Alice Gates is innocent

[amy31416]

I'm not for or against home birth, but my cousin had a baby this way about two months after I did. The baby's breathing stopped for a short period of time and she had to be massaged to get it started. I have no idea if it has anything to do with it, but her kid's almost two and still isn't talking, aside from "mama." (And there are other minor deficiencies that are kinda obvious, but not discussed.)

I had a really shitty hospital experience, so I can see why this movement exists but I'd go the hospital route again--I'd just do it differently.

 

[nobody's_hero]

WTF barring anyone with a medical certification from participating in a home birth?

Yeah that'll definitely show up on a 'top 10 dumbest laws' list.

Sorry folks, this birth is for beginners only. It sounds like a good ad, though:

Are you a trucker looking for an opportunity to bring new life into the world? A credit card salesman who always wanted to be stork? How about a gas-pump attendant by day, who dreams of being an OB-GYN by night? Come to Indiana. [disclaimer: anyone who has the slightest clue of what they're doing in a live-birth situation may NOT apply under penalty of law]

 

[Invi]

I wanted to comment on this when it was posted initially, but I held my tongue because I couldn't find the law in question.
Can you cite the state "code" for this? Because I can't find it, and what I can find it saying that ONLY nurses and OBs can be licensed as certified nurse midwives and can attend home births, not that those with medical training are barred from being birth attendants.
Your state doesn't license certified profession midwives, which I guess is why Alice is considered a "lay" midwife?

It's confusing. :-/
I know until recently Missouri didn't recognize CPMs either, which makes me pretty happy I had my baby in Nevada.

 

[FriedChicken]

Edit: forgot to include quote but this was intended to be a direct reply to Angel's most recent post in this thread.

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression, based on the police press release, that she declared the condition to not be serious (same as you're under the impression of) however ... heard the other side of the story and it seems the police cherry picking information and purposely leaving some stuff out. I don't want to go into details, I don't know that that would help or hurt the case.

Yeah, I'm finding that same info as you did in my recent searches. I'm thinking that there is also a reason nurse midwives aren't able to help - it might have to do with them needing a certain amount of OB backup and OB's won't back them if they're doing homebirths. However, I was under the impression 3 years ago that it was illegal for some reason or another when I did my research while my wife was pregnant with our first.

So yes. I'm a bit confused on what actual outcome is with the law. I've met several people who researched the matter and came to the same conclusion I stated in my op so I know it didn't come from no where - but I'm having trouble confirming that now.

Thanks for doing the research on your own (honestly) and for the paypal tips.

Please trust me in saying the police has done a poor job telling the story on this one. Alice wants things to be set straight but I'm not sure what all can be said that would be good for the trial outcome.

 

[FriedChicken]

What I know for absolutely sure is that the state only recognizes nurse midwifes and we actually used one for our first kid in a hospital.
I don't know that just because the state wouldn't recognize Alice as a midwife that it would be default make what she does illegal - if she is there at the request of the parents she may be no more than just a witness to the birth in the eyes of the law. I might be grasping at straws.


However I'm almost sure, but unable to confirm, that even though the state recognizes nurse midwives I think they are violating some law or another by assisting in homebirths. Perhaps the midwife would have to be acting as an arm or the hospital and it would be considered out of hospital patient care?

To my knowledge there are no nurse midwives who will assist in homebirths in Indiana ... I think that is for a reason.

If someone is a CPM (Certified professional midwife) I can easily imagine that being illegal (not that it should be) in Indiana because they're using a certification the state doesn't recognize.

According to the prosecutor, as I understand it, the entire case revolves around "Alice claiming to be licensed when she wasn't". The parents DID say they thought she was licensed, which I have to believe is a misunderstanding because I know the couple to NOT be liars.

However ... in the context they said that the authorities were [take this with a grain of salt, this is just my understanding] entertaining the idea of removing their 2 year old son from their custody. Them being under the impression she was licensed makes them a victim instead of an accomplice and the chance of them losing their son goes down drastically.

Also keep in mind that this was hours after their daughters death they were being interrogated [I think].

So yeah, stay tuned. I'll try to get to the bottom of the actual laws.

 

[FriedChicken]

I'm not for or against home birth, but my cousin had a baby this way about two months after I did. The baby's breathing stopped for a short period of time and she had to be massaged to get it started. I have no idea if it has anything to do with it, but her kid's almost two and still isn't talking, aside from "mama." (And there are other minor deficiencies that are kinda obvious, but not discussed.)

I had a really shitty hospital experience, so I can see why this movement exists but I'd go the hospital route again--I'd just do it differently.

Sorry to hear about your cousin and your hospital experience.
I'm just curious - has anyone tried to teach your cousin sign language? I was amazed at how fast my daughter picked it up - well before she could talk she communicated through sign.

If your cousin has other deficiencies the sign language might help too - it is very effective in some cases for engaging children who have downs syndrome, autistic and other things like that.


There are a lot of things hospitals could do differently. I think we will continue to have our kids at home but I know that if a birthing center opened in the area that would be the next best thing.

We went with a nurse midwife for our first kid and spoke with her a lot before choosing her. She was a very nice lady who was open to other things but due to the OB backup she was required to have her hands were tied on many things. There are a lot of differences between the experiences but one that stands out the most is that we learned 10x's as much about nutrition, exercises, ways to decrease the risk of tearing, etc. when we were doing a home birth.

There isn't any reason that education can't be given/used in a hospital scenario ... but it wasn't. Truthfully the seemed to be way less concerned about complications because they had the ability to just wheel her down to the C-section ward or just crank up the pitocim to speed up contractions if need be.

Their ability to immediately deal with complications, in my opinion, resulted in them taking far fewer precautions to prevent the complications -especially in prenatal care/nutrition/exorcise etc.

 

[FriedChicken]

Yeah that'll definitely show up on a 'top 10 dumbest laws' list.

Sorry folks, this birth is for beginners only. It sounds like a good ad, though:

Are you a trucker looking for an opportunity to bring new life into the world? A credit card salesman who always wanted to be stork? How about a gas-pump attendant by day, who dreams of being an OB-GYN by night? Come to Indiana. [disclaimer: anyone who has the slightest clue of what they're doing in a live-birth situation may NOT apply under penalty of law]

That is my understanding of the law. I don't think it is written in simple black and white - but I think that is the end result. I'm having a hard time finding my sources for what I said in my OP - but I've met several people under the same impression. I find it unlikely that we all came to the same conclusion falsely.

I'm starting to think there isn't a specific law stating that, but rather several laws that when they're all followed it leaves a medical professional participating in a home birth in violation of one law or another.

In my OP I said that if Alice were licensed she would have been put in prison 30 years ago for participating in home births ... I jumped the gun when I said that. The more I think about the more I think all that would have happened is her licensed would have been revoked 30 years ago.

But as I've said several times I have yet to get to the bottom of it.