Americans Have Grown More Supportive Of Torture

Lucille

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Americans Have Grown More Supportive Of Torture
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/senate-torture-report-public-opinion/

The Senate report released Tuesday on the CIA’s use of harsh interrogation techniques during the George W. Bush administration comes at a time when Americans’ support for such techniques are at a high point. The report exposes new details about the agency’s secretive use of particularly brutal interrogation methods — including sleep deprivation, waterboarding and sexual threats — but it may not shift public opinion.

“Overall, I doubt it will change many minds, one way or another, as this issue is completely and intractably polarized,” said Charlie Dunlap Jr., a warfare strategy expert and Duke University School of Law professor. He added: “Don’t be surprised if the next poll shows that a sizable percentage of the American public would still support harsh interrogation techniques short of anything causing permanent physical injury in an extreme situation or especially in the aftermath of a serious terrorist attack by ISIL [Islamic State] or al-Qaida.”
[...]
Data shows that popular opinion on the use of torture by the U.S. government has subtly shifted since 2004, when Pew Research Center began polling Americans on the subject. Pew asked whether torture used against suspected terrorists to gain important information is justified, finding a majority of respondents (53 percent) said torture could never or only rarely be justified. But over the next five years, public opinion slowly reversed.

lyte-datalab-torture-1.png


By November 2009, a slight majority of Americans said for the first time that torture could sometimes be justified.

In Pew’s 2011 report — its most recent — 53 percent said the U.S. government’s use of torture against suspected terrorists to gain important information can often (19 percent) or sometimes (34 percent) be justified, marking a turnaround from 2004.
[...]
lyte-datalab-torture-2.png

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/12/09/the-united-states-of-torture/

The idea that "this isn’t who we are," as President Obama has said, and that we have to expose this so that it "never happens again," as Sen. Feinstein put it, is pure nonsense. This is indeed who we are: it is what we became once we acquired a global empire. Waterboarding is nothing new for Americans: we did it to the Philippine rebels when we decided to "liberate" them from the Spaniards. We did worse in Vietnam. What’s more, our proxy armies – the Nicaraguan contras, the Afghan mujahideen during the 1980s, the Syrian rebels today – have engaged in torture worldwide. And don’t forget the many authoritarian regimes we’ve propped up with aid, arms, and diplomatic support, while they torture their own people.

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/10/23/the-return-of-barbarism/

How did this happen? We return to the link between virtue and rationality – and the nature of evil as inherently irrational. A President who can hail a death as brutal and bloody as Gadhafi’s, a Secretary of State who can shriek her appreciation of such a revolting spectacle – these are not marginal exceptions to the general rule. Instead, these responses are reflective of America’s inner cultural and political rot – an America that long ago betrayed the Founders, ditched realism, and is now the complete captive of a debilitating madness.

As the Obama administration outdoes its predecessor in its relentless pursuit of empire, what we are witnessing is the return of barbarism, open and unashamed. It is the culmination of a trend that has been long in the making, and one that will go unnoticed as long as it continues – because evil, after all, is blind to its own nature.
 
So basically there's a hard cap of maybe 25% of people who are actually humane and decent... whom....

Its this kind of thinking that honestly makes me wonder if making me dictator would be a better solution to the world's problems than anarcho-capitalism... (Note: THis is mostly a rhetorical point, not a serious one.)
 
So basically there's a hard cap of maybe 25% of people who are actually humane and decent... whom....

Its this kind of thinking that honestly makes me wonder if making me dictator would be a better solution to the world's problems than anarcho-capitalism... (Note: THis is mostly a rhetorical point, not a serious one.)

More seriously, I think we need some serious virtue and ethics training before ANY libertarian system will actually maintain itself.
 
It's really very sad. Remember Palin's sacrilegious joke about how "waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists," and the applause and cheers that followed? That is America's "Christian" right. They boo the Golden Rule, cheer torture, and support endless preemptive war.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/such-language-is-not-helpful/

This is a matter of deep conscience. What kind of country are we? Is this what America is? Is this what we defend? The worst kind of barbarism? In particular I want to say to my fellow Christian conservatives: think hard about this report, and the idolatrous attitude that so many of us have toward America. We are America’s good servants, but God’s first. When our country has done evil, we must not hesitate to condemn it, and work to reform it. What we must not do is fall victim to an instrumentalist mentality that calls evil acts good because they achieved, or are believed to have achieved, desired results.
[...]
I think of the Americans who tortured those prisoners. I don’t know who is in greater danger of Hell: those who committed the evil deeds that landed them in the lap of the American torturers, or the American torturers. And you know, people, we are citizens of a democracy, and therefore all complicit in this.

I doubt the Lord is too pleased with its "Christian" advocates either.

jesus-torture-786120.jpg

He was tortured, too: Our Lord was "scourged," which means that He was turned over to the ministrations of professional torturers, before being sent to the cross. And of course, crucifixion itself was a method of state execution through torture.

Torture Is Also Big Government
Conservatives must be as committed to exposing the CIA's abuses as Obamacare's.
http://www.theamericanconservative....ans-torture-report-jonathan-gruber-hypocrisy/
 
Some relevant reading, I suppose. Conforms to FF's logic...

Efficiency no justification for criminal activity - Snowden on CIA torture report

A government could say that rape has a positive effect because we have a declining demographic crisis in the country... Efficiency has no place in the debate about right and wrong,” Snowden said, agreeing to the question about whether the US is in deep moral crisis.

The Senate’s report is a good step forward in terms of acknowledging the reality of what we have done. But this does nothing in terms of holding the officials who ordered this behavior and the officers who actually directly engaged in torture to account.”

Individuals actually lost their lives – they died – after being chained to a concrete floor in an unheated room, half naked. And rather than having the officer who ordered that behavior be prosecuted, he actually received a monetary bonus from the CIA of $2,500. These are things that leave a stain on the moral authority of the US government,” he said.
 
This is just a blog post. I'm sure he's working on a longer piece and I hope Grigg mentions the torture that goes on in America's prisons every day.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/americas-universal-torture-regime/

...Defenders of the Warfare State insist that such methods are a cruel but necessary tactic in a generational struggle against implacable foreign enemies. After all, “we’re at war,” supposedly, and foreign enemy combatants aren’t entitled to Due Process or the protection of law.

The same perspective informs the domestic “War on Drugs,” and similar forms of interrogation-through-torture have been employed by police on the basis of nothing more substantive than a hunch.
[...]
People who defend the use of torture against foreign “terrorists” generally don’t understand that they are subject to the same “protocols” here at home. Any American can be subjected to Gitmo-grade abuse at the whim of a police officer who – like the CIA’s hired torturers and foreign subcontractors – will never be held accountable for that crime.
 
So basically there's a hard cap of maybe 25% of people who are actually humane and decent... whom....

Its this kind of thinking that honestly makes me wonder if making me dictator would be a better solution to the world's problems than anarcho-capitalism... (Note: THis is mostly a rhetorical point, not a serious one.)


25% is in the neighborhood of the percentage of people who refused to obey "authority" during the Milgram Experiment, which was slightly higher at about 33%, iirc.

Maybe there is a correlation between decency and the belief in "authority", the latter of which would allow a person to avoid - in their own mind, anyway - personal responsibility? (I was just following orders).

Dunno.
 
25% is in the neighborhood of the percentage of people who refused to obey "authority" during the Milgram Experiment, which was slightly higher at about 33%, iirc.

Maybe there is a correlation between decency and the belief in "authority", the latter of which would allow a person to avoid - in their own mind, anyway - personal responsibility? (I was just following orders).

Dunno.

Hmmm... I could imagine a corrolation of some kind between refusing to obey during the Milgram Experiment and refusing to believe in torture now.
 
Uneducated, single ideology, and emotions can/will be used to condition and incite the masses to the most heinous of crimes... we live in a society conditioned to fuckover another human for profit, percentage, and/or gain. Oh how the bread and circuses of the coliseum proletariat mob,wrath on the cleverly created vengeance to inflict pain, agony, and death... the creation of a common foe has been usurped for millennia.


nif_bor.jpg
 
Torture. In a fictional show like "24" it stops an atom bomb going off in a "major" AmeriKan city. In reality it creates generations guided by retribution that will eventually light one off. And even then the generations guided through retribution will be enabled by those that created the whole situation.
 
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Newsmax has a piece on how 24 helped to normalize it.

CIA & Torture – All Americans Are Now At Risk When Captured
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/12/11/cia-torture-all-americans-are-now-at-risk-when-captured/
Torture-Program.jpg


Lost is all the defense of uncivilized and unethical behavior that should be criminally punished in the CIA Torture scandal, is the simple fact that human beings with a conscious do not act that way. It was agreed among nations that torture would be outlawed and the bottom-line is rather clear – no American is now safe for when captured they will be tortured in retaliation. The people who authorized this should be criminally prosecuted and the two psychologists in Spokane, Washington should stand trial for violating international and US law.

James Mitchell and John Bruce Jessen, the two psychologists, provided the CIA a list of tactics that ranged from facial slaps to waterboarding, deployed them against some terror suspects, and assessed the effectiveness of the efforts, according to a U.S. Senate report released this week that identified the two contractors under pseudonym. From their office in Spokane, these two disgusting individuals once worked with an Air Force survival school. They launched an extraordinary covert business that, after the 2001 terror attacks, offered one-stop shopping for a CIA wanting to use torture interrogation tactics. The CIA even turned to the two men in June 2007 for help gain to support their torture program with then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, according to the Senate report. In total, the CIA paid them $81 million before their contract was ended in 2009. At one point, in 2008, 85 percent of personnel in the CIA’s main unit for detention and interrogation were outside contractors, and most were employed through Mitchell and Jessen. They belong in prison for life – the ultimate torture.

In a 2003 memorandum, an Office of Medical Services official noted concerns about the contractor’s conflict of interest. The memorandum said that conflict was “nowhere more graphic than in a setting where the same individuals who applied an enhanced interrogation technique, which only they were approved to employ, then judged the effectiveness and detainee resilience, and implicitly proposed continued use of the technique.” All this was done at a compensation rate of $1,800 per day, which was four times more than the rate of interrogators not approved to use the technique, according to the memorandum.

The USA routinely tortures people in prison. This is how the Feds get their 98%+ conviction rate. The government tortured Higazy and compelled him to confess to owning the radio they claimed guided the planes into WTC. Higazy was then charged with lying to the FBI and was thrown into solitary confinement where many have committed suicide. The government told Judge Rakoff that Higazy had confessed so once again there would be no need for a public trial. Then, the airline pilot whose radio was left behind in the hotel in a different room returned. Suddenly, it was revealed that radio was not found even in Higazy’s room. Judge Rakoff demanded an investigation into how the government managed to get a confession from an obvious innocent person. They refuse to investigate themselves.

Torture does not produce reliable results. Someone will say anything to end the process. They Feds typically threaten your family. That is stage one. It is far too often effective. I myself was confronted with that situation. I then wrote a letter to Dorthy Heyl who was the SEC prosecutor at the time. The previous defendant the SEC used the same tactics removing all lawyers hung himself when he could not take it any more. I wrote to Heyl (who was not responsible for Fisher’s death) that if the government continued to threaten my family I would commit suicide to protect them, but I promised not to go so quietly. She told the others to stop.

The mainstream media never reports the number of suicides in prison. This too is neatly covered up. It is so pervasive it is inhuman. They threw Bradley Manning into solitary confinement prior to trial. This is all Psychological Warfare that rises to the level of mental torture that is excessive and inhuman treatment. Unfortunately, it is standard torture practices used in the Justice Department to ensure they get their 98%+ plea rate so they never have to go to trial. In my own case, they came out and told me to my face they did not want to go to trial. They offered two deals. I refused, so off to solitary confinement you go. They will do whatever it takes to break people. Solitary is no joke. The United States cannot win a criminal case anymore without torture. The low rate of those who go to trial is stunning. It is the Prisoner Dilemma in action.

ISIS has already announced retaliation. The arrogant position of the CIA must be dealt with. Criminal Charges must be filed and people must be placed on trial if the USA hopes to protect its own people.

If only the USG cared about protecting the American people.
 
Torture and Public Opinion
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/torture-and-public-opinion/

Paul Gronke, Darius Rejali, and Peter Miller sift through the evidence on public opinion and torture and find that there is much less support for it than many people assume:
Furthermore, when Americans are asked about specific techniques that Senator John McCain says have “dubious efficacy” and “risk our national honor,” public support is far lower. A table from our 2010 paper, reproduced below, shows that 81 percent oppose electric shock, 58 percent to 81 percent oppose waterboarding, and 84 percent to 89 percent oppose sexual humiliation, etc.

What it’s called matters – a fact not lost on the Bush Administration, which coined new phrases to call practices “not-torture.” It redefined the meaning of legal words and concepts, and described specific interrogation techniques as vaguely as possible. Our 2014 study documents that the euphemisms for torture have public support, but the acts of torture do not.

Even if most Americans weren’t as strongly opposed as the authors show them to be, there would still be no excuse for the torture that the government used, but it should make us very skeptical of arguments that claim that there was some broad, overwhelming post-9/11 consensus in favor of using torture that informed what the government did. The authors show that support for torture has gradually crept upwards over the last decade. That is, support for torture was significantly lower in the years immediately following the attacks than it has been in the last few years. So when Americans were all supposedly so traumatized that we would have endorsed doing anything, we were actually much less likely to endorse these criminal acts. Over a decade later, there are more Americans that support torture, but then that is probably because there have been constant attempts to normalize and de-stigmatize these acts and to claim falsely that they were important for national security.

The authors also add that “it would help clarify public attitudes if many American politicians would quit claiming – incorrectly – that torture is effective.” That’s probably right, which suggests that there might be much less public support for torture if there weren’t so many attempts to misinform and mislead the public into thinking that these abuses are anything other than appalling crimes
. People often take their cues on these issues from the political leaders that they trust, and at least half the country has been consistently misled and and lied to by the leaders of their party on this subject. Americans have been repeatedly lied to that these crimes helped make the U.S. more secure, and that deception has likely made public support for torture greater than it otherwise would be. As the authors show, Americans are still mostly repelled by torture when it is exposed for what it is. That is one reason why it was necessary and important to release the Senate report so that there could be no illusions about what had been done.
 
Noonan wrote about it, felt it was "flawed" and shouldn't have been released (blowback), but at least she's opposed to torture.

But she said this:

http://www.luxlibertas.com/a-flawed-reports-important-lesson/

Its overall content left me thinking of a conversation in the summer of 1988 with the pollster Bob Teeter, a thoughtful man who worked for George Bush’s presidential campaign, as I did. I asked if he ever found things in polls that he wasn’t looking for and that surprised him. Bob got his Thinking Look, and paused. Yes, he said, here’s one: The American people don’t like the Japanese.

It surprised him, and me, and I asked what he thought it was about.

He didn’t think it was economic—he saw in the data that Americans admired Japan’s then-rising economy. He didn’t think it was World War II per se—he didn’t find quite the same kind of responses about Germany. We were quiet for a moment, and then our minds went to exactly the same place at the same time: Japanese torture of American soldiers in the Pacific war. The terrible, vicious barbarity of it. When the war ended, American boys went home, and the story of what they’d seen, experienced and heard filtered through families, workplaces and VFW halls. More than 40 years later, maybe it was still there, showing up in a poll.

It was just our guess, but I think a good one. A nation’s reputation in the world will not soon recover from such cruel, systemic actions, which seemed to bubble up from a culture. You’ll pay a price in terms of the world’s regard.

Do you guys think there's something to that? Of course progs think she's way off base, and it polled that way because Americans are just simply racist.
 
I can see some very specific circumstances where it could be used.

If you have a known beyond any doubt terrorist leader in custody and you know beyond any doubt an attack is imminent, then I see the justification there. One known scumbag suffers a bit and thousands of Americans live, I think it's a tradeoff I can live with.

If you are waterboarding the guy who drove a truck for Bin Laden every day over and over, that is just plain abuse.


I guess I am in the rarely column.
 
I can see some very specific circumstances where it could be used.

If you have a known beyond any doubt <snip> bla bla bla

IF,, thus and so,,, you should be involved in defending against any attack rather than the proven futile method of torture.
 
I can see some very specific circumstances where it could be used.

If you have a known beyond any doubt terrorist leader in custody and you know beyond any doubt an attack is imminent, then I see the justification there. One known scumbag suffers a bit and thousands of Americans live, I think it's a tradeoff I can live with.

If you are waterboarding the guy who drove a truck for Bin Laden every day over and over, that is just plain abuse.


I guess I am in the rarely column.

*sigh* You're using the exact logic Dick Cheney is using. And here's how it works in practice. Commander in Chief "delegates" the torture authority to interrogators. Interrogators claim every time they torture it's a "ticking timebomb" scenario whether it actually is or not. There's no accountability whatsoever.
 
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