Agnostics/Atheists and maybe why they support Ron Paul

Thomas Paine... the very man who came from England to spread the idea of a constitution and a republic to america... was very anti christian.

"The Age of Reason" by thomas paine explained the plagerization of the bible and the similarities between all pagan gods and jesus.

some may say if there was an original founding father, Thomas Paine would be that man.
so the crap that america was founded on Christianity is a bunch of bull.

Just as there are many Christians and non-Christians here, I'm sure there were many Christians and non-Christians involved in the founding of our country. I don't really think the argument matters much one way or another. The constitution was set up to protect liberty, and individual rights, including freedom of religion -- so who cares who founded it? It's like Dr. Paul says regarding constitutional government -- in a constitutional government one does not really care if a leader shares a different ideology, because the constitution prevents them from implementing heavy handed policies based on that ideology. If the country was founded by 100% Christians or atheiests, it doesn't matter, we've still got freedom of religion.
 
Atheists/agnostics like Ron Paul because we're fucking smarties, just like the good Dr.

:D

And Christianity is plain dumb. Turn the other cheek? Please. Dumbest thing I ever heard of.

(please forgive my anti-christian trolling, i get bored. besides, you're supposed to be turning cheeks ;))

I don't know, I think turning the other cheek is a pretty good idea a lot of the time. It worked pretty well for Ghandi and MLK. Not responding in kind eliminates the main source of self-justification for an agressor, and the immorality of their actions becomes obvious to all. In addition, sometimes a "gentle answer turneth away wrath" I mean, if a 350 lb guy comes up to your window with a baseball bat, responding with agression and threats may not be the way to go ;). This kind of response can nip a lot of conflict in the bud. I think violence is still necessary sometimes to protect innocent people though ...
 
Agnostics/Atheists and maybe why they support Ron Paul

Because they, to a large degree, do not really understand who Ron Paul is, or how our government was formed and/or what our founding documents are based upon....i.e. Christian principles. They make Ron Paul out to be a libertine, rather than a libertarian.


A few quick points, and then I'll leave this thread to Amy and Yongrel:

1. I have been saying for quite some time (and taking a great deal of heat for it) that the atheist/agnostic element is taking over the movement to a large degree, and this thread proves it.

2. Ron Paul is not either an atheist or an agnostic, but rather a devout Christian:

I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator. --Ron Paul

3. Without atheism, Communism could never have arisen to murder millions, and without atheism this country and our Constitution could never be subsumed by an emerging godless world government.

4. We never had a chance of winning the Republican nomination (when over 50% of registered Republicans call themselves "Conservative Christians") while led by atheistic libertines at the national level.
 
Just as there are many Christians and non-Christians here, I'm sure there were many Christians and non-Christians involved in the founding of our country. I don't really think the argument matters much one way or another. The constitution was set up to protect liberty, and individual rights, including freedom of religion -- so who cares who founded it? It's like Dr. Paul says regarding constitutional government -- in a constitutional government one does not really care if a leader shares a different ideology, because the constitution prevents them from implementing heavy handed policies based on that ideology. If the country was founded by 100% Christians or atheiests, it doesn't matter, we've still got freedom of religion.

good point.
 
You're half right. I'm going to state this again:

A/gnosticism is about what you can and cannot know.
A/theism is about what you do or do not believe.

So one can be agnostic without being atheistic if one does not know that the supernatural exists, but chooses to believe that it does anyway.

Everyone, from the Pope to Richard Dawkins, is by definition agnostic because none of us can know anything about the supernatural.

The real question, then, is how honest we can be about it.


And you're also asserting the positive claim when stating that there is a god. If you do not provide any evidence, then I can claim without any faith that there probably is no god. Atheism is by defintion a lack of faith. I consider myself an agnostic atheist in that I would not know if there is a supernatural being (outside of the universe), but I choose not to believe in it due to lack of evidence. No faith required here.

I find the concept of agnosticism of limited use. I would even say that agnostics who are not atheists are unreasonable. About the only thing we can know for sure to be true, is maths and logics, everything about reality (anything empirical) is unknowable.

This does not mean that we cant know anything about reality to a reasonable degree of certainty. We can know what is a likely or unlikely in reality. We know gravity, sunrise are reasonably likely things. (The apple has fallen every time we have dropped it so it will most likely fall the next time we drop it. The sun has risen every day, so it will most likely rise tomorrow. Its not likely that the next time we drop the apple, it turns into a rabbit and runs away, that never happened. Its not likely that tomorrow, instead of one sun there will be three suns in the shape of mickey mouses head. Its possible but not probable.)

The same goes for religion and atheism. A agnostic will correctly say that we can't know anything about reality for certain. But most self described agnostics will also say, or at least imply, that god (pick any religious definition) is as likely/unlikely as the none existence of such a god. To a agnostic any theory about reality is equally unlikely. Evidence or the lack thereof makes no difference. This is where my "beef is" with agnostics. An agnostic would have to hold that the outcome of dropping a ball, one theory being that it would fall, another being it would turn into a rabbit, are both equally unknowable and unlikely outcomes.

The evidence against (any religious definition of) god is overwhelming, and there is no evidence for such a god. Therefore god is unlikely, and atheism is the most reasonable theory.

There are also some purely logical problems with a theory about god.. and therefore also with agnosticism:

A purely metaphysical god, a thing that is unprovable, is a god that can not interact with reality. If it could interact with reality, it could be proven, and we could have evidence. However, any such (purely metaphysical) thing that can not act as to prove it exists, by any reasonable definition, does not exist at all. Either god exists in reality, and it can be proven. Or it exists in metaphysics only, which means it does not exist in reality, that about as none-existent as anything gets. Saying that god is just metaphysical, is just another way to say that he does not really exist.

So in the end, God (the religious definitions) is not a reasonable theory. Atheism is the more reasonable theory. Agnosticism who say that both require faith (just another word for assumptions), fail to say that one requires lots of faith and the other very little. An agnostic who is not an atheist, unreasonably give both theories equal probability.

Cheers
 
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Why wouldn't they support Ron Paul? Why is it even a question? How is Ron Paul's or anyone else's faith even a consideration - since it is perfectly inappropriate and wrong for a political leader to govern according to their religious views or lack of them. We already have the principles laid out on which the country is supposed to be governed. This mixing up of religion and politics is wrong in every possible way. It contaminates and ruins both. Even some in the religious right are beginning to recognize this. Many people of faith have recognized this all along.
 
I find the concept of agnosticism of limited use. I would even say that agnostics who are not atheists are unreasonable. About the only thing we can know for sure to be true, is maths and logics, everything about reality (anything empirical) is unknowable.

This does not mean that we cant know anything about reality to a reasonable degree of certainty. We can know what is a likely or unlikely in reality. We know gravity, sunrise are reasonably likely things. (The apple has fallen every time we have dropped it so it will most likely fall the next time we drop it. The sun has risen every day, so it will most likely rise tomorrow. Its not likely that the next time we drop the apple, it turns into a rabbit and runs away, that never happened. Its not likely that tomorrow, instead of one sun there will be three suns in the shape of mickey mouses head. Its possible but not probable.)

The same goes for religion and atheism. A agnostic will correctly say that we can't know anything about reality for certain. But most self described agnostics will also say, or at least imply, that god (pick any religious definition) is as likely/unlikely as the none existence of such a god. To a agnostic any theory about reality is equally unlikely. Evidence or the lack thereof makes no difference. This is where my "beef is" with agnostics. An agnostic would have to hold that the outcome of dropping a ball, one theory being that it would fall, another being it would turn into a rabbit, are both equally unknowable and unlikely outcomes.


I agree that agnosticism can be at times a bit of a cop out - and the points you make regarding how nearly nothing is truly provable are right on the money. However, I don't think that agnosticism is necessarily unreasonable. One could believe that while God could exist and interact with reality, evidence for or against such interaction is very weak. Interaction does not necessarily imply practical provability, especially when one has limited knowledge.

The evidence against (any religious definition of) god is overwhelming, and there is no evidence for such a god. Therefore god is unlikely, and atheism is the most reasonable theory.

There are also some purely logical problems with a theory about god.. and therefore also with agnosticism:

A purely metaphysical god, a thing that is unprovable, is a god that can not interact with reality. If it could interact with reality, it could be proven, and we could have evidence. However, any such (purely metaphysical) thing that can not act as to prove it exists, by any reasonable definition, does not exist at all. Either god exists in reality, and it can be proven. Or it exists in metaphysics only, which means it does not exist in reality, that about as none-existent as anything gets. Saying that god is just metaphysical, is just another way to say that he does not really exist.

So in the end, God (the religious definitions) is not a reasonable theory. Atheism is the more reasonable theory. Agnosticism who say that both require faith (just another word for assumptions), fail to say that one requires lots of faith and the other very little. An agnostic who is not an atheist, unreasonably give both theories equal probability.

Cheers

I think there is a fallacy in the assumption that physical, mechanical reality makes up the whole of reality. When one starts from the assumption that only that which is mechanical is real, one very naturally would come to the conclusion that nothing that is not mechanical exists. For example, consider what your hypothetical evidence for "God" would look like. Presumably you would require such evidence to be recordable, repeatable under particular circumstances, communicable to others, etc. But, any repeatable, recordable, communicable phenomenon would be immediately classified as natural. For example, we observe bizzare quantum mechanical effects; effects that cannot be explained using our current understanding of causality. Are QM effects then considered proof against materialism? Of course not, nor should they be. Your definitions of reality and evidence preclude the existance of God before we even begin.

Science is excellent for the study of natural phenomena. It is an accepted tenet of scientific inquiry that supernatural explainations are inadmissable. This is a resonable requirement, because science is intended for the study of the natural. The problem is when people then suppose that all truth must be scientific. This means that without any reasonable basis, they've a-priori thrown out the spiritual.

The question is not whether it is possible to explain things using only the physical, but whether that is the best explaination for our observations, scientific and otherwise. The nature of man, especially man's consiousness, I believe indicates that the physical is not all there is -- it is of a qualitatively different nature than a purely physical system.

The first question is, is reality purely mechanical (by which I mean, purely material, and governed by deterministic laws and perhaps randomness). If the answer is yes, of course God does not exist. If the answer is no, then we may consider the question of God, starting from that point.
 
I agree that agnosticism can be at times a bit of a cop out - and the points you make regarding how nearly nothing is truly provable are right on the money. However, I don't think that agnosticism is necessarily unreasonable. One could believe that while God could exist and interact with reality, evidence for or against such interaction is very weak. Interaction does not necessarily imply practical provability, especially when one has limited knowledge.



I think there is a fallacy in the assumption that physical, mechanical reality makes up the whole of reality. When one starts from the assumption that only that which is mechanical is real, one very naturally would come to the conclusion that nothing that is not mechanical exists. For example, consider what your hypothetical evidence for "God" would look like. Presumably you would require such evidence to be recordable, repeatable under particular circumstances, communicable to others, etc. But, any repeatable, recordable, communicable phenomenon would be immediately classified as natural. For example, we observe bizzare quantum mechanical effects; effects that cannot be explained using our current understanding of causality. Are QM effects then considered proof against materialism? Of course not, nor should they be. Your definitions of reality and evidence preclude the existance of God before we even begin.

Science is excellent for the study of natural phenomena. It is an accepted tenet of scientific inquiry that supernatural explainations are inadmissable. This is a resonable requirement, because science is intended for the study of the natural. The problem is when people then suppose that all truth must be scientific. This means that without any reasonable basis, they've a-priori thrown out the spiritual.

The question is not whether it is possible to explain things using only the physical, but whether that is the best explaination for our observations, scientific and otherwise. The nature of man, especially man's consiousness, I believe indicates that the physical is not all there is -- it is of a qualitatively different nature than a purely physical system.

The first question is, is reality purely mechanical (by which I mean, purely material, and governed by deterministic laws and perhaps randomness). If the answer is yes, of course God does not exist. If the answer is no, then we may consider the question of God, starting from that point.

Yes, i am a materialist. I don't see how one could be anything else without making assumptions a priori. So, we know nothing about reality, but we have senses thru witch we can observe. We can think, and we can sense. We notice that these senses are connected to our thought. We start to see patterns.. we form assumptions about these observations. We are able to predict them (when we think, we can raise an arm and hit a wall, which hurts). We call what we can sense, reality. The assumptions that don't fit with what we observe, we modify until they fit. The assumptions we hold about reality, might not be the true reality. But at least they are a ever closer approximation. We have no other way of observing reality than our senses. We can make reasonable assumptions of nothing but the world that we can observe. We know that these assumptions are reasonable because we can test them against reality.

Now there may be more to reality than we can observe today. We may need better instruments to observe these (like those small particles that make up the atom). But the bottom line is, that everything that effects us, is also observable to us. Metaphysics says that there are things that effect us that can not be observed . I think this is a contradiction. Even if the methaphysical thing is itself unobservable, the fact that it can reach out and touch reality means we can see and observe the effects it sets into motion. That simple fact means that its can be observed and it is not methaphysical, its just hard to observe. We can form assumptions about when and how these motions start.

Like a stone falling into water, even if we did not see the stone wee will see the rings in the water, and we can make a reasonable assumptions that it was caused by something falling into the water. (If we live below the surface as a fish or something.. we can start to make reasonable assumptions about there being something above the surface..)

If something invisible keeps giving us a electric shock every now and again, we try and predict when it happens. Maybe it happens every time we think something bad. We would then make a reasonable assumption that someone can hear what we think, and that it does not like us being bad. We could make all kinds of observations and predictions about this being by observing when it chooses to interact with reality. But what if its behavior was not predictable, what if those shocks where completely random? Well then nothing we did would make a difference, and the theory that, a being caused all those shocks would be unreasonable, because the theory would not help us predict reality.

A methaphysical being that sometimes interacts with reality, can be observed thru the consequences of these acts. We can use logics to make predictions about when these acts occur. If the being is not logical, then it is random. a methaphysical being that is random, is really no different from a randomness itself. There is no reason to assume that randomness has any properties, that randomness is a being that can think etc.

So coming back to it.. we can have different definitions on reality. But the only one that seems reasonable is, reality is everything that affects us. Everything that affects us can be observed. Everything that can be observed, can be made predictable. Only things that do not exist, or things that are random can not be predicted.

Broadening the definition of reality to include things that can not affect us.. is pointless. There is no reason to speculate about thinks that don't matter one way or the other. A powerless god is no god at all. A random god is no god at all.

(Oh.. almost forgot, quantum mechanics can be proven and predicted. Its part of reality. There is after all a theory that is testable against reality. As I understand it the weird part about it, is that observing the state of the thing, changes the state of the thing. They have still managed to find a way to test this in a lab, and put it to practical use.)

Cheers
 
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Fighting Words?

Oh boy, your fantasy knows no bounds. First of all, this movement started centuries before Dr. Paul was born, so claiming he started it is more than a little ridicoulous, but obviously fact has no effect on you. Secondly, if as you state an entire nation were "following" as you so ineptly put it, we wouldn't be getting 10~15 percent.
Going for screw up #3, I don't have "atheist" antics, because I'm not, whatever antics I have are mine, not somebody elses. Lastly, your absolutely clueless about what I can or can not justify, and for you to present otherwise is testamonial of your own absurdity. Far as arrogance goes, not generally, but I'll make an exception in your case.
Even Ron Paul does not like to discuss religion in politics, and nobody's trying to "suppress" you or anybody else, it's just that YOU are trying to pawn off your garbage and claim the movement itself backs your position, which Ron Paul knows better than to do.
Not only do I reject your religion, but I ESPECIALLY reject your unabashed attempt to hijack the movement and put your brand on it. I've been a freedom fighter my entire life, as Ron Paul has, and will defend your individual rights along with any other US citizens. We've had 911 people try to claim this movement is theirs, religious nut bags try it, Israel nut bags try it, along with many others.
Fact of the matter is this movement is about freedom, and your thinking you can impose your brand on it is what deservedly gets you and your type in trouble.
I've only been supporting Ron Paul for about 18 years, and I don't need some mental midget coming along and telling me he sparked something recently and I come up short. Just because some have have been asleep for decades and finally woke up doesn't mean that either Ron or I come up short. Just so you actually do know something for a change, I'm 6'9", and I'd be willing to bet your considerably shorter.

I was referring to this "Ron Paul Movement" that has been taking place in this Presidential race. When I said that Congressman Paul inspired an entire nation, I was speaking hyperbolically. He has caused people from all around the nation to gather together and support him in his quest to restore the Constitution (Just recall the numbers at his rallies, speeches, and other impressive grassroots support.).

I labeled your antics as "atheistic" because of your implication that religious people aren't logical, which is a standard misconception of most "atheists." As one who is a Christian and loves to study logic, I find your assessment to be naive and offensive. I and many other Christians support Congressman Paul for probably the same reasons you or any other "atheist"/agnostic does, and I don't see how either of our religious views in understanding logic necessarily appeals to Dr. Paul's message of liberty and limited government. As a religious man, it has more to do with preserving the God-given rights, which our Founding Fathers acknowledged, from the tyranny of a power-driven government. Thus, I find your statement disingenuous.

I'm not trying to claim this movement as my own, based on my own religious views. As a matter of fact, I agree with you that this movement started way before Congressman Paul, and it started with the Puritans landing here in the 17th Century to escape religious persecution under a tyrannical government in Europe. You may not agree with that (and we can start another thread to discuss it further), but my point is that the fight for freedom in this country has always been propelled by religious people. I don't have to stamp my own "brand of religion" to make this movement legit. I'm simply following in the same paths of those religious people in our country's history who fought for the right to have sane government which would protect and preserve God-given rights. You may reject my religion (Christianity), but without my religion you wouldn't have freedom to fight for anything in the first place, at least here in these United States. That's hard for many people to understand because we live in a postmodern culture where God is being removed from nearly every institution and public arena.

I think it's great you've been supporting Congressman Paul for 18 years, but that doesn't mean that you're correct in stating the religion doesn't influence Dr. Paul. Sure, he may be uncomfortable discussing his Christian beliefs in public, but his religion does have major influences on his policy decisions as well as his political/economic philosophy. I've read many of his writings, too, and the thing I find interesting is that his views match up with many other libertarian Christians who write on similar subjects such as the economy, the nature of rights, national sovereignty, et. al. As a matter of fact, I recall Congressman Paul writing explicitly against secularism pervading our governmental institutions. It seems in those cases he wasn't afraid to attack humanistic dogma, which you probably would subscribe to as being legitimate in forming and reforming how our government functions (correct me if I'm wrong). So, I would say, even for Congressman Paul, religion plays a big part in this movement.

As far as you mentioning your height to me, I'm not quite sure what you're seeking to prove or if you're just trying to intimidate me. If it's a fist fight you want, count me out. I don't fight that way, unless I absolutely have to. The battle I fight is in the arena of worldviews and ideas, and I use the Cornerstone to crush the heads of giants who seek to dethrone God and terrorize His people with their own subjective, arbitrary, inconsistent, naive, and contradictory beliefs. Congressman Paul once said that he prefers to deal with the philosophical beliefs of the issues, and I agree with him. Our country is on the brink of destruction because men and women behave in ways which are influenced by their own philosophical beliefs about government, the family, what life is, and a host of other issues. I believe it is those beliefs and behaviors which need to be discussed and debated on our soapboxes before it becomes too late for us, and then we have to bring out the ammo boxes. So if you want to fight me, "big man," then let's do it with our words and ideas, not with fists and knives, and when the dust settles from our battle, I hope both of us will be on our knees in fellowship before the throne of the God of the universe, praying for Him to save our nation.
 
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I'm agnostic and remain neutral on religion. I'm going to vote for Chuck Baldwin so that can help illustrate I don't discriminate against religious candidates. But I also believe that religion does not have a monopoly on morality and that you don't have to be religious to recognize there is a battle between good and evil.
 
I'd rather read/listen/learn than join most discussions the past year or two. This forum has linked me to some of the most incredible videos and online websites for study/learning - if I start yapping, I'll miss out on some more learning/research. There's a lotta resources here, too, for off-the-computer stuff and ways to promote the message of Liberty.

It's kinda like a mini university here, if utilized in all the ways possible.


Ah, then, relevant to your "mini university" here is a most excellent "professor" (pun intended) for you to study under:
The Complete Works of Thomas Paine (Free and online... good stuff.)


And relevant to the specific topic at hand in this thread, Mr. Paine's final work:
Age Of Reason


Side note (from Thom Paine) to the young atheists out there (and to the Christians, Buddists, Agnostics, etc... old people too! From his Age of Reason introduction):

[...] You will do me the justice to remember, that I have always strenuously supported the Right of every Man to his own opinion, however different that opinion might be to mine. He who denies to another this right, makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it.

The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is Reason. I have never used any other, and I trust I never shall.

Your affectionate friend and fellow-citizen,

THOMAS PAINE



So be careful you don't "[...] make a slave of yourself to your present opinion."


Because in a few years (or decades), you will realize that you were NOT really as wise, nor as pure, nor as logical as you currently believe yourself to be. (Oh, and you're really NOT immortal or invincible either... but you'll find that out along the way.)

Cheers.
 
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Quick note to theocrat, and others, before I begin: There's enough room in the movement for Christians, Athiests, Agnostics, those of other religions, etc. I don't understand the motivation to try to convince people that "if you were a REAL supporter of liberty you would also agree with me on xyz". I also don't know what the point of trying to prove one's intellectual heritage to be supperior is, but I don't think it accomplishes anything good.

Now:
Yes, i am a materialist. I don't see how one could be anything else without making assumptions a priori. So, we know nothing about reality, but we have senses thru witch we can observe. We can think, and we can sense. We notice that these senses are connected to our thought. We start to see patterns.. we form assumptions about these observations. We are able to predict them (when we think, we can raise an arm and hit a wall, which hurts). We call what we can sense, reality. The assumptions that don't fit with what we observe, we modify until they fit. The assumptions we hold about reality, might not be the true reality. But at least they are a ever closer approximation. We have no other way of observing reality than our senses. We can make reasonable assumptions of nothing but the world that we can observe. We know that these assumptions are reasonable because we can test them against reality.

Of course, anything sensed through the five senses must be material in nature, since our senses are mechanisms that respond to physical stimuli. I submit that the human mind is not purely material, however.

I think it's actually fairly self-evident, but I'll briefly offer a couple examples of arguments for the non-materiality of human consciousness:

In theory, any purely mechanical or natural thing can be observed, and its existance proven, even if we are not capable of it now. Any such system is completely determined by the position and nature of its particles, because that is all there is. Consciousness is different, because it is by definition impossible to observe, or define based on the position of particles. Suppose one completely duplicated you, exactly replicated the position and nature of every particle in your body. It would be impossible to know for sure whether that being experienced self-awareness or not, despite having full knowledge of its physical nature. It's behavior would be indistiguishable from yours in a mechanical universe -- completely determined by the position and nature of its particles (until differing environments changed you and it, of course). If such a charictaristic exists, which cannot be determined despite perfect physical knowledge, that charictaristic cannot possibly be physical.

Along another line, in order to concieve of something it must either exist or be an extrapolation or conglomeration of things that do exist. There is no possibility, from a naturalistic perspective, of a truely original idea. Try to imagine a fifth dimension. We've got four dimensions to work off of, and it's still impossible. Where is the naturalistic source of value statements about things, statements about meaning, purpose, goodness, beauty, etc? We're hungry, we want food. We're thirsty, we want drink. We'd like to detect dark matter, in order to further our scientific understanding, thereby ensuring the species' survival, we'll use Einstein's gravitational lens effect. This is the extent of the human mind according to the naturalistic model. The fact that some now wish to banish those pesky value judgements from the human consciousness, and conform ourselves to the naturalistic model, does not remove the inconvenient detail that those things shouldn't really have ever been here in the first place.

If one does accept the premise that the human consciousness is indeed not purely mechanical, than the first place one would look for interaction with the non-material would be in the consciousness -- I submit that this is exactly what we find. Thus, our five senses can observe physical reality, while the metaphysical interacts with the conscousness (and perhaps, if one believes in such things, occasionally messes directly with nature as well, in a non-repeatable manner).


Now there may be more to reality than we can observe today. We may need better instruments to observe these (like those small particles that make up the atom). But the bottom line is, that everything that effects us, is also observable to us. Metaphysics says that there are things that effect us that can not be observed . I think this is a contradiction. Even if the methaphysical thing is itself unobservable, the fact that it can reach out and touch reality means we can see and observe the effects it sets into motion. That simple fact means that its can be observed and it is not methaphysical, its just hard to observe. We can form assumptions about when and how these motions start.

Like a stone falling into water, even if we did not see the stone wee will see the rings in the water, and we can make a reasonable assumptions that it was caused by something falling into the water. (If we live below the surface as a fish or something.. we can start to make reasonable assumptions about there being something above the surface..)

QM (with chaos theory) makes backing out physical causality in a deterministic fashion theoretically impossible for systems too sensitive or causal chains going too far into the past. This is just an example of an idea, but one way the consciousness could affect the physical state of the brain is by manipulating the wavefunctions of particles in neurons.

If something invisible keeps giving us a electric shock every now and again, we try and predict when it happens. Maybe it happens every time we think something bad. We would then make a reasonable assumption that someone can hear what we think, and that it does not like us being bad. We could make all kinds of observations and predictions about this being by observing when it chooses to interact with reality. But what if its behavior was not predictable, what if those shocks where completely random? Well then nothing we did would make a difference, and the theory that, a being caused all those shocks would be unreasonable, because the theory would not help us predict reality.

A methaphysical being that sometimes interacts with reality, can be observed thru the consequences of these acts. We can use logics to make predictions about when these acts occur. If the being is not logical, then it is random. a methaphysical being that is random, is really no different from a randomness itself. There is no reason to assume that randomness has any properties, that randomness is a being that can think etc.

I don't think this is true at all. If one experienced electro-shocks every time one lied, the physical source of those shocks would be investigated -- in the mean time theories would be proffered about the mental state of a liar causing the shocks in some way, etc. Finally, if the source was totally unexplained, it would be marked up to the "lying electroshock force" -- the last thing that would happen is that we would assume a non-physical being. The fact is, no physical evidence could really prove the non-physical -- which, as I pointed out, makes the complaint that "no physical repeatable evidence exists" for God rather empty, since evidence meeting these criteria is not possible even in theory (nor is evidence against possible). The evidence for God, if it exists, would be found in the human mind -- more specifically, one's own mental nature.

Of course, if one is not really looking for rigerous proof but merely evidence, and one is not resistant to the idea of the non-physical, some physical observations may be convincing. E.G, excellence of nature -- but such observations will always be explainable to those seeking a purely physical interpretation if at all possible.

So coming back to it.. we can have different definitions on reality. But the only one that seems reasonable is, reality is everything that affects us. Everything that affects us can be observed. Everything that can be observed, can be made predictable. Only things that do not exist, or things that are random can not be predicted.

Broadening the definition of reality to include things that can not affect us.. is pointless. There is no reason to speculate about thinks that don't matter one way or the other. A powerless god is no god at all. A random god is no god at all.

(Oh.. almost forgot, quantum mechanics can be proven and predicted. Its part of reality. There is after all a theory that is testable against reality. As I understand it the weird part about it, is that observing the state of the thing, changes the state of the thing. They have still managed to find a way to test this in a lab, and put it to practical use.)

Cheers

Certainly reality must affect us, and be observable. The question is, should we restrict ourselves to observations that are repeatable, communicable, and come through our five senses, or is one willing to admit evidence related to the nature of one's own mind? It seems to me that we do observe our own mental nature, and state, as well as observing through our senses. For example, according to the senses, humankind could be nothing but automata emulating intelligent behavior -- it is only by the observation of one's own mind that one realizes that is not the case.

And, QM may be understood to some extent, and is certainly observable, but it is fundamentally different in that it is not deterministic. The position and velocity of particles is actually in an undetermined state until observation -- no deterministic rule dictates in what state they will be under observation. This is not a lack of knowledge, but an actual element of randomness.

I didn't touch on this much, but I think we must also consider the definition of physical vs. non-physical. Science never truely explains anything -- it merely recognizes patters, and tries to reduce the number of unexplained phenomena by attributing as large a number of observed behaviors to as few phenomena as possible. Thus, we have a large number of behaviors attributed to "gravity", "electromagnitism", "weak or strong atomic force" etc, but none of these are truely explained. We seek a grand unified theory, so we will have only one unexplained force, but still that force will remain unexplained. Why do we not consider that force "supernatural"? Is the question only one of repeatability? A phenomenon which always occurs is natural, while one which does not always occur is not natural? We have a clearly defined area of unpredictability in QM, perhaps then certain behaviors of subatomic particles are "supernatural"? Or, perhaps we should include randomness in the physical, and reserve only non-random, non deterministic effects to the spiritual. The only non-random, non-deterministic decision making that I can think of is a mind.

So, are we really reduced to the idea that naturalism means there is no such thing as a "mind" in the real sense of the word, that can make real decisions, but only randomness and determinism exists? And conversely, a belief in the nonphysical means a belief in mind? If so, on what basis do we exclude the idea of mind, when we so clearly observe an example of it in our own consciousness? Why is that the odd man out, so to speak, in the pantheon of naturalism?
 
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Of course, anything sensed through the five senses must be material in nature, since our senses are mechanisms that respond to physical stimuli. I submit that the human mind is not purely material, however.

I think it's actually fairly self-evident, but I'll briefly offer a couple examples of arguments for the non-materiality of human consciousness:

In theory, any purely mechanical or natural thing can be observed, and its existance proven, even if we are not capable of it now. Any such system is completely determined by the position and nature of its particles, because that is all there is. Consciousness is different, because it is by definition impossible to observe, or define based on the position of particles. Suppose one completely duplicated you, exactly replicated the position and nature of every particle in your body. It would be impossible to know for sure whether that being experienced self-awareness or not, despite having full knowledge of its physical nature. It's behavior would be indistiguishable from yours in a mechanical universe -- completely determined by the position and nature of its particles (until differing environments changed you and it, of course). If such a charictaristic exists, which cannot be determined despite perfect physical knowledge, that charictaristic cannot possibly be physical.

Thanks for the reply.. you make some interesting point.. i have a few disagreements though..

You only assume that consciousness is different, that it cant be observed mechanically. CAT type brain scanning, while people do cognitive task, or while they feel feelings, has shown that many aspects about consciousness is observable mechanically. Also the link between "body" and mind has been reproduced to some extent. Impaired people who have gained control of computers. (I bet it feels completely natural for Hawkings to talk thru a computer. The computer voice box probably feels like part of him.) People who lost a limb.. there is this artificial limb that is controlled in much the same way as a real limb. The user just has to think about lifting his arm, and t happens. Pretty amazing stuff.

A perfect "mechanical" duplicate of me.. really is another me. If it behaves as if its alive and human. Then it really is alive and human. There is no reason to assume that something else needs to be added to the mix. Assuming so, is assuming without reason or evidence. If such a duplicate behaves as human as the rest of us. Then how can you assume that the rest of us has something that the duplicate does not have. How do you know that the rest of us has a soul, and that the duplicate does not. And if you don't know that other people have souls either, then how do you know that you have one yourself. The only reason you think you have one, is because you assume you have one. There is nothing contradictory about feelings, wants, personality, values and thought being mechanical. I could very much imagine that in the future there will be instruments (much like a cat scan) that can observe all those things.

If one does accept the premise that the human consciousness is indeed not purely mechanical, than the first place one would look for interaction with the non-material would be in the consciousness -- I submit that this is exactly what we find. Thus, our five senses can observe physical reality, while the metaphysical interacts with the conscousness (and perhaps, if one believes in such things, occasionally messes directly with nature as well, in a non-repeatable manner).

Well, i still don't see any reason why we have to accept that assumption.. there is no reason for it. Of course if we accept the assumption anyway, then we are pretty much free to speculate without boundaries. Anything we want to be true will be true. As we no longer have a away to spot and throw away bad assumptions, any and all assumptions will be as good as the next one. Our assumptions no longer have to correspond with the only reality we can sense. We are just guessing, like a blind and guessing how many fingers are being held up.

I don't think this is true at all. If one experienced electro-shocks every time one lied, the physical source of those shocks would be investigated -- in the mean time theories would be proffered about the mental state of a liar causing the shocks in some way, etc. Finally, if the source was totally unexplained, it would be marked up to the "lying electroshock force" -- the last thing that would happen is that we would assume a non-physical being. The fact is, no physical evidence could really prove the non-physical -- which, as I pointed out, makes the complaint that "no physical repeatable evidence exists" for God rather empty, since evidence meeting these criteria is not possible even in theory (nor is evidence against possible). The evidence for God, if it exists, would be found in the human mind -- more specifically, one's own mental nature.

Okay, i'll agree with that one.. a electro-chock to the brain from a metaphysical being, is really a contradiction. We have no reason to assume that the cause of the shocks are anything but physical. Also metaphysical thing that affects the physical, is really not metaphysical at all. Lots of physical things can not be observed directly, only indirectly. Like the black holes, we only observe them indirectly.. thru the effect their gravity has on other starts. That does not mean that they are metaphysical, it just means that they are hard to observe. Some of the small particles that make up atoms, have very little interaction with any other particles. That means observing them is hard, but they are no metaphysical. Maybe there are particles that have no interaction with other particles. But how is not interacting with reality, any different from not existing? I think its all the same. A particle that does not interact with anything, is no particle at all. There is no point in imagining such particles, as they can make no difference to us or our reality one way or another.

Certainly reality must affect us, and be observable. The question is, should we restrict ourselves to observations that are repeatable, communicable, and come through our five senses, or is one willing to admit evidence related to the nature of one's own mind? It seems to me that we do observe our own mental nature, and state, as well as observing through our senses. For example, according to the senses, humankind could be nothing but automata emulating intelligent behavior -- it is only by the observation of one's own mind that one realizes that is not the case.

Yes, we must restrict ourselves to the observable and repeatable. Anything not observable is speculation. Anything that does not behave in a predictable fashion is random. (It might not be truly random.. in that it could be predicted if we where a bit smarter and had a better theory. But then it really is predictable and not random at all). We don't see our own mechanical mind directly, but with the cat scan experiments and all.. we are beginning to see more of it indirectly. There is less and less room to speculate that the mind is anything but mechanical.

And, QM may be understood to some extent, and is certainly observable, but it is fundamentally different in that it is not deterministic. The position and velocity of particles is actually in an undetermined state until observation -- no deterministic rule dictates in what state they will be under observation. This is not a lack of knowledge, but an actual element of randomness.

I'm no expert on QM, few people are, and i think there is risk of drawing bad conclusions about reality, from misunderstanding it.

As far as i understand.. and i might be wrong.. but the "duality" is a lack of knowledge about the element, not some randomness property of the element itself. The fact that the state of the object will be destroyed when it is observed will mean that we have to assume the object in the beginning is in one of all possible states. Then we have to blindly interact with the object.. we can calculate statistically that some states at this point is more probable than others. And finally we observe the object, and we see what state the object actually is in.. and we can also calculate backwards from there what the state of the object was in the beginning.

I didn't touch on this much, but I think we must also consider the definition of physical vs. non-physical. Science never truely explains anything -- it merely recognizes patters, and tries to reduce the number of unexplained phenomena by attributing as large a number of observed behaviors to as few phenomena as possible. Thus, we have a large number of behaviors attributed to "gravity", "electromagnitism", "weak or strong atomic force" etc, but none of these are truely explained. We seek a grand unified theory, so we will have only one unexplained force, but still that force will remain unexplained. Why do we not consider that force "supernatural"? Is the question only one of repeatability? A phenomenon which always occurs is natural, while one which does not always occur is not natural? We have a clearly defined area of unpredictability in QM, perhaps then certain behaviors of subatomic particles are "supernatural"? Or, perhaps we should include randomness in the physical, and reserve only non-random, non deterministic effects to the spiritual. The only non-random, non-deterministic decision making that I can think of is a mind.

So, are we really reduced to the idea that naturalism means there is no such thing as a "mind" in the real sense of the word, that can make real decisions, but only randomness and determinism exists? And conversely, a belief in the nonphysical means a belief in mind? If so, on what basis do we exclude the idea of mind, when we so clearly observe an example of it in our own consciousness? Why is that the odd man out, so to speak, in the pantheon of naturalism?

Yeah, I think thats a reasonable statement.. there exists predictable things, random things (which might not really be random.. we might just not have come across the right theory that makes the predictable yet), and then there might exist things that do not exist in reality (but it makes no sense speculating about them).

We have such a hard time accepting a materialistic view on reality and determinism simply because we don't what it to be true. We like our romantic fairy tails and happy endings. Reality by comparison seems so cold.

Cheers
 
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Religion and politics do not have any buisness being together in this country. I think the USA would be a lot better off if people who did not care about religion where the only ones getting into office. That would probably exclude a good 95% of the population though.
 
not to stir up anything, although I know it probably will, but if my theory is right and God is simply just the principles, then each atheist and agnostic (including those in this thread) believes in God - they just don't know it. It kinda freaks me out.

I think about how many atheists/agnostics in various political ideologies who really, really 'get' the principles of liberty and freedom would literally die to protect those principles... and I got to thinking about it just being logical and even compassionate to want to protect the principles, as without them, life would be unsustainable and would eventually destroy itself.

It's sort of like we're all embracing God, as just a logical set of rules, that would lead us to a pretty awesome life here on planet Earth, if we just followed the logic and compassion of those rules.

It's what every hardcore atheist Libertarian probably will come to terms with... that day it dawns on ya that, all along, you were God's greatest defender. You had more faith in him, more of an understanding of him, and more love for him than some of your 'religious' brothers and sisters. God loves you for it, and he's gonna punk you like he punked me - I'm telling ya. You'll laugh about it, and feel pretty dang humbled by it. God's comical and rock and roll. He probably gets a kick outta watching the different 'traditions' in various churches and sects of religions devoted to him and just keeps hoping they one day really embrace the principles, the core of 'him' - ya know? God must sigh and chuckle a lot. He probably cries a lot, too. And I bet he LOL's and ROFLHAO's, too.

And he does it through us.

God's in each of us - Jesus, too. I think they've been trying to tell us that a lot louder lately. I think the proof is all around us - we better pause to listen.

It's not the God in the Bible - he's inside you, tap into him. Jesus did - sure, it got him crucified, but pretty much all of you who get those principles would die to defend them, too. They can't crucify all of us - heck, if we were around back then, they wouldn't have even achieved the crucifying of Jesus. Jesus really got the shaft with his grassroots.

I hope I don't get banned for saying that, but I sometimes get really angry about how Jesus got killed for just being a peaceful guy trying to explain the principles and help folks out.

Anyways... there's my ramble for the month of June.

Har, they booed Ron Paul at Christian debate when he mentioned the "Prince of Peace".

Oldest story in history, upset the power players and the status quo, you'll be crucified.

There is more to life than the here and now.

There is more to see than what is in front of our eyes.

To miss that concept is to miss an essential core of what makes humanity.

That is God.
 
Thanks for the reply.. you make some interesting point.. i have a few disagreements though..

You only assume that consciousness is different, that it cant be observed mechanically. CAT type brain scanning, while people do cognitive task, or while they feel feelings, has shown that many aspects about consciousness is observable mechanically. Also the link between "body" and mind has been reproduced to some extent. Impaired people who have gained control of computers. (I bet it feels completely natural for Hawkings to talk thru a computer. The computer voice box probably feels like part of him.) People who lost a limb.. there is this artificial limb that is controlled in much the same way as a real limb. The user just has to think about lifting his arm, and t happens. Pretty amazing stuff.

Cheers

The fact that consciousness affects brain activity (and perhaps even vice-versa) does not imply that consciousness itself is purely mechanical. And certainly the brain is highly adaptive.

A perfect "mechanical" duplicate of me.. really is another me. If it behaves as if its alive and human. Then it really is alive and human. There is no reason to assume that something else needs to be added to the mix. Assuming so, is assuming without reason or evidence. If such a duplicate behaves as human as the rest of us. Then how can you assume that the rest of us has something that the duplicate does not have. How do you know that the rest of us has a soul, and that the duplicate does not.

Ah, but that is the point. I am saying that it's impossible to determine one way or another. We assume that others are conscious, and you might be reasonable to assume that the duplicate is conscious, but one cannot actually be certain of any consciousness but one's own. This, despite absolutely perfect knowledge of the physical state of the system -- implying that the attribute is not purely physical.

If you knew that one object conducted electricity, for example, and I made a perfect duplicate of that object, you would know for certain that the duplicate would be a conductor as well -- the definition of conductivity is precisely a particular physical attribute, implying a particular physical response to an influx of electrons. That is, "conducting electricity" is defined as the movement of electrons through a material. Although one could make assumptions or guesses about a possible relationship between consciousness and physical brain states, consciousness itself (meaning self awareness) cannot be defined in this way.

And if you don't know that other people have souls either, then how do you know that you have one yourself. The only reason you think you have one, is because you assume you have one.

And yet, you have no problem assuming that your five senses report something akin to reality. Why is this assumption less valid than the recognition of one's own consciousness? In fact, I'd say that consciousness is even more self-evident, and more fundamental than the senses. I can easily concieve of a situation where all of my five senses have been consistantly feeding me garbage since day 1, yet how could one be "tricked" into believing one is conscious? If it's an illusion, and "I" do not exist, then who exactly is falling for the illusion?

And yet, this recognition, according to your criteria, does not qualify as evidence, since it is not observable by the senses, which according to the naturalistic view, are assumed a-priori as the only valid source of truth.

There is nothing contradictory about feelings, wants, personality, values and thought being mechanical. I could very much imagine that in the future there will be instruments (much like a cat scan) that can observe all those things.

Any instrument can only observe physical stimuli. They perhaps could obeserve the physical state of the brain of a person experiencing these emotions, but they could certainly never measure the actual experience - the experience itself is only observable in the person's own consciousness.

Well, i still don't see any reason why we have to accept that assumption.. there is no reason for it. Of course if we accept the assumption anyway, then we are pretty much free to speculate without boundaries. Anything we want to be true will be true. As we no longer have a away to spot and throw away bad assumptions, any and all assumptions will be as good as the next one. Our assumptions no longer have to correspond with the only reality we can sense. We are just guessing, like a blind and guessing how many fingers are being held up.

No, we would observe the nature of the mind, and consider that as well as the senses, in forming our view of reality. Why must we pretend that we are automata for any logic to apply?

Okay, i'll agree with that one.. a electro-chock to the brain from a metaphysical being, is really a contradiction. We have no reason to assume that the cause of the shocks are anything but physical. Also metaphysical thing that affects the physical, is really not metaphysical at all. Lots of physical things can not be observed directly, only indirectly. Like the black holes, we only observe them indirectly.. thru the effect their gravity has on other starts. That does not mean that they are metaphysical, it just means that they are hard to observe. Some of the small particles that make up atoms, have very little interaction with any other particles. That means observing them is hard, but they are no metaphysical.

And yet, the definition of a black hole is a particular physical configuration of particles (very very densely packed ones to be exact), and the various particles have their own physical definitions. No such definition exists for consciousness.

Maybe there are particles that have no interaction with other particles. But how is not interacting with reality, any different from not existing? I think its all the same. A particle that does not interact with anything, is no particle at all. There is no point in imagining such particles, as they can make no difference to us or our reality one way or another.

Of course the non-physical can affect the physical, and vice versa. E.g. your mind observes reality through the senses, and commands the body through the brain.

Yes, we must restrict ourselves to the observable and repeatable. Anything not observable is speculation. Anything that does not behave in a predictable fashion is random. (It might not be truly random.. in that it could be predicted if we where a bit smarter and had a better theory. But then it really is predictable and not random at all).

Do you not see the irony in this? Naturalism defines the only admissible evidence as observable through the senses, which can only sense the physical, and repeatable, which implies deterministic. Then, it complains that no such evidence exists for the non-material, or undeterministic? This would be like me defining the only admissible evidence as red light, and then complaining that you cannot provide any evidence that the world is not purely red.

We don't see our own mechanical mind directly, but with the cat scan experiments and all.. we are beginning to see more of it indirectly. There is less and less room to speculate that the mind is anything but mechanical.

I'm no expert on QM, few people are, and i think there is risk of drawing bad conclusions about reality, from misunderstanding it.

As far as i understand.. and i might be wrong.. but the "duality" is a lack of knowledge about the element, not some randomness property of the element itself. The fact that the state of the object will be destroyed when it is observed will mean that we have to assume the object in the beginning is in one of all possible states. Then we have to blindly interact with the object.. we can calculate statistically that some states at this point is more probable than others. And finally we observe the object, and we see what state the object actually is in.. and we can also calculate backwards from there what the state of the object was in the beginning.

No, it's much more interesting than this :). Check out the quantum eraser experiment for an idea, for example, at: http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/. When the photons' states are determined, the wavefront collapses, and the double slit experiment no longer produces diffraction. And, it is shown that it is not the method of observation that changes the results, but merely the act of collapsing the wave functions.

The particles really are in entangled, undetermined states, not just unknown to us, but truely undetermined. These particles behave differently when their wave functions are collapsed early, than they do when a system is run with the states still entangled. (This is how quantum computers work).

Yeah, I think thats a reasonable statement.. there exists predictable things, random things (which might not really be random.. we might just not have come across the right theory that makes the predictable yet), and then there might exist things that do not exist in reality (but it makes no sense speculating about them).
Cheers

Or, there might exist in reality things which are not predictable or random ;). Like, uh, you.

We have such a hard time accepting a materialistic view on reality and determinism simply because we don't what it to be true. We like our romantic fairy tails and happy endings. Reality by comparison seems so cold.

Cheers

Or, we have such a hard time accepting a materialistic view because it runs counter to what we know to be true about our own natures ... just sayin' ;)

Oh, and I'm curious as to your thoughts on the other argument, which I think you may have missed, I'll quote it here for reference:

"Along another line, in order to concieve of something it must either exist or be an extrapolation or conglomeration of things that do exist. There is no possibility, from a naturalistic perspective, of a truely original idea. Try to imagine a fifth dimension. We've got four dimensions to work off of, and it's still impossible. Where is the naturalistic source of value statements about things, statements about meaning, purpose, goodness, beauty, etc? We're hungry, we want food. We're thirsty, we want drink. We'd like to detect dark matter, in order to further our scientific understanding, thereby ensuring the species' survival, we'll use Einstein's gravitational lens effect. This is the extent of the human mind according to the naturalistic model. The fact that some now wish to banish those pesky value judgements from the human consciousness, and conform ourselves to the naturalistic model, does not remove the inconvenient detail that those things shouldn't really have ever been here in the first place."

Best Regards
 
3. Without atheism, Communism could never have arisen to murder millions, and without atheism this country and our Constitution could never be subsumed by an emerging godless world government.

I'd contest that without athiesm this county wouldn't exist. Some of our most revered founding fathers were athiests.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme
being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable
of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

-- Thomas Jefferson
(letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)

Or at the very least a deist.
"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point
of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there
were no religion in it!"
- President John Adams

Also I disagree that an agnostic is a cop-out of an athiest. Shall we look at the very definition?

Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of
which lies in the vigorous application of a single
principle. Positively, the principle may be expressed
as in matters of intellect, follow your reason as far
as it can take you without other considerations. And
negatively, in matters of the intellect, do not pretend
that matters are certain that are not demonstrated or
demonstrable.
-- "Agnosticism", 1889
While the formal definition doesn't match the general definition of 'not able to comprehend the face of god' it does lead to that conclusion.

Personally, following reason is usually straight forward enough, until you hit upon something that defies known reason, but you personally experienced. In my life I have experienced events that go beyond an engineering education to rationally explain. I could possibly jump to conclusions, subscribing it to a god, or I could say 'well my logic is not perfected so I leave the possibility of something beyond my ken to exist'. Recognizing one's limits is not a copout.

I find that Einstein had some very interesting thoughts on the subject. He was a true genius in so many ways.

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal god is
a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the
crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due
to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious
indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility
corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of
nature and of our own being.
-- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949


However one thing I have found to be true in the Ron Paul camp is that usually it does not matter what religion, gender, race, misc demographic - Patriotism comes from all corners. Asking why it appeals to one section may be educational, but it can lead to divisiveness pretty easily. What it boils down to is the simple question of
"Why do we all like Ron Paul?" We as the Ron Paul grassroots, his supporters. I think the answer to that would cross all classifications, something along the line of - Ron Paul's Honesty, Integrity, and following something that is dear to us all (The Constitution) makes Ron Paul a natural choice.
 
kpitcher. You do realize that Jefferson actually wrote his own version of the bible? Which pretty much stuck to the philosophies, and not so much the mysticism.

Thomas Jefferson believed almost exactly as I do. I also even use to consider myself a deist.

Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

This presentation of The Jefferson Bible offers the text as selected and arranged by Jefferson in two separate editions: one edition uses a revised King James Version of the biblical texts, corrected in accordance with the findings of modern scholarship; the second edition uses the original unrevised KJV. The actual verses of the Bible used for both editions are those chosen by Jefferson. Visitors should find the revised KJV text much easier to read and understand. Those seeking the precise English version Mr. Jefferson used when making his compilation can click on "Unrevised KJV text."

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
 
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