A Store Without a Checkout Counter? JCPenney Presses on with Retail Revolution

Re: Zoos...

Though I am not generally a theme park lover, I guess growing up around Sea World and Busch Gardens did at least expose me to people who knew what they were talking about. The Baltimore Aquarium likewise has several intelligent folks wandering around to answer questions, and genuine conservation efforts. While I was last there, we saw a gorgeous sea turtle who was missing a flipper and had obviously danced with a boat and lost. She was being fed in the giant tank and we were there watching through an underwater observation area :) I'm sure they also could have had automatic feeders, but instead they had divers in the water interacting with the marine life. That is definitely an instance where a human touch is an enhancement.
 
I totally disagree with the UN agenda conspiracy nonsense (parts of it) - this is really a great way that brick and mortar stores can compete with online stores. If you don't want to be tracked temporarily while you do your shopping, then don't go shopping - as simple as that. You are not being coerced into the invasion of your own privacy, this is still a voluntary choice. Just like how old technologies will start to wane, especially the unprofitable ones, normal methods of shopping will soon be deprecated. This is how capitalism shines and the best of the best will stick out.
 
do you mean when it comes to trading, there should be no privacy?

The information that retailers gather should be proprietary. If Target knows what my favorite brand of coffee is, there's no good reason they should happily share that information with WalMart or Kroger. The problem, if there is one, is the banking system tying all that information together via our credit and debit cards. I have little or no control over who knows what about me at that point.
 
so why do you care about the registers they don't use? what better use of space would they be for?

A space that generates income is preferable to one that doesn't. The trick , as I see it, is getting rid of those registers *and* being capable of handling the holiday crowds.
 
That's funny, because Roe v Wade was decided on the right to privacy.

There are more recent cases on privacy, such as Lawrence v. Texas. Ron Paul disagrees there is a right to privacy, see the article "Federal Courts and the Imaginary Constitution"
 
Yes, ideally, in a free market of which we do not have. Government is mandating the biometrics--drivers licenses all over the country.

The problem with all of this is they will get what they want, because Americans are impatient and want instant gratification.

This is why since 9/11 (12 years) we have seen a rapid descent of our liberties--so many people are willing to give up liberty, not only, for security, but for convenience. True democracy--51% want convenience while 49% are willing to be inconvenienced to guard their liberty. Democracy sucks!

Sure, but free markets are pretty much democracies. Look at video games. I'd be perfectly happy with my GameCube's capabilities. But other gamers weren't, so the market developed new systems. I would be happier if they made new content available for the GameCube format, but the majority of the market moved on.
 
There are more recent cases on privacy, such as Lawrence v. Texas. Ron Paul disagrees there is a right to privacy, see the article "Federal Courts and the Imaginary Constitution"

Yes, I don't think there's a right to privacy when you're in public. The Court basically made up a new right when they decided Roe v Wade. But I don't thinl the government needs to track us all the time. It's a huge waste of resources, and creepy to boot.

The whole concept of privacy is kind of 20th century. Before the Industrial age, there wasn't much anybody didn't know about their neighbors.
 
Yes, I don't think there's a right to privacy when you're in public. The Court basically made up a new right when they decided Roe v Wade. But I don't thinl the government needs to track us all the time. It's a huge waste of resources, and creepy to boot.

The whole concept of privacy is kind of 20th century. Before the Industrial age, there wasn't much anybody didn't know about their neighbors.

I guess we don't disagree.

"The trick , as I see it, is getting rid of those registers *and* being capable of handling the holiday crowds."
I think that's exactly the problem, they probably think when there are huge crowds, they can no longer trust people to self checkout, and will need to bring in staff, this may mean slower lines, but if there are more lines, it may balance out AND protect the store.
 
At least in grocery stores, those empty registers are usually not empty. There is money in the drawer and someone logged in, usually office staff, who can come out from the back and help out if things get too busy. When it quiets down again, they shut off their light, go back to the office, and continue with the accounting and inventory duties. Managers will often do the same things, and even some baggers are cross-trained to be able to log in and cashier for a bit.
 
Sure, but free markets are pretty much democracies. Look at video games. I'd be perfectly happy with my GameCube's capabilities. But other gamers weren't, so the market developed new systems. I would be happier if they made new content available for the GameCube format, but the majority of the market moved on.

FreeMarket.gif


Volume 23, Number 12
December 2003
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=467

William H. Peterson

The democracy of the market is not the democracy that Plato spoke of in his Republic (c. 370 BC) as "a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder, and dispensing a kind of equality to equals and unequals alike," nor that Aristotle in his Rhetoric (c. 322 BC) chided as "when put to the strain, grows weak, and is supplanted by oligarchy." It is not that which George Bernard Shaw taxed in his Maxims for Revolutionists (1903) as substituting "election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few," nor that Hans-Hermann Hoppe exposes in his Democracy—The God That Failed (Transaction, 2001, p. 96) that "majorities of ‘have-nots’ will relentlessly try to enrich themselves at the expense of the ‘haves’."

For see how Ludwig Mises lit up a near-unknown yet highly effective daily democracy—the marketplace—in his Socialism (Liberty Classics, 1981, p. 11), giving this democracy a critically needed political dimension today. As Mises wrote: "When we call a capitalist society a consumers’ democracy we mean that the power to dispose of the means of production, which belongs to the entrepreneurs and capitalists, can only be acquired by means of the consumers’ ballot, held daily in the marketplace."

Mises was on solid ground. For what is political democracy? See its Greek derivation: rule or "kratia" by the people, the "demos." But who rules whom? Why do state hegemony and interventionism reign today as givens, why does the free individual fade across the West, why does political majoritarianism divide society?

So I say capitalism, so harassed today, should be especially thought through and guarded in the heat of current debate. Note its basis in private property, equal rights, a limited state (so unlimited today). Note it stars entrepreneurs with their private tools of production of goods and services. Note how its fallible CEOs (Enron, Tyco, etc.) get quickly whipped by the stock market, far faster than by the courts or the Securities and Exchange Commission. For firms are democratically led and, if need be, punished, by their customers—i.e., said Mises, by sovereign consumers everywhere with their make-or-break "orders" (what a word!) and their key market price signals.

Whither then our berated, underrated, far overregulated and much misread capitalism? Yet isn’t it still, per our Founders (though the word capitalism had yet to be coined), a royal road to social cooperation, a vital private network of governments of the people, by the people, for the people, all with individual assent—highly-used withdrawable assent?

Withdrawable? Consider in a free society, countless hierarchies of governance of power, such as the New York Times, Harvard, New York Stock Exchange, Microsoft, the Southern Baptists, the Salvation Army, Wal-Mart and some 25 million other firms, farms and organizations; yet all are totally dependent on that withdrawable individual assent. So you’re free to switch from GM to Ford, from Yale to MIT, from Burger King to McDonald’s. And vice versa. Talk about democracy!

Democracy? But isn’t this our political shield for a Pax Americana to police a sinful, quite undemocratic globe, with the focus now on the turbulent undemocratic Middle East? But doesn’t this serve up de Jouvenel’s classic conundrum (74 AD): Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes (But who is to guard the guards themselves?) Thomas Paine saw this snag in 1776 in Common Sense as "a necessary evil."

Bismarck likened the legislative process to the unsightly conversion of pigs into sausages. Churchill said democracy is the least awful way to effect a peaceful change of political power. Or as Swiss thinker Felix Somary held in his Democracy at Bay (Knopf, 1952, p. 6): Political democracy blends two "fictions," one the idea that "an entire people can assume sovereignty," the other the idea of "the innate goodness of man."

So I juxtapose below America’s Political Democracy with the Misesian point of our Consumer Democracy to clarify which is which—and ask you, with both needful of repairs, which needs the most by far?

In one democracy you vote but every other year for candidates (who may not win) to "represent" you and many others indirectly on myriad issues. In the other, you vote daily, often, directly, for specific vendors, goods, or services, in an endless plebiscite going on every minute of every day, with dollars as ballots. To be sure, some get more ballots than others. Yet Mises saw this outcome as transient, as consumers themselves vote "poor people rich and rich people poor" (Human Action, Yale University Press, 1949, p. 270).

So one democracy is public, the other private. One funds failing programs and schools, the other lets failing firms and private schools fail. One is coercive and centralized, the other voluntary and decentralized. One runs, inadvertently, a growth-impeding win-lose zero-sum game, the other, also inadvertently, a pro-growth win-win positive-sum game. This difference, alone, sets America’s future.

One democracy runs by politics and monopoly, unmindful of Henry David Thoreau’s Civil Disobedience of 1849 when he saw "little virtue in the action of masses of men" and voting as "a sort of gaming;" the other runs a market society by economics and competition. One forgets the individual, per William Graham Sumner’s famed "The Forgotten Man" lecture in 1883, the other remembers him/her (imperfectly per that spam on your PC monitor).

One democracy plays incumbency ruses: compromises with principle, gerrymandering, log-rolling, warmongering, free-lunch guises such as big federal "grants" (bribes?) to states and localities ($313 billion, annualized, 1st qtr., 2003), the other is cleansed by competition, cost-cutting, demonstrated market deeds for consumers free to choose.

One democracy veers to the Machiavellian amoral short run in aim, the other to moral contracts and the longer run. One, with coercive power, yields to Acton’s law that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Yet the other, if gloriously voluntaristic, can and does slip into some corporate behavior—money-grasping or getting into bed with political power to win subsidies, import quotas, and other mischief via special interests—despite President Dwight Eisenhower’s 1961 farewell message against a "military-industrial complex."

One democracy can glorify war, including class warfare, the other glorifies peaceful trade in a virtual global concordance on private property rights (if widely derided as "globalization")—per IBM’s old motto of "World Peace Through World Trade."

One entered World War I, naïvely, as "The War to End War" and "Make the World Safe for Democracy"—only to reap Lenin and Stalin in Russia, Hitler in Germany, Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, Tojo in Japan, Tito in Yugoslavia, Mao in China, Peron in Argentina, Castro in Cuba, Allende in Chile, Pol Pot in Cambodia, and lesser imitators throughout Asia, Africa, Central Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East. President Bush II seeks to "democratize" an entire region while citing Germany and Japan as post-World War II successes, but he remains silent on our failures like North Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Somalia, Haiti (this gamely tagged as "Operation Democracy").

One democracy rues income disparity and, like Robin Hood, "transfers" wealth, the other lifts all boats. One denies itself crucial feedback information—or what Mises called "economic calculation," predicting in 1920 the ultimate collapse of socialism à la the USSR—the other uses that calculation to help allocate limited resources to their perceived optimum market uses. One wastes capital and talent (human capital), the other saves and invests it, self-interestedly, yes—yet, when under a moral code and the rule of law—spontaneously, harmoniously, constructively.

Market democracy explains the success of the West via Adam Smith’s "invisible hand" idea of self-interest in a system of "natural liberty," of self-help by helping others, or per his famed line in Wealth of Nations (1776, Modern Library ed., p. 14): "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, or the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard of their own interest."

No question then that capitalism or a market society is America’s greatest democracy. The question is: Can we tame political democracy à la our Founding Fathers in 1776 or will we allow it to devour us per Ancient Greece?
 
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You don't have to pay automated self-checkout machines minimum wage. Or provide health insurance. Or withhold taxes. Or pay social security taxes. Or pay unemployment fees/taxes/insurance. Or worry about discrimination lawsuits. Or collectively bargain.

The government's mandates incentivize automation and disincentivize hiring people.

Do minimum wage workers ever get benefits like insurance?
 
Why do you care whether I want to talk to another person or not? Do what you want and leave me alone--I'll go through the self-checkout line and avoid people because I don't like them.

What are you fussing about? I am leaving you alone. I'm just expressing my opinion. Why is it that everyone now sees a distasteful opinion as somebody trying to control them? Talk about paranoid...
 
Sure, but free markets are pretty much democracies. Look at video games. I'd be perfectly happy with my GameCube's capabilities. But other gamers weren't, so the market developed new systems. I would be happier if they made new content available for the GameCube format, but the majority of the market moved on.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about with the GameCube thing. If 51% of the people like something, and 49% don't, that doesn't mean the stores go with the 51% because it is more profitable. They usually try to satisfy both. That isn't democracy. Democracy doesn't accomodate, it enforces the rule of the simple majority.
 
What do you mean by at the expense of human beings? Technology ALWAYS saves time, and ALWAYS makes things more convenient, so eliminating the imaginary privacy you only had due to lack of technology, or decreasing job opportunities, is almost guaranteed, what examples are you thinking of where technology does not do one or both of them?

First explain what imaginary privacy exists due to a lack of technology. Is my privacy imaginary when I have hard copy books instead of kindle and buy with cash from private sellers? Is my privacy imaginary when I pay for cash for my groceries or goods at a farmers market or flea market with no cameras or "courtesy" cards? Technology does not always save time and convenience is in the eye of the beholder. Automatic dishwashers have been a bane of many a housewife's existence as an example of technology not saving time. My parents use theirs as a storage cabinet. The phone is a major inconvenience imo disrupting my household at the most inopportune moment and I refuse to answer mine, having finally come to the ownership of a magic jack for the purpose of providing a phone number to places such as doctors offices which demand a contact number.
 
I, personally, Love the self check-out at grocery stores. If there's a self-checkout option, I rarely bother with the cashier-based option.
 
So the company does away with the cashier, for every dollar saved, the customer gets a penny. We now have more people out of work, and on welfare, so your tax dollars go up to pay for the penny you saved.

Looks to me like another way to transfer money to the 1%.

You cannot be for reducing welfare, and reducing jobs. It does not add up.

I wonder... who owns Penny's?
 
If you don't want to be tracked temporarily while you do your shopping, then don't go shopping - as simple as that. You are not being coerced into the invasion of your own privacy, this is still a voluntary choice.

The level of this logic on a liberty forum would be amusing if it wasn't so sad. Don't shop? The future looks dark indeed when one should not point out the dangers in losing ones privacy for the sake of convenience but instead is told they should just not shop. Really? That is your honest solution? Just wait until you happen to piss off a neighbor and gain the attention of the government someday when this system is complete. How many laws do you think you break in an hour much less a day that can be brought crashing down upon you in a total surveillance grid system? So how does one feed or clothe their household once this great society with the wireless grid is complete?

I am not cowering in the corner, not now or ever.And I'll be darned if I'll have someone tell me to sit back and accept it. I will teach my family and discuss with others the inherrant dangers of the systems that are being employed and go out kicking and screaming being a market for those who realize that the old ways are the best ways for insuring the privacy and rights of the individual. The reason many of us come here and share with each other is so that we are not silenced and drown with the rest of society on the sinking ship of privacy thus allowing those in power to complete the circuit that gives them total control over any individual they site their targets on to make an example of as they get the rest to march in lockstep to whatever drum is beat.
 
So the company does away with the cashier, for every dollar saved, the customer gets a penny. We now have more people out of work, and on welfare, so your tax dollars go up to pay for the penny you saved.

Looks to me like another way to transfer money to the 1%.

You cannot be for reducing welfare, and reducing jobs. It does not add up.

I wonder... who owns Penny's?

Any time you can use technology to replace a human's job it means that person can perform some other productive task, which makes society more productive as a whole. Using your logic we should just go back to the cavemen days because at least then everyone had a job and there was no stinkin technology to replace human labor. We were much more prosperous back then.
 
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