A Revolution Betrayed?

[Freedom&Reason]

I dont know about you guys, but I haven't ever seen a third party debate on national (hell, local) television.

I swear I saw Ross Perot in debates. I could be wrong and maybe your not that old.

 

[Freedom&Reason]

Stevemartin started a thread where he claimed that Carol Paul had contacted him personally and stated that Ron did not write that email on 2/8/08. The mods let it stay on the forum all day until someone pointed out that if it was true, it made Ron Paul look like the dumbest man on the planet.

They finally moved it to hot topics and then later deleted the whole post. In the meantime, they banned a poster who was trying to protect Ron Paul and who called the poster a liar (it was true, he was lying) and they let the lying poster (stevemartin) stay on the forum to keep stirring up trouble.

Is this true?

I don't know about him being an imposter. He is not credible at all though, since he doesn't give up much in the way of facts.

 

[silverhandorder]

I don't get it, what do you hope to accomplish going 3rd party? Only way to work is to take over the party.

 

[SteveMartin]

Stevemartin started a thread where he claimed that Carol Paul had contacted him personally and stated that Ron did not write that email on 2/8/08. The mods let it stay on the forum all day until someone pointed out that if it was true, it made Ron Paul look like the dumbest man on the planet.

They finally moved it to hot topics and then later deleted the whole post. In the meantime, they banned a poster who was trying to protect Ron Paul and who called the poster a liar (it was true, he was lying) and they let the lying poster (stevemartin) stay on the forum to keep stirring up trouble.

Is this true?

coffeewithchess,

Calling me a liar on an open forum is libel. Are you ready to defend it?

I said in that post that Carol told me that RP would be addressing the situation of the misintepretation of the "Trotsky Letter" in a video by Tuesday. That is exactly what subsequently happened. Or, are you saying I made the video up too?

Carol did not "contact me"...I contacted her and asked about the "Trotsky Letter" and she was kind enough to respond.

This is the essence of my contention that we have been infiltrated. Nobody but an infiltrator would put out such a letter quoting Trotsky and saying we had "0% chance" the night before three major elections. That letter cost us an outright win in WA. That would have put us back in the news and inline for more upsets in the primaries/caucuses to follow. Somebody knew what effect such a letter would have on the grassroots. The question is WHO??

My thread exposed the infiltration and gave the grassroots renewed hope.

Get over it. Some people are apparently jeolous that CP would write back. Big woops! I am one of the earliest supporters (coordinator of meetup group #17-- what, of almost 1800 of them now?)

I met Ron and Carol before half of you even heard of them.

 

[Steve_New_Jersey]

Keep hoping for a 3rd party.... The variables waiting in the shadows have way more money then Ron can raise. He isnt stupid. He already knows what he is up against. Dont you all think this long time patriot knows that a 3rd party run would be near usless? If anything Ron would empower those waiting in the shadows by running 3rd party.

 

[seeker1]

I wonder where you get your numbers from?

The majority of this movement are Republicans.

I guess, since you and your ilk have been banishing the non GOP loyalists, that claim is probably now true, but I don't believe republicrats were the majority when we first started.

You always speak with alot of authority and so I yield to your superior knowledge.

Actually, you've succeeded in convincing me to go away.

 

[syborius]

Dr Paul did not betray us, Dr Paul was betrayed from within. He did not write that message. That message was sabotage of the most insidious kind.

 

[seeker1]

well, that's it then.

I met Ron and Carol before half of you even heard of them.

I met them in 1978. Does that mean anything? Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

[SteveMartin]

seeker1,

My apologies. I wasn't refering to you, but to these people who are calling me a liar and saying I never really heard from Carol.

And, I did say "half of you." Why would you immediately assign yourself to the wrong half?

Did you even post in this thread prior to the last few minutes?

 

[joemiller]

Gogwash! Pure political gogwash!

It will be many years, I fear, before any REAL conservartive movement 'takes back' the Republican Party. Those in the actual seats of power are too heavily entrenched to be vulnerable for years to come. Of course, we can all get involved at the local level but those who make it to the state level within the actual party are the party faithful who have no qualms about compromising their supposed beliefs simply to remain in power. I'm not saying it can't be done, only that it will take YEARS to be able to actually accomplish anything meaningful. I know, I've actually served two terms on the local county executive committee and, while the county parties are often VERY conservative, those at the state level are there to simply push whatever the party line is at that particular time. Make waves and you'll get nowhere.

I've been very hesitant to even CONSIDER Dr. Paul's making a third-party run as I see one going nowhere. The third parties are ignored even more than Dr. Paul has been ignored this election cycle and most people, having been thoroughly brainwashed into the two-party system, would never consider 'throwing their vote away' by voting for a third party candidate. In other words, Dr. Paul would probably actually lose the portion of his support that consideres themselves Republicans, while only picking up a few votes from those who consider themselves 'independent'. So...while I'm afraid that a third-party run would only be preaching to what is already the choir, I'm now seeing little chance (thanks mainly to that email that was sent out that is referenced in the above article) of accomplishing our goals from inside the Republican Party.

Now, most on these forums know that I'm generally a cheerleader for whatever Dr. Paul thinks is best, I'm having to seriously question the future direction and possibilities of this campaign. I was still cautiously optimiistic until last evening when he barely garnered enough votes to beat Mittens in two of the three states and actually came in behind him in one. Now I know this is party due to the MSM and local media making it appear that Dr. Paul had dropped out and that Mitten had only 'suspended' his campaign, however, at this point, I have to begin to believe that a third-party run might actually get more traction given the outright hatred of the two probably nominees (McCain and either Hilary or Obama). I can't ever recall an election where emotions are running so high against the Republican nominee from within the rank and file of the party and, therefore, this just might be a golden opportunity for a third-party run (even considering the sore-loser laws and potential ballot access issues). The Consittution Party is now the third-largest party in the U.S. surpassing even the Libertarians and they don't have a lot of the perceived baggage as the "L" party who is seen by most folks at the 'legalize drugs' and 'open borders' party.

As you can tell, I'm still trying to reconcile my feelings on what direction should be undertaken (as I'm sure many other are too) but, the bottom line is, I'm seeing less and less chance of actually getting to a brokered convention with each passing day. IF Dr. Paul doesn't do well in Texas (and who knows, miracles DO happen), I'm imagining a REAL withdrawal afterwards. Thing is, where do we go from here?

That is true; many Ron Paul supporters were not registered Republicans before this election and they are not comfortable in the Rep. party. The official party is uncomfortable with us in their ranks. By the time these old men Rep. die off, the country will have been lost. Ron Paul is not your typical Republican. If he were, the movement would have died months ago.

Ron Paul's supporters, if they are smart and committed, can take over the Republican Party within a year. Use the next year to position themselves to control the mid-term elections, and by 2012, be in an absolute position to make all the changes Dr. Paul would support, and more.

 

[seeker1]

No apologies needed.

seeker1,

My apologies. I wasn't refering to you, but to these people who are calling me a liar and saying I never really heard from Carol.

And, I did say "half of you." Why would you immediately assign yourself to the wrong half?

Did you even post in this thread prior to the last few minutes?

This thread was going off track and I was just having a little fun pointing out that knowing someone longer than another doesn't mean anything. I'm the one who should apologize.

And yes I read the entire thread. It is difficult to know where the fiction started and where it ends.

 

[bobbyw24]

I do hope you're right, Joe Miller

 

[beachmaster]

Ron Paul's supporters, if they are smart and committed, can take over the Republican Party within a year. Use the next year to position themselves to control the mid-term elections, and by 2012, be in an absolute position to make all the changes Dr. Paul would support, and more.

A year may be too late. Our time is NOW!

If Ron Paul loses the GOP nomination, we need to find another candidate to rally behind in the general election. Hopefully someone Ron Paul could endorse.

Oh sure, call me a defeatist! lol

 

[seeker1]

That's the spirit.

Ron Paul's supporters, if they are smart and committed, can take over the Republican Party within a year. Use the next year to position themselves to control the mid-term elections, and by 2012, be in an absolute position to make all the changes Dr. Paul would support, and more.

There's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Dreams can come true and all good dogs go to heaven.

 

[SteveMartin]

This thread is straying way too far off the mark, as Seeker has pointed out.

To reiterate, Raimondo is wrong to assume that RP has anything personally to do with the failure to win the nomination. That failure, IMO, was planned and executed brilliantly by plants within the official campaign.

Oh lookie...another state being ignored (someone just started a thread)...WI...When will some of you wake up and string the traitors up! (metaphorically, for now....)

 

[pacelli]

I love the message and spread it any chance I get.

I get deflated and demoralized during every primary & caucus. It doesn't stop me from spreading the message or canvassing (my neighbors are quite frankly SOLD on voting for Ron as a result), but my belief in RP securing the presidential nod has been impacted.

My eyes peeled to the streaming election results as well as the forums, I see a disparity. In nearly every state so far, there are numerous prediction threads on RPF implying that Ron will win. I think the values of the grassroots are in the right place, and I also think that Ron Paul Forums Myopia leads to inflated hopes based on an unrealistic assumption that we somehow represent more than 10% of the US voting population. When these hopes are deflated, we turn on ourselves. I see it happen after every primary or caucus. There is generally little effort given to a sober post-mortem, and threads that illustrate winning strategies are frequently buried and replaced by the latest fundraising fad, MSM conspiracy theory, or election fraud allegations. And before I get flamed for it, I believe that there is an organized MSM blackout and I believe that election fraud has been rampant. I also believe that the campaign has been infiltrated, even though I have no hard evidence to support this view. Furthermore I believe the posted reports that Romney & Huckabee's robocalls were telling people that Ron Paul dropped out.

We have a number of supporters in other countries who are unable to vote in our primaries, and are legally unable to donate to the campaign. That being said, I think it is remarkable how Dr. Paul's message has gathered such reaching support -- we are a global community committed to making real changes.

We have also had a number of supporters post that they are not of legal voting age, or dropped the ball entirely on registering appropriately in their state. I think the anonymity of the forums contributes to the myopia, and in some cases, pure laziness. I don't say this as a sweeping generalization, as many of us are fully committed and take offense to the mere implication of laziness. But let's be real here-- many of the summer patriots that have either left us or been banned have put a lot of words out there but were never DOING what was required. Hence we had a false impression of greatness.

I knew going into this campaign that it would be an uphill fight. Ron still gets my vote.

 

[stevedasbach]

It is a debatable proposition as to which course offers the greater likelihood of long-term success -- taking effective control of the Republican party or building a competitive third party that can displace one of the two current major parties.

It is important to understand that a third party must displace one of the existing two parties to be competitive. In winner take all contests, there will always be two, and only two major parties. This is a consequence of the wasted vote syndrome and occurs whether or not there are legal barriers to third parties.

The advantage of focusing on taking effective control of the Republican party is that there is a base of voters who reliably vote Republican irrespective of who the candidate is. This reduces the number of people you have to win to your side to gain a majority. Also, major party nominees generally get far more MSM coverage than third party candidates. The disadvantage is that many of the people who currently hold leadership positions in the party are opposed to our agenda.

The third party option gets you directly to the general election without having to overcome opposition within the Republican party. However, you have to build your base from scratch, which is time consuming and expensive. You have to overcome the perception that third party candidates can't win, and you will get virtually no MSM coverage (i.e. less than Paul is getting right now) unless/until you are polling high enough to be seen as having an effect on the race. Even then, your coverage will be that of a "spoiler" unless/until you are polling high enough to qualify for the debates (i.e. over 15%). Best guess is that would require over $100 million, with most of it devoted to national TV advertising.

Dr. Paul has apparently made the calculation that his efforts are more likely to bear fruit within the Republican party than without. Some of us may disagree with his choice, but it is a reasonable one. (IMO the third party option would also have been reasonable, but it's not at all clear that it would have been more likely to be successful).

Building a successful third party that can successfully compete in elections for Congress and the presidency is very difficult. If you haven't been involved in trying to do it, you really have no idea the hurdles that have to be overcome.

 

[seeker1]

Great Post

I love the message and spread it any chance I get.

I get deflated and demoralized during every primary & caucus. It doesn't stop me from spreading the message or canvassing (my neighbors are quite frankly SOLD on voting for Ron as a result), but my belief in RP securing the presidential nod has been impacted.

My eyes peeled to the streaming election results as well as the forums, I see a disparity. In nearly every state so far, there are numerous prediction threads on RPF implying that Ron will win. I think the values of the grassroots are in the right place, and I also think that Ron Paul Forums Myopia leads to inflated hopes based on an unrealistic assumption that we somehow represent more than 10% of the US voting population. When these hopes are deflated, we turn on ourselves. I see it happen after every primary or caucus. There is generally little effort given to a sober post-mortem, and threads that illustrate winning strategies are frequently buried and replaced by the latest fundraising fad, MSM conspiracy theory, or election fraud allegations. And before I get flamed for it, I believe that there is an organized MSM blackout and I believe that election fraud has been rampant. I also believe that the campaign has been infiltrated, even though I have no hard evidence to support this view. Furthermore I believe the posted reports that Romney & Huckabee's robocalls were telling people that Ron Paul dropped out.

We have a number of supporters in other countries who are unable to vote in our primaries, and are legally unable to donate to the campaign. That being said, I think it is remarkable how Dr. Paul's message has gathered such reaching support -- we are a global community committed to making real changes.

We have also had a number of supporters post that they are not of legal voting age, or dropped the ball entirely on registering appropriately in their state. I think the anonymity of the forums contributes to the myopia, and in some cases, pure laziness. I don't say this as a sweeping generalization, as many of us are fully committed and take offense to the mere implication of laziness. But let's be real here-- many of the summer patriots that have either left us or been banned have put a lot of words out there but were never DOING what was required. Hence we had a false impression of greatness.

I knew going into this campaign that it would be an uphill fight. Ron still gets my vote.

very well said and accurate, i think.

 

[stevedasbach]

I swear I saw Ross Perot in debates. I could be wrong and maybe your not that old.

Ross Perot was included in 1992. After that, they set the polling threshhold to be included at 15%, which virtually no third party or independent candidate has ever met. Jesse Ventura was polling at 7% when he was included in the debates for Minnesota Governor -- he went on to win. If the 15% threshold had been in place for that contest, he would have been excluded and would probably not have won.

 

[stevedasbach]

This thread is straying way too far off the mark, as Seeker has pointed out.

To reiterate, Raimondo is wrong to assume that RP has anything personally to do with the failure to win the nomination. That failure, IMO, was planned and executed brilliantly by plants within the official campaign.

Oh lookie...another state being ignored (someone just started a thread)...WI...When will some of you wake up and string the traitors up! (metaphorically, for now....)

I disagree. There is nothing to suggest that this was intentional. The people involved had no experience running a national presidential campaign and they made some bad strategic choices (IMO - so did the grassroots). They also were unprepared to take advantage of the explosion of support and funding that occurred.

Even if they had done everything right, winning the nomination still would have been an uphill battle.

Washington lost a lot of battles, but the tide ultimately turned and he won the war. The fight for the nomination was a series of battles, but the war is about more than winning the nomination and presidency this year. It's about restoring liberty and that war will continue long past November.