Abortion and Liberty?

[Smart3]

I'm 100% Pro-Choice. just like Barry Goldwater.

How could you be a Libertarian or a Minarchist if you oppose unconditional legal access to abortion?

As for the discussion of whether or not an embryo or fetus is human. No definition of human has ever included a parasitic organism. A living-breathing chimpanzee is more human than a "human" embryo.

 

[teacherone]

i call trolls on this thread...don't feed them...

 

[Smart3]

i call trolls on this thread...don't feed them...

Only 5 pages in, and we're already accusing people of being trolls?

 

[Alternative 336]

Yea, I have to say the quote "All pro-choice people have been born" sums it up. This whole trying to draw a line where life begins is nonsense. Even if you define it at an early stage, weren't you once at that stage? Weren't you human? Does more time make you human? What if these "cells" or whatever you want to call it were found on Mars, would it not be life on another planet? I think it depends on the morale of the person and as someone stated earlier "in a free society, murder is not okay". It seems to me that all pro-choice people want to pretend that it's not life so they can not feel guilty.

 

[Yieu]

Wow. A fetus is by definition not a "parasite" nor is it even comparable. I am shocked that someone would call it such! That is plain and simple bigotry and hatred toward humanity, also known as misanthropy.

 

[teacherone]

yawwwwwwwwwwnnnn...blah blah blah.

trolls working over time to divide. folks with one post trying to stir shit where it's already been stirred.

use the search engine trololos ... we've gone over this before.

 

[teacherone]

Wow. A fetus is by definition not a "parasite" nor is it even comparable. I am shocked that someone would call it such! That is plain and simple bigotry and hatred toward humanity, also known as misanthropy.

 

[Yieu]

teacherone, if you are believing that I "got trolled," then I have to correct you. I understand that was most likely a troll comment. But I have seen people that actually believe that, so I had to have it down on record that it is a misanthropic position, so that someone reading the thread wouldn't think we're all misanthropes for not defending life.

That's not called being trolled, it just needed to be said because there are real people out there who do hold those hateful beliefs, whether you believe they do or not.

 

[Smart3]

teacherone, if you are believing that I "got trolled," then I have to correct you. I understand that was most likely a troll comment. But I have seen people that actually believe that, so I had to have it down on record that it is a misanthropic position, so that someone reading the thread wouldn't think we're all misanthropes for not defending life.

That's not called being trolled, it just needed to be said because there are real people out there who do hold those hateful beliefs, whether you believe they do or not.

I do actually believe that. I'm quite serious.
It's not misanthropy if it's not breathing.

 

[Yieu]

I do actually believe that. I'm quite serious.
It's not misanthropy if it's not breathing.

If you really do believe that, and are not trolling, then I want you to understand that this opinion is factually and scientifically incorrect.

Even a zygote is human, so a fetus is definitely human. Fetuses do breathe, if that is your criterion. They breathe amniotic fluid. They also have brain waves, and a beating heart. Of course these all happen at different points in development, but you were talking about the fetus, and it does do these things at some point.

But the child is human from the very beginning stage of life: the zygote stage.

A fetus is an unborn human child. A zygote is an unborn human child.

Are you also one of those people that consider unborn children to be like "cancer" as well?

As a final note, I would like to reinforce through repetition that to think a fetus, or even a zygote is not "human" or is a "parasite" or "cancer," that IS the very definition of misanthropy. It is hatred of humans.

My wife even went as far as to stop debating on this topic because it is so absolutely ridiculous that anyone would even entertain such thoughts as human life being a "parasite" or "cancer." Not only is it scientifically unsound and incorrect, but it is hateful of humans in general.

It is useless to try to debate someone who has such a low and scientifically invalid opinion on human life, unless they change that opinion.

 

[Smart3]

If you really do believe that, and are not trolling, then I want you to understand that this opinion is factually and scientifically incorrect.

Even a zygote is human, so a fetus is definitely human. Fetuses do breathe, if that is your criterion. They breathe amniotic fluid. They also have brain waves, and a beating heart. Of course these all happen at different points in development, but you were talking about the fetus, and it does do these things at some point.

But the child is human from the very beginning stage of life: the zygote stage.

A fetus is an unborn human child. A zygote is an unborn human child.

Are you also one of those people that consider unborn children to be like "cancer" as well?

As a final note, I would like to reinforce through repetition that to think a fetus, or even a zygote is not "human" or is a "parasite" or "cancer," that IS the very definition of misanthropy. It is hatred of humans.

My wife even went as far as to stop debating on this topic because it is so absolutely ridiculous that anyone would even entertain such thoughts as human life being a "parasite" or "cancer." Not only is it scientifically unsound and incorrect, but it is hateful of humans in general.

It is useless to try to debate someone who has such a low and scientifically invalid opinion on human life, unless they change that opinion.

You're the first anti-Abortionist I've run into that's dared to claim science supports your position. What embryologists believe zygotes to be a "human child" ?
Fetuses do not breathe, they do not use their lungs (they develop very late). The point of my "criterion" of breathing, is that in Judaism - if it's not breathing, it's not human. The zygote, embryo, fetus & stillborns are therefore not human.

Your continued use of "child" demonstrates you are indoctrinated into your position. A child plays with dolls or figurines, not with bodily fluids.

31% of zygotes never make it to the womb, are you implying that billions of "humans" have died thanks to this? And you call me misanthropic!

a tumor is life also, should we not cure cancer?

It's not hatred of humans.

If my religious support of abortion offends you - good.

 

[teacherone]

If my religious support of abortion offends you - good.

tried to warn you Yieu.

 

[Krugerrand]

nm

 

[Yieu]

tried to warn you Yieu.

Yeah... must be a troll. None of it is logical. So, no use further debating. He even made the "cancer" comparison. No one in their right mind would make that comparison or call them a "parasite" (whether the unborn child be a zygote or a fetus). They are human, whether he wants them to be or not. They have human DNA, that means they are human.

And you're right, no religion condones abortion.

 

[Smart3]

tried to warn you Yieu.

Usually I don't respond to bigots. but why exactly have you not responded to any of my posts?

Yeah... must be a troll. None of it is logical. So, no use further debating. He even made the "cancer" comparison. No one in their right mind would make that comparison or call them a "parasite" (whether the unborn child be a zygote or a fetus). They are human, whether he wants them to be or not. They have human DNA, that means they are human.

And you're right, no religion condones abortion.

Gee. I would have thought Liberty Forums would have no bigots and would have no ethics-fascists.

Guess not. It's your loss for refusing to debate me.

 

[teacherone]

Yeah... must be a troll. None of it is logical. So, no use further debating.

not even a good one.

 

[playboymommy]

There is no liberty in forcing a female to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

 

[Ronulus]

There is no liberty in forcing a female to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

Liberty is all about personal choice and responsibility for yourself and the choices you make. If a woman choses to have unprotected sex while she is ovulating and pregnancy occurs. The problem isn't that we are not giving women a choice, the problem is that they will not accept responsibility for their actions and we are acting like abortion is just simply another choice for this woman to make, effecting only her life.

Why is it that once the child is born parents no longer have a free choice? If I no longer want to care for a child why can I not then have a late term abortion because I do not like the current situation I am in?

Then we get into people arguing that a fetus is not yet a life. WHO defines that? Isn't it odd that when scientists refer to finding new 'life' at the bottom of the ocean or some tropical place this new life may just indeed be a cell or small organism, yet it is defined as life. However when it comes to abortion, it is not alive because it's not breathing, or yet it is not human. When an egg is fertilized it has no other option, it will become a human. Once that fertilization happens the process of life has begun as those cells are becoming the only thing they can possibly become, a human life.

Now there are those that go extremely in the opposite way and then say "well are you going to say that jacking off is abortion". No, you can't because your not getting rid of an embryo or fertilization that is already on it's way to becoming life.

The problem isn't womans choice or her liberty at all. It's that they need to realize they made a choice to have unprotected sex and deal with the reprecussions of that. As a result we need to perhaps have better sexual education.

We also need to start taking responsibility for our actions. Instead of trying to play the helpless victim that the government has taught us to do so well.

 

[Yieu]

There is no liberty in forcing a female to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way... and I do not condone the use of force in any way (see previous posts), but there is liberty in allowing life, and there is no liberty in extinguishing life.

 

[Yieu]

Liberty is all about personal choice and responsibility for yourself and the choices you make. If a woman choses to have unprotected sex while she is ovulating and pregnancy occurs. The problem isn't that we are not giving women a choice, the problem is that they will not accept responsibility for their actions and we are acting like abortion is just simply another choice for this woman to make, effecting only her life.

Why is it that once the child is born parents no longer have a free choice? If I no longer want to care for a child why can I not then have a late term abortion because I do not like the current situation I am in?

Then we get into people arguing that a fetus is not yet a life. WHO defines that? Isn't it odd that when scientists refer to finding new 'life' at the bottom of the ocean or some tropical place this new life may just indeed be a cell or small organism, yet it is defined as life. However when it comes to abortion, it is not alive because it's not breathing, or yet it is not human. When an egg is fertilized it has no other option, it will become a human. Once that fertilization happens the process of life has begun as those cells are becoming the only thing they can possibly become, a human life.

Now there are those that go extremely in the opposite way and then say "well are you going to say that jacking off is abortion". No, you can't because your not getting rid of an embryo or fertilization that is already on it's way to becoming life.

The problem isn't womans choice or her liberty at all. It's that they need to realize they made a choice to have unprotected sex and deal with the reprecussions of that. As a result we need to perhaps have better sexual education.

We also need to start taking responsibility for our actions. Instead of trying to play the helpless victim that the government has taught us to do so well.

Well said. Abortion is not about choice or liberty; allowing life is about liberty. The choice was already made, as you said.