Alan Keyes lawsuit on Obama birth

[BeFranklin]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80931
CHANGING OF THE GUARD
'Constitutional crisis' looming over Obama's birth location
Alan Keyes lawsuit warns America may see 'usurper' in Oval Office
By Bob Unruh
WorldNetDaily

Alan Keyes
The California secretary of state should refuse to allow the state's 55 Electoral College votes to be cast in the 2008 presidential election until President-elect Barack Obama verifies his eligibility to hold the office, alleges a California court petition filed on behalf of former presidential candidate Alan Keyes and others.

------
FYI: I have changed my mind slightly over this, and feel that some more research about what the Constitution meant by "natural born" when it was passed needs to be done.

Still researching - see rest of thread.

 

[hotbrownsauce]

Wow, Alan Keyes.... I guess I don't know the man well enough.

 

[werdd]

keyes is a crazy bastard, but i gotta support him in this endeavour.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

Alan Keyes seems to have gotten very unpopular and lost his senate seat when he started talking about Income tax being a slave tax... That EVERYBODY who paid it was a slave...

he either lost his senate seat to obama or obama was like the other senator in the state after keyes lost.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Saturday, November 15, 2008
[FONT=Verdana,][SIZE=-1]WorldNetDaily[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino,][SIZE=+2]Democrat: Obama's grandma confirms Kenyan birth[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino,][SIZE=+1]'This has been a real sham he's pulled off for the last 20 months'[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=-1]Posted: October 23, 2008[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]11:33 pm Eastern[/SIZE]



[SIZE=-1]WorldNetDaily[/SIZE]



Philip J. Berg
The Pennsylvania Democrat who has sued Sen. Barack Obama demanding he prove his American citizenship – and therefore qualification to run for president – has confirmed he has a recording of a telephone call from the senator's paternal grandmother confirming his birth in Kenya.

The issue of Obama's birthplace, which he states is Honolulu in 1961, has been raised enough times that his campaign website has posted an image purporting to be of his "Certification of Live Birth" from Hawaii.

But Philip J. Berg, a former deputy attorney general for Pennsylvania, told the Michael Savage talk radio program tonight that the document is forged and that he has a tape recording he will soon release.

"This has been a real sham he's pulled off for the last 20 months," Berg told Savage. "I'll release it [the tape] in a day or two, affidavits from her talking to a certain person. I heard the tape. She was speaking [to someone] here in the United States."


He said the telephone call was from Obama's paternal grandmother affirming she "was in the delivery room in Kenya when he was born Aug. 4, 1961."

Berg said he's pursuing the issue because of "the most important document in the United States," the U.S. Constitution.

"Nothing is more important than enforcing the Constitution," he said. "The Constitution's provisions are very small for qualifying for president. One, be over 35, and he is. Two, be in the country 14 years, and he has been. Three, be a natural-born citizen. He is not."

Obama campaign officials acknowledged the dispute by posting the image purporting to be a copy of his certification of live birth earlier this year. But they've declined to return WND requests for comment on the issues.

WND reported earlier this week Berg's claim that Obama has legally "admitted" the accusations included in his lawsuit, including that he was born in Mombosa, Kenya, by not responding to the allegations.

Berg filed suit in U.S. District Court in August alleging Obama is not a natural-born citizen and is thus ineligible to serve as president of the United States.

His lawsuit is demanding that the courts verify Obama's original birth certificate.

Berg has cited Rule 36 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, which states that unless the accused party provides written answer or objection to charges within 30 days, the accused legally admits the matter.

Since Obama filed only motions to dismiss the case and did not actually answer the claims, according to Rule 36, Obama has legally admitted he is not a natural-born citizen., asserted Berg, who has taken his information public through his website.

Berg addressed the existence of a birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser newspaper, featured on the Atlasshrugs2000 website, that suggests Obama was born in the city Aug. 4, 1961.

But Berg explained to Savage he believes Obama's mother was near the end of her pregnancy and unable to travel by plane, so Obama was born in Kenya. The family then traveled to Hawaii and registered the birth and submitted the newspaper announcement.

Besides Berg's lawsuit, several other court challenges also have been filed, including one in Washington state where petitioners are seeking to have the Washington secretary of state "verify Obama's eligibility" to serve prior to the election.

The claim states, "The 'certificate' that Mr. Obama has posted on his official Website is a 'Certification of Live Birth,' and not a 'Birth Certificate' from Hawaii. There is no indication on even this certificate as to specifically where the birth took place."

Berg also told Savage there is no information available on which hospital Obama's mother used in Hawaii.

The Washington state case also alleges, "Wayne Madsen, Journalist with Online Journal as a contributing writer and published an article on June 9, 2008, stating that a research team went to Mombassa, Kenya, and located a Certificate Registering the birth of Barack Obama, Jr. at a Kenya Maternity Hospital, to his father, a Kenyan citizen and his mother, a U.S. citizen.

When Jerome Corsi, senior WND investigator reporter, recently traveled to Kenya to investigate several questions about the candidate, he was told the records were sealed and would not be made available.

Though it hasn't given Berg the evidence he seeks, the Obama campaign has publicly answered allegations that the candidate was born in Kenya and faked his Hawaii birth certificate.

"Smears claiming Barack Obama doesn't have a birth certificate aren't actually about that piece of paper," says the "Fight the Smears" section of Obama's website, "they're about manipulating people into thinking Barack is not an American citizen.

"The truth is, Barack Obama was born in the state of Hawaii in 1961, a native citizen of the United States of America," the campaign website states. It also includes images of the Hawaii certificate bearing the name Barack Hussein Obama II.

The Washington claim states, "If in fact Obama was born in Kenya, the laws on the books in the United States at the time of his birth stated if a child is born abroad and one parent was a U.S. Citizen, which would have been his mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, Obama's mother would have had to live ten (10) years in the United States, five (5) of which were after the age of fourteen (14). At the time of Obama's birth, his mother was only eighteen (18) and therefore did not meet the residency requirements under the law to give her son (Obama) U.S. Citizenship much less the status of 'natural born.'"

Berg said he believed it also was a complication that Obama's mother divorced his father, married and moved to Indonesia for several years and Obama attended school there at a time when, Berg said, only Indonesia citizens were allowed in schools. Records that are available from Indonesia revealed Obama was registered in school as Barry Soetoro, and his religion was listed as Islam.

When Obama later returned to Hawaii, within the United States, there should have been a government document affirming his citizenship, but that also cannot be found. If that was not processed properly, Berg said, Obama would be in a situation even worse than not being a natural-born citizen.

"If he didn't go through immigration, he now is illegal and has been an illegal alien. He couldn't even hold the position of senator for Illinois," Berg said.

Further, Berg said he suspected Obama's college records may indicate he received aid as a foreigner, and that's why those records have been withheld by the campaign.

"I really think it's because it probably indicates he's from Kenya, or Indonesia, or received foreign aid," Berg said.

"I feel very confident saying these things," Berg told Savage.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78931

 

[Madison]

Arguing the fact that Obama's father is not a citizen is not going to get you anywhere. There is no way to prove the founders intended parents to be a factor and this is never going to sell to the American people in the time we live in and the number of people whose parents aren't American born.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Arguing the fact that Obama's father is not a citizen is not going to get you anywhere. There is no way to prove the founders intended parents to be a factor and this is never going to sell to the American people in the time we live in and the number of people whose parents aren't American born.

Under current law ( so called ), as I understand it, if a pregnant "criminal alien" from Mexico or elsewhere gives birth in the USA, the child IS a "natural born" US citizen automatically.

Is this correct?

 

[BeFranklin]

Arguing the fact that Obama's father is not a citizen is not going to get you anywhere. There is no way to prove the founders intended parents to be a factor and this is never going to sell to the American people in the time we live in and the number of people whose parents aren't American born.

Lol, then lets throw the constitution right out the door and give it to the masses of non-American children who don't care for our form of government anymore. That is a fighting issue.

There is no need to prove that what natural born means is parentage, that is a historic fact. *edit - actually, blackstone mentions both.

The question is do both parents need to be American, or can only the mother be American.

People keep saying that Obama is or is not a citizen because although his father is not, his mother is or isn't old enough and has/hasn't been in the country long enough and he was / wasn't born in the country. Ok, those are all criteria to be a citizen under statuary law, but that very fact implies he is not natural born no matter how you ask it or what the answer is, because natural born means it does not fall under statutary law and you don't need to be naturalized - you are already a citizen.

So yes, it is implying to me that not having both parents a citizen means you are not naturally born. That you have dual citizenship and the conflict of interest that the very qualification in the constitution was designed to prevent.

 

[BeFranklin]

Under current law ( so called ), as I understand it, if a pregnant "criminal alien" from Mexico or elsewhere gives birth in the USA, the child IS a "natural born" US citizen automatically.

Is this correct?

No, they are a citizen under the 14th Amendment - as it is currently interpreted - Ron Paul says its a modern wrong interpretation of the 14th, but they are not what was originally meant by natural born.

The slaves were not citizens until the 14th even though they were born here (something is operating other then where you are born by itself). The 14th created a different way to be a citizen, but it didn't change the natural born citizenship that was already in place, nor did it modify the presidential qualification of being natural born. It should be noted that after the 1st generation, the distinguish was by and large moot, except for modern interpretations of illegal imigrates coming over to give birth (bad interpretation of 14th) or presidential requirements (confusing the 14th with the natural born qualification of the original constitution).

 

[me3]

They don't follow any laws.

Helllooooooooo?

 

[BeFranklin]

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No one shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Born in - citizenship is by where you are born.
14th Citizenship is Jus Soli. Before this amendment, even though slaves where born in the united states, they weren't citizens. This did not eliminate Jus Sanguinis, it just added another way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

This is (edit - includes) citizenship by blood or inheritance, Jus sanguinis. If your parents are american citizens, you are. We still have this type of citizenship too - which is why you are a citizen if you are born of american parents no matter where. This is (edit - includes) natural born as in the original constitution. Natural born was already legally defined and well understood at the time of the passing of the constitution, and was passed on through our english / european tradition and common law (edit - which used both).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

The 14th amendment doesn't modify the natural born qualification. It makes citizens of where a person is born or naturalized. The presidential qualification does not require just citizenship but citizenship and natural born status and it does not allow naturalization.

The question is, is Obama a natural born citizen if only one of his parents is? Since this would make him a dual citizen, and would go against the original intent of the constitution, I'd guess no. Dual citizenship and conflicting foreign loyalities is what the framers had in mind when they wrote that clause.

 

[BeFranklin]

i.e.

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Constitution Preamble

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[AdamT]

they don't follow any laws.

Helllooooooooo?

qft

 

[BeFranklin]

Keep putting a light on it until everyone knows they don't follow the laws

 

[Roxi]

keyes is INSANE, watch his speeches, or at the debates hes totally and utterly INSANE

not only that but do you realize how powerful obama is? the certificate that was already produced, (and no i don't mean the first copy, i mean the second one that is featured on snopes) looks authentic, and if it isn't authentic is the best fake i have ever seen.... hes powerful enough to pull it off either way

not only that, but do you know what would happen if he didn't become president? or if he got shot? we would be in the next civil war, there would be major riots, and we would all be screwed.

 

[Pete]

Under current law ( so called ), as I understand it, if a pregnant "criminal alien" from Mexico or elsewhere gives birth in the USA, the child IS a "natural born" US citizen automatically.

Is this correct?

Google 'anchor babies' and you'll see a lot of material.

RP's position is that the term 'under the jurisdiction' of the US according to the 14th amendment is not there just to sound good, but means to be here legally. I agree.

 

[Truth Warrior]

keyes is INSANE, watch his speeches, or at the debates hes totally and utterly INSANE

not only that but do you realize how powerful obama is? the certificate that was already produced, (and no i don't mean the first copy, i mean the second one that is featured on snopes) looks authentic, and if it isn't authentic is the best fake i have ever seen.... hes powerful enough to pull it off either way

not only that, but do you know what would happen if he didn't become president? or if he got shot? we would be in the next civil war, there would be major riots, and we would all be screwed.

EXACTLY how the US Constitution FELL and DIED ( above ).

'Lysander Spooner once said that he believed "that by false interpretations, and naked usurpations, the government has been made in practice a very widely, and almost wholly, different thing from what the Constitution itself purports to authorize." At the same time, he could not exonerate the Constitution, for it "has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." It is hard to argue with that.' -- Thomas E. Woods Jr

 

[Truth Warrior]

Google 'anchor babies' and you'll see a lot of material.

RP's position is that the term 'under the jurisdiction' of the US according to the 14th amendment is not there just to sound good, but means to be here legally. I agree.

OK! Thanks!

Anchor baby is a derogatory[1][2][3] term for a child born in the United States to immigrants or other non-citizens, regardless of the immigration status of the parents.[4] The term refers to the supposed role of the child, as a U.S. citizen, in facilitating immigration through family reunification under the provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_baby

Born in Kenya? SORRY!

 

[BeFranklin]

Google 'anchor babies' and you'll see a lot of material.

RP's position is that the term 'under the jurisdiction' of the US according to the 14th amendment is not there just to sound good, but means to be here legally. I agree.

I'd have to agree that that is reasonable, else indian tribes would have had citizenship too.

 

[torchbearer]

natural born in these united states.
that is all that is required. besides the age limit.
14th amendment gave parentage birth outside the u.s. federal citizen status.
a federal citizen does not have the same rights as a citizen of a state.
the op has it backwards.