Alpha Atheist Turns "Agnostic"!

[Icymudpuppy]

I suppose it depends on your definition. For example, Merriam-Webster defines Agnostic as:



So using this definition, Agnostics are simply not engaged in whether there is or isn't a God or gods. Therefore, I suppose that you could say Atheists are strong in their non religious or spiritual belief; whereas, Agnostics simply don't care either way.

Webster's is using the common definition as it is used in modern american jargon. But that usage definition is not actually supported by the greek word roots Theo, and Gnosti, and the prefix "A". Dawkins being a proper British speaker is probably a stickler for the appropriate greek roots and their usage in Victorian English prose.

 

[otherone]

Otherone,

How do we know the things we know?

Good Gravy. I was raised Roman Catholic. I went through 4 grueling years of theology. If you can get me to understand how 'transubstantiation' works, I'll subscribe to your newsletter. Otherwise, your jedi-greco mind tricks won't work on me.

 

[AFPVet]

Webster's is using the common definition as it is used in modern american jargon. But that usage definition is not actually supported by the greek word roots Theo, and Gnosti, and the prefix "A". Dawkins being a proper British speaker is probably a stickler for the appropriate greek roots and their usage in Victorian English prose.

So are you suggesting that Agnostics are actually less spiritual than Atheists? I've always heard the opposite.

 

[otherone]

Here's something to think about... what do we actually know? Can we prove anything without a shadow of a doubt? Parenthetically, Gnostic, is derived from Gnosis or "the knowledge of spiritual truth". The only thing that is certain is uncertainty. We base what we know by things which we observe and measure. Things which were once believed to be constants can be manipulated by gravity for example. Our minds are only capable of thinking in limited dimensions.

Which, according to Augustine, proves the existence of God (for some reason). Brilliant!

 

[Sola_Fide]

Good Gravy. I was raised Roman Catholic. I went through 4 grueling years of theology. If you can get me to understand how 'transubstantiation' works, I'll subscribe to your newspaper. Otherwise, your jedi-greco mind tricks won't work on me.

I'm not trying to trick you man, I promise. We are talking about how we obtain knowledge. You said that I have assumptions. I am going to show you that you have assumptions too.

In your view, how do you obtain knowledge?


Edit: BTW, if Roman Catholics tried to teach you epistemology, I can understand why you aren't aware of these issues.

 

[AFPVet]

Which, according to Augustine, proves the existence of God (for some reason). Brilliant!

... and to play the devil's advocate, if aliens came here and demonstrated their technology, many would call them gods. Just food for thought. I am a spiritual Christian by the way.

 

[Icymudpuppy]

So are you suggesting that Agnostics are actually less spiritual than Atheists? I've always heard the opposite.

If the words were used correctly based on their greek roots. As it is, most people who call themselves "Spiritual but not Religious" also call themselves "Agnostic", while militant anti-religionists for some reason call themselves "Atheists". They haven't actually researched the meaning of the greek roots.

 

[otherone]

We are talking about how we obtain knowledge. You said that I have assumptions. I am going to show you that you have assumptions too.

When did I deny having assumptions?

 

[Sola_Fide]

When did I deny having assumptions?

Well, let's explore your assumptions.

How does a person obtain knowledge?

 

[otherone]

... and to play the devil's advocate, if aliens came here and demonstrated their technology, many would call them gods. Just food for thought. I am a spiritual Christian by the way.

This is similar to "Intelligent Design". Anything that can't be explained by current science proves the existence of a creator.

 

[otherone]

Well, let's explore your assumptions.

How does a person obtain knowledge?

how do my assumptions prove the divinity of the bible?

 

[Sola_Fide]

how do my assumptions prove the divinity of the bible?

How does your assumption that knowledge comes through the senses show that you can know anything?

Let's begin with the fundamentals first. How do you know the things you know, and how do you prove it with something other than what you assume?

 

[otherone]

How does your assumption that knowledge comes through the senses show that you can know anything?

How do you know the things you know, and how do you prove it with something other than what you assume?

Nothing has to be proven outside it's own context. If I eat lima beans, and determine they are foul, I can prove their foulness by trying them again. But lima beans are only foul in my view. I don't believe in objective truth. I believe in truth by consensus.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Nothing has to be proven outside it's own context. If I eat lima beans, and determine they are foul, I can prove their foulness by trying them again. But lima beans are only foul in my view. I don't believe in objective truth. I believe in truth by consensus.

"Truth by consensus"? So the world was really flat at one time? If the consensus of people is that A is non-A, does that make it right? How is that logical?

Anyway, let's get back to the fundamentals. How do you know something? How did you learn the word "lima bean"?

 

[WilliamC]

Not way. Without the axiom of Biblical truths, you can't prove anything at all.

Sadly enough, I am sure you're serious.

I am truly fascinated how others can see the world so differently than I.

Since it is not possible for two people to logically reason if they cannot agree on premises, and I certainly do not accept the bible as a premise, then so much for even attempting rational discourse.

So instead, poetry...

There are things that matter to me alone and not to anyone else
I sometimes wish it wasn't so but never have I felt
A total understanding of my life and what it's worth
Nor have I ever found out what my purpose is on Earth.

There are absolute uncertainties that are believed by very few
Yet we insist on acting as if all along we knew
The outcome that is waiting when we reach our journey's end
I wish I knew but I refuse to fool myself or pretend.

There are different ways of knowing none conclusive or complete
And it only goes for showing that despite all our conceit
We are only minor players that are cast upon a stage
In a story numbering billions we act out a single page.

There are spontaneous situations in which we all find ourselves
Disruptions of our daily routines which temporarily dispels
Our illusion of normalcy and the belief that everything's OK
When in reality all is chaos and we lose to entropy each day.

There are fearsome frightful symmetries that polarize our thoughts
Hateful ways of thinking in our minds we're often caught
In lies we have been programmed with by those that love us best
To outgrow our innate ignorance is surely our greatest test.

There are better brighter strangers and we meet more each day
Some will become our dearest friends most will go on their way
But every single person with whom we will ever interact
Is just another soul like you who is trying to make contact.

 

[dmo069]

Without the axiom of Biblical truths, you can't prove anything at all.

 

[otherone]

"Truth by consensus"? So the world was really flat at one time?

Awesome. So you do know the difference between 'ignorance' and 'truth'. In the absence of knowledge, deists insert God. We could just as easily ask, "how do you know the world existed prior to your being cognizant of it?" Or even, more practically, "why is it bad that people once believed the world to be flat?" "What difference does it make?" People believed in evil spirits, bodily humours, all kinds of stuff. The world is flat until proven otherwise.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Awesome. So you do know the difference between 'ignorance' and 'truth'. In the absence of knowledge, deists insert God. We could just as easily ask, "how do you know the world existed prior to your being cognizant of it?" Or even, more practically, "why is it bad that people once believed the world to be flat?" "What difference does it make?" People believed in evil spirits, bodily humours, all kinds of stuff. The world is flat until proven otherwise.

How do you know the world exists?

 

[otherone]

How do you know the world exists?

My experience of it. If you had asked me 'in utero', you may have gotten a different answer.

 

[Sola_Fide]

My experience of it. If you had asked me 'in utero', you may have gotten a different answer.

Great. Now I would like an answer to where experience is not a part of your argument for knowledge.

(Remember, you asked me to give an account of the Bible where the Bible is not a part of my argument for knowledge.)