ryanmkeisling
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My favorite rifle is my winchester 243 woodsman. That thing is very accurate and a great hunting rifle. For home protection I would get a shotgun, more stopping power. IMHO.
Advice for buying a rifle
- Thread starter Demigod
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Revolution9
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I just bought a Marlin Lever action. Don't use flexpoint ammo with them. It will jam around the fourth or fifth load...dammit! I am getting a 22LR next and then some cowboy irons for pistols.
rev9
rev9
phill4paul
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Meh, I could start with a spear , axe , tomahawk , machete , bow , work my way up . If I got the SKS , right off the bat , may make me cocky and pre maturely declare myself Holy emporer or something ....
Don't have anything to add. Just yeah......
I got this old Winchester semi auto .22 LR , an even older Mossburg & Sons bolt action 22 LR with some killer sights and a newer Marlin Semi Auto 22LR and a really old , over and under 22LR /.410 , none have ever dissapointed .Never had a lever action , accept a 30/30 . I may be able to work on it for you and fix it , but not tonight , drinking a bit
Toureg89
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i had a friend (who, ironically, was "trained" by the US Army as a butterbar...) who negligently discharged a 762x39 round into the wall of a house i was renting, the wall being made out of bricks and cement.
the round never penetrated through, though, we are talking about a fairly think wall made in the '50s perhaps.
i don't think all building structures have a risk of being vulnerable to penetration.
PaulineDisciple
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I'd get a Saiga 308 $599 new, and either a Remington 870 12ga or Mossberg 500 12ga shotgun. Also buy some 25 round magazines for the Saiga. The Saiga for battle field superiority over AR-15 (5.56) and AK-47 (7.62) and the shotgun loaded with buckshot for home defense. This has got to be one the best way to spend $1000-$1200 for your intended purpose.
I am lucky if they give me the hunting licence for the SKS in a year.To be allowed to buy all of that I would have to become the president of the country or just move to the USA.
I might as well buy trowing knifes and learn karate
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PaulineDisciple
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oh, I thought you lived in the US. Let me know what you can buy in your country and I can modify my advice. In general terms by the largest caliber semi-auto that have large capacity magazines.
osan
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When I joined this forum I was against guns as it can be but in time I changed my mind especially with the situation getting worse by the day in my country.Because you Americans are definitively the most informed people about guns on the planet I am asking for your advice what to buy.
The rifle of course has to be be semi-automatic and should not cost more than 1000-1200 dollars.The gun is for protection but because the criminals here are armed as an army it will have to be something with a fire power.
I was looking around yesterday and found this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...8336/Bushmaster+AZ-C1516M4FT+223+16+FLAT+30RD this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...s_id/13233/Bushmaster+BCWA2F16+223+BAYFLS30RD and this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...s_id/69657/Bushmaster+CAR15+223+16+BSH+REDDOT I would love to hear your opinion.
EDIT:I am practically illiterate about guns ( except how to use them more or less ) so please provide links and write in plain English
Hooboy... Isd the crime really bad wherever it is you are? Where is that, BTW?
If you need real firepower against possible multiple assailants attacking you at home, I would very strongly recommend an M1A. They are wickedly accurate weapons and the 7.62x51mm round is very effective out to 600m. It is semi-automatic and can tak 30 round magazines, though I had trouble with those. Twenty round magazines work very well, however.
A good M1A may cost more than #1200, but IMO they are well worth the money if your life is depending on it.
An AR-15 in 5.56 NATO is good, but does not hit as hard. If your criminals are not "hardened" in terms of body armor and you are not anticipating shots greater than, say, 300-400m it may be a better alternative as the weapons are much lighter as is the ammunition. You can carry the rifle and a dozen 30-round magazines without too much trouble.
If you are not expecting many assailants, a Browning BAR in 300 Winchester Magnum may be a good choice. They are superbly accurate rifles and the round hits like a freight train and will seriously screw anyone within 1000 yards.
A question you need to answer is whether you need precision or quantity of shots fired as the foremost consideration. If you have 50 armed smegma crazies rushing your home, you will need lots of fire sent downrange in short order. That's just how it is when one is severely outnumbered.
Perhaps you can tell us more about the expectations - the typical modes of operation of your criminals.
osan
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If going 7.62x39 I would try to get an AR with an upper for that round. No offense but I would not want to hang my life on an AK. Reliability without being able to hit the broad side of a barn is not my idea of rational preparation for self-defense. The good thing about 7.62 is the universal availability and it is tossing a pretty good sized slug. Put that into a rifle capable of putting lead consistently on target at range is the smart bet. The AK is NOT that rifle. AKs are good for two things: suppressive fire and making noise - both valuable in open combat but precision is also important. If he's not buying a full auto AK then it lacks even that much virtue.
GuerrillaXXI
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I recommend the AR-15 in 5.56 for a rifle, especially if it's anticipated that the rifle will be used mainly inside 200 yards. Here's why:
- You can carry lots of rounds if you need to bug out. Make no mistake: with the right ammo, those rounds are quite deadly in spite of their size.
- Light rifle weight.
- Very low recoil allows for quicker, more accurate follow-up shots than larger cartridges.
- The best accuracy of any common, affordable semi-auto weapon. A top-notch Larue Stealth, for example, will get you hitting 4" targets out to 400 yards with match-grade ammo (unfortunately, the steel core military stuff is only good for about 2-3 MOA). If you ever have to shoot at someone who's shooting at you, he will probably have most of his body behind cover, so that kind of precision can be a life-saver.
- Body armor penetration is surprisingly good, especially if steel core ammo is used (see below). Even hollowpoints will go through current Level III-A soft armor, at least at close range (I've never seen a test at longer ranges).
- Reliability and durability are much better than commonly believed, though the rifle can't take the abuse of an AK or some other models. ARs have endured some brutal torture testing. You'll want to change out some parts after several thousand rounds, but this isn't difficult or expensive.
- Once you have one AR, you can legally buy other upper halves for it without any extra paperwork. These upper halves can be in other calibers, e.g., the massive and hard-hitting .50 Beowulf, which is compatible with most 5.56 NATO magazines. Or you could get one upper half with a chrome-lined 16" barrel for close-range rapid fire, and another with a 20" stainless steel barrel for precision distance shooting. Switching the upper halves takes about ten seconds and no tools.
A couple of pointers on ARs:
- One major caveat with the AR is that quality, durability, and reliability varies by manufacturer. A lot of the bad reputation ARs get for reliability comes not only from the early days of the rifle's use in Vietnam (when improper ammo was used and other bugs were being worked out), but from modern-day ARs that aren't made properly. High-quality rifles include those made by Colt, Larue, Noveske, Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM), Daniel Defense, and some others that aren't as well known. If you get a Colt, make it one of the LE models like the LE6920 (I own one of these and love it).
- If you want supreme accuracy, get a stainless steel barrel. If you want somewhat less accuracy but better barrel life, corrosion resistance, and ease of cleaning, a chrome-lined barrel is the way to go.
- You can carry lots of rounds if you need to bug out. Make no mistake: with the right ammo, those rounds are quite deadly in spite of their size.
- Light rifle weight.
- Very low recoil allows for quicker, more accurate follow-up shots than larger cartridges.
- The best accuracy of any common, affordable semi-auto weapon. A top-notch Larue Stealth, for example, will get you hitting 4" targets out to 400 yards with match-grade ammo (unfortunately, the steel core military stuff is only good for about 2-3 MOA). If you ever have to shoot at someone who's shooting at you, he will probably have most of his body behind cover, so that kind of precision can be a life-saver.
- Body armor penetration is surprisingly good, especially if steel core ammo is used (see below). Even hollowpoints will go through current Level III-A soft armor, at least at close range (I've never seen a test at longer ranges).
- Reliability and durability are much better than commonly believed, though the rifle can't take the abuse of an AK or some other models. ARs have endured some brutal torture testing. You'll want to change out some parts after several thousand rounds, but this isn't difficult or expensive.
- Once you have one AR, you can legally buy other upper halves for it without any extra paperwork. These upper halves can be in other calibers, e.g., the massive and hard-hitting .50 Beowulf, which is compatible with most 5.56 NATO magazines. Or you could get one upper half with a chrome-lined 16" barrel for close-range rapid fire, and another with a 20" stainless steel barrel for precision distance shooting. Switching the upper halves takes about ten seconds and no tools.
A couple of pointers on ARs:
- One major caveat with the AR is that quality, durability, and reliability varies by manufacturer. A lot of the bad reputation ARs get for reliability comes not only from the early days of the rifle's use in Vietnam (when improper ammo was used and other bugs were being worked out), but from modern-day ARs that aren't made properly. High-quality rifles include those made by Colt, Larue, Noveske, Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM), Daniel Defense, and some others that aren't as well known. If you get a Colt, make it one of the LE models like the LE6920 (I own one of these and love it).
- If you want supreme accuracy, get a stainless steel barrel. If you want somewhat less accuracy but better barrel life, corrosion resistance, and ease of cleaning, a chrome-lined barrel is the way to go.
Actually, 5.56 NATO can penetrate armor that 7.62x39 and even 7.62x51 / .308 cannot, most likely including the new helmet the military (and eventually the police) is expected to field. This is definitely the case with lightweight compressed Dyneema (ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene) Level III plates, which I'm pretty sure are made from the same material as the new helmets. This is because the 5.56 NATO has a steel core (the M855 or XM855 rounds), a very high velocity, and a small cross-sectional area. It's hard to find anything but lead-core rounds for those 7.62 rounds anymore, but M855 and XM855 are still all over the commercial market. 5.56 NATO also does better against steel than 7.62 at close range. Where 5.56 sucks is against glass and many common building materials. But I think punching through armor is more important.
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BAR in 300 Win Mag , sweet
, I need a little emoticon that dances for that .I would agree that at 250 yards or less , considering all factors , hard to beat...
Kotin
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That depends on the ak.. My Mac 90 sporter is much more accurate than any of my friend's ak's so you are probably right on average..
When I joined this forum I was against guns as it can be but in time I changed my mind especially with the situation getting worse by the day in my country.Because you Americans are definitively the most informed people about guns on the planet I am asking for your advice what to buy.
The rifle of course has to be be semi-automatic and should not cost more than 1000-1200 dollars.The gun is for protection but because the criminals here are armed as an army it will have to be something with a fire power.
I was looking around yesterday and found this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...8336/Bushmaster+AZ-C1516M4FT+223+16+FLAT+30RD this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...s_id/13233/Bushmaster+BCWA2F16+223+BAYFLS30RD and this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...s_id/69657/Bushmaster+CAR15+223+16+BSH+REDDOT I would love to hear your opinion.
EDIT:I am practically illiterate about guns ( except how to use them more or less ) so please provide links and write in plain English
There is no shortage of people telling you which firearm to buy and sometimes people end up purchasing based upon what others recommend. Democracy is the least effective to decide what firearm to purchase. Having a number of years experience in building rifles and helping people pick what's best for them, there are a LOT of considerations. Here are my top ten:
1) You've already decided the price range
2) You've already decided you want a semi-automatic
3) BEFORE purchasing any weapon, decide what SIZE is appropriate for you. If you are middle age and not a really stout person, I'd dismiss the larger calibers like a .270 and above (all .30 calibers)
4) I'd look in several stores before purchasing any rifle and see how many boxes of ammo are on the shelves. If you don't see a lot of ammo and / or the price is really high, that should influence your decision. A two hundred dollar rifle with ammo that costs a dollar a round is NOT as good a deal as a $500 rifle and ammo that costs .15 cents a round
5) Look to see what the costs of replacement mags are. Check for the availability of spare parts as well
6) Personally, I would eliminate all the commercial firearms (i.e. Remington as an example.) Mil spec weapons interchange with military issue stuff so spare mags and parts are plentiful, cheap AND the weapons are more durable
7) If you are going to use optics (scope, lasers, holographic sites, etc.) make sure the weapon you are considering will adapt to that and that the mounts are readily available and affordable
8) You may want to check out some manuals on the weapons you are considering, making sure you feel confident that you could easily learn how to field strip your weapon, clean it and do minor repairs
9) Decide which qualities are the most important. For instance, that AR is accurate while the AK family of weapons are more reliable. BTW, don't expect great accuracy from an AK and don't be deluded by hype, the AR will never be as dependable as the AK without sinking $1500 or more into one
10) Remember: if you buy based upon price alone, there is a more than 80 percent chance you will suffer buyer's remorse.
It's your money, so spend it wisely.
My personal preference is the Squad Scout M1A FWIW
I'm going to burst a lot of bubbles by saying this, but here goes:
Pump shotguns often suck for home defense.
Why? Because most people don't practice as much as they should.
A gun with low-capacity, heavy/bulky ammo, slow to reload, and requires racking a slide before EVERY shot? Doesn't sound like a great idea.
There is also the "it penetrates less" argument. Yes, various shotgun loads can penetrate less than typical handgun or rifle loads, but if you use something like birdshot, it might not even penetrate the bad guy you are trying to stop. (and don't give me any of that stuff about "I'll just shoot him in the face" with it.)
Buckshot still generally penetrates less than various other things, but remember it does still penetrate. Buckshot will still go through multiple walls of drywall/wood. If your house is made out of brick, over-penetration is less of a concern.
Pistol rounds will go through walls too. Don't doubt it for a second.
So what are we left with? What's the "best" home-defense round/weapon? Arguably, it's the .223. A "varmint"-type round is designed to break apart on impact. It may seem counter-intuitive that a very fast bullet will penetrate less, but that's exactly what happens with a fast-but-light bullet.
And while a low-penetrating .223 round may not stop the bad guy either, you at least still have 29 more rounds of it in the mag if the first one didn't work.
Having said all that... nothing is ideal. The .223 isn't ideal. For the home, maybe a handgun is better for more mobility, perhaps keeping your other hand free to use your cell phone to call for help or operating door knobs or holding your child's hand to lead them out of the house, etc. These are the kinds of things you do if you can. If a bad guy comes into your house, unless you have people to defend that can't get out, there's no reason to stay and no reason to try to take the guy on. You either leave if you can or barricade yourself if you can and call for help.
I'd generally rather have an AK in my hand than an AR, but inside a home where I'm worried about overpenetration? Not so much.
You can get 5.45 AKs, very similar to .223, but the different kinds of bullets you can buy for it is far less than what you can get for .223.
Are shotguns ok? They can be. They are powerful and relatively cheap. But few people ever mention the drawbacks, especially for pump versions. A Saiga semi-auto shotgun with a 20-round drum? That fixes a lot of "typical shotgun" problems. But a big ol' drum on your gun introduces other factors like size, and if you have a feed problem, you're not likely to be carrying a spare drum in your pocket. Again, things have tradeoffs.
Someone mentioned a .308. If you plan on being in battle from 200+ yards away, yeah, .308 might be a good option. Otherwise, maybe not.
If SKS are plentiful there, SKS are fine rifles. But it's a relatively strong round for inside a home. ...but then again so are most rounds. Again, tradeoffs. If you can only choose shotgun or SKS, I'd be curious if you can get a Saiga shotgun. Also, you can put bigger and removable mags on SKS if you want, assuming doing so is legal where you are. If you can legally mod that SKS, you can basically make it into an AK.
Personally, if I'm in that bad of an area, I think I'd want both a shotgun AND an SKS. Or, even better, five of each.
Oh yeah, if it's more about intimidation than anything, a bayonet on an SKS can be a bit intimidating. Also, I'd hate to say paint the stock black and ruin a pretty SKS, so instead take the wood stock off and put an "evil" black plastic one on there. Makes it look more intimidating. ...Which is why things like that have been banned at times in the U.S. ...because they "look" intimidating. Yeah, such laws are stupid.
Pump shotguns often suck for home defense.
Why? Because most people don't practice as much as they should.
A gun with low-capacity, heavy/bulky ammo, slow to reload, and requires racking a slide before EVERY shot? Doesn't sound like a great idea.
There is also the "it penetrates less" argument. Yes, various shotgun loads can penetrate less than typical handgun or rifle loads, but if you use something like birdshot, it might not even penetrate the bad guy you are trying to stop. (and don't give me any of that stuff about "I'll just shoot him in the face" with it.)
Buckshot still generally penetrates less than various other things, but remember it does still penetrate. Buckshot will still go through multiple walls of drywall/wood. If your house is made out of brick, over-penetration is less of a concern.
Pistol rounds will go through walls too. Don't doubt it for a second.
So what are we left with? What's the "best" home-defense round/weapon? Arguably, it's the .223. A "varmint"-type round is designed to break apart on impact. It may seem counter-intuitive that a very fast bullet will penetrate less, but that's exactly what happens with a fast-but-light bullet.
And while a low-penetrating .223 round may not stop the bad guy either, you at least still have 29 more rounds of it in the mag if the first one didn't work.
Having said all that... nothing is ideal. The .223 isn't ideal. For the home, maybe a handgun is better for more mobility, perhaps keeping your other hand free to use your cell phone to call for help or operating door knobs or holding your child's hand to lead them out of the house, etc. These are the kinds of things you do if you can. If a bad guy comes into your house, unless you have people to defend that can't get out, there's no reason to stay and no reason to try to take the guy on. You either leave if you can or barricade yourself if you can and call for help.
I'd generally rather have an AK in my hand than an AR, but inside a home where I'm worried about overpenetration? Not so much.
You can get 5.45 AKs, very similar to .223, but the different kinds of bullets you can buy for it is far less than what you can get for .223.
Are shotguns ok? They can be. They are powerful and relatively cheap. But few people ever mention the drawbacks, especially for pump versions. A Saiga semi-auto shotgun with a 20-round drum? That fixes a lot of "typical shotgun" problems. But a big ol' drum on your gun introduces other factors like size, and if you have a feed problem, you're not likely to be carrying a spare drum in your pocket. Again, things have tradeoffs.
Someone mentioned a .308. If you plan on being in battle from 200+ yards away, yeah, .308 might be a good option. Otherwise, maybe not.
If SKS are plentiful there, SKS are fine rifles. But it's a relatively strong round for inside a home. ...but then again so are most rounds. Again, tradeoffs. If you can only choose shotgun or SKS, I'd be curious if you can get a Saiga shotgun. Also, you can put bigger and removable mags on SKS if you want, assuming doing so is legal where you are. If you can legally mod that SKS, you can basically make it into an AK.
Personally, if I'm in that bad of an area, I think I'd want both a shotgun AND an SKS. Or, even better, five of each.
Oh yeah, if it's more about intimidation than anything, a bayonet on an SKS can be a bit intimidating.
Also, I'd hate to say paint the stock black and ruin a pretty SKS, so instead take the wood stock off and put an "evil" black plastic one on there. Makes it look more intimidating. ...Which is why things like that have been banned at times in the U.S. ...because they "look" intimidating. Yeah, such laws are stupid.