTIC concepts, especially those who pass more and more laws implementing these slavery ideas, are traitors to their oath of office and to the Constitution of the united States of America... KNOW YOUR ENEMY ...Remove the enemy from within and from among us.
http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html