Abortion: Life and Death:

[EgwaTlvdatsi]

I believe this would be the appropriate place to state this and gather information about this.


I tried searching for the 'facts' but have not really found much, so perhaps someone can show me where these 'facts' are at and correct my thoughts on this subject.

It is my oppinion that life and death are just a natural part of life, and really never changes no matter what.

I presume (this is one thing that I would like to know the exact facts for. I can not find any information) that if the American population was looked at in the mid 1800's the percentage of deaths would be no different than now, in crimes against americans by americans. I know the Native wars, Civil war, and Mexican war would be an entirely different story, so I am not looking at those.

I am certain that if everything was accounted for, jealousy, anger, hate, car accidents, abortions, on job accidents, smoking, etc, etc, were added up, the percentage would remain about the same for the overall population.

If this is always in check, then legalizing abortions would really not be a great impact on our society...

So if you can find any facts stating this case for or against, please let me know, thanks...

 

[JimDude]

I think this entire post is preposterous. Even if legalizing abortion didnt have a effect on the population or society, how does that in itself justify it?

Lets say we legalized murder, and the popoluation continued to increase, does that make murder acceptable? The answer is NO>

 

[nate895]

Abortion was legal until the first kick up until the 1830s, when scientists discovered that the fetus had life (or their definition thereof) due to a new invention by Joseph Jackson Lister in reference to the power of microscopes. Abortion is actually a barbaric devolution, not a progressive thought.

We all agree life and death are part of the circle of life, that is an undeniable fact. That is no reason for the sanctioning of killing children before their birth.

 

[Ozwest]

I doubt that if abortions were made illegal, it would significantly change the numbers of terminations, just the methodology.

 

[nate895]

I doubt that if abortions were made illegal, it would significantly change the numbers of terminations, just the methodology.

I am sorry to sound so unforgiving, but if you kill your child before they even get the chance to breathe free, you deserve whatever happens to you.

 

[Ozwest]

I am sorry to sound so unforgiving, but if you kill your child before they even get the chance to breathe free, you deserve whatever happens to you.

My post was objective in its intention.

No reason to get hysterical.

 

[EgwaTlvdatsi]

Yes, I believe that, too...

However, although I wrote what I thought on the subject, I left my emotions at the door, so to speak. It was more of a curiosity to see if it was factual, I'm not looking for oppinions right at the moment. I want to wait until I have enough information before I start saying yay or nay...

I kind of figured that people would respond in this way, and I'm sorry for having not explained my reasoning for it...

 

[nate895]

My post was objective in its intention.

No reason to get hysterical.

I am not, I get that kind of statement all the time, if I was hysterical when I say what I said that in response, then I'd have died of a heart attack by now.

 

[Ozwest]

I am not, I get that kind of statement all the time, if I was hysterical when I say what I said that in response, then I'd have died of a heart attack by now.

You are supporting my position.

If you read my post carefully, I have not stated my personal moral position, but rather a hypothesis based on objective realism.

 

[nate895]

You are supporting my position.

If you read my post carefully, I have not stated my personal moral position, but rather a hypothesis based on objective realism.

What? Now I'm confused.

You stated that the manner of abortions would change, not the number. I assumed you meant they'd be less safe for the mother. I then said I didn't care either way. You then said that it wasn't necessarily your opinion that abortions shouldn't be banned and to not get hysterical. I said I wasn't hysterical. Now I am supporting your position?

 

[Ozwest]

Legalize or not, abortions will always be a part of society. An attempt to restrict abortions would raise not only the percentage of illegal and unsafe abortions but also the expenses of the procedure. A new law would be needed to tackle illegal abortions and further legal hassles would have no end.

In a perfect world, all life should be cherished. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world, and no amount of legislation will significantly alter reality.

 

[JimDude]

I doubt that if abortions were made illegal, it would significantly change the numbers of terminations, just the methodology.

Making something illegal tends to discourage the behavaior of the act being made illegal.

However, I believe you made this comment out of the concern that we would return to days of when woman went to mexico and used detergent to abort their babies. This is undeniably more dangerous, but just because legalizing abortion makes its safe and streamlined, doesnt mean we should do it.

For example, lets say we legalized murder, if we did I predict Murder shops would start popping up that would offer the service of killing people for you. This would make murder, cheaper, faster and more efficent. Today, it takes tens of thousands of dollars to hire someone to commit murder for you, thats if you can find one. If it was legalized, businesses would reduce its price and murder might only cost a few hundred bucks or less. But, all that does not and cannot jusifty murder, nothing does, except in self-defense

 

[nate895]

Making something illegal tends to discourage the behavaior of the act being made illegal.

However, I believe you made this comment out of the concern that we would return to days of when woman went to mexico and used detergent to abort their babies. This is undeniably more dangerous, but just because legalizing abortion makes its safe and streamlined, doesnt mean we should do it.

For example, lets say we legalized murder, if we did I predict Murder shops would start popping up that would offer the service of killing people for you. This would make murder, cheaper, faster and more efficent. Today, it takes tens of thousands of dollars to hire someone to commit murder for you, thats if you can find one. If it was legalized, businesses would reduce its price and murder might only cost a few hundred bucks or less. But, all that does not and cannot jusifty murder, nothing does, except in self-defense

+1, and I consider this murder. Stealing being illegal certainly makes it much harder and much less prevalent. Same with murder, and many other legitimately illegal activities.

 

[Ozwest]

JimDude,

My last post illustrates my position.

To equivocate the act of murder (attempting some rationality) with abortion, is accepting that women who terminate pregnancies are cold blooded murderers.

I can't wait for the tirade. Ahhh...

As unfortunate as abortion is, I do not believe legislation will improve the situation, but rather exacerbate a already sad reality.

 

[Monolithic]

making it illegal would just drastically increase the amount of unsafe abortions

 

[Ozwest]

If attitudes, and mechanisms can be put in place to assist women positively, so much the better.

But...

I do not possess the moral compass to enforce my will upon others.

 

[JimDude]

In a perfect world, all life should be cherished. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world, and no amount of legislation will significantly alter reality.

Ozwest,

I find it amazing how you underestimate the power legislation considering your a RP supporter. Laws have a tremendous effect on our behavior. People dedicate their lives just studying laws, billions are spent trying to influence law-makers into making laws. So, lets stop pretending that the number of abortions wouldnt go down if we passed a law against it. Abortion numbers would drop dramatically.

If you deny abortion is murder, then what do you believe a fetus is? A piece of property? Woman who commit abortion are murderers, assuming you believe that fetuses are people just like you and me.


As for the consequences of making abortion illegal, such as woman getting unsafe abortions. I fail to see what the problem is. If these woman voluntarilly get unsafe abortions, they've decided the risk is worth it. Just like any murderer who kills his wife or neighbor knows he's going to go to jail if he gets caught.

And I find this thinking to be rather protectionist. Do you believe its our role to protect woman from having unsafe abortions and keep them safe from themselves?

 

[Monolithic]

fetuses aren't people

lump of underdeveloped cells and tissue =/= human being

 

[JimDude]

fetuses aren't people

lump of underdeveloped cells and tissue =/= human being

Fetuses are growing people, just like little kids. except just a lot less developed.

Being underveloped or not fully developed doesnt mean you have no rights. If fetuses were left alone, they would become humans. Tell me, when does a fetus become a human?

 

[nate895]

fetuses aren't people

lump of underdeveloped cells and tissue =/= human being

If you would have read a previous post of mine, you'd understand that that is actually a barbaric thought from before they came out with powerful microscopes that determined that they had cells separately from the mother, making them their own creature, dependent one, but still its own being. The discovery of DNA, which is also separate from mother to child, would make it even more difficult to argue that fetuses aren't alive.