A question to all minarchists

Statelessness has existed in more places for more of history than statism has.

Precisely so. If what the anthropologists say is true, we have a good million or so years of anarchy behind us. By all indications, people lived by their wits and muscles and did not tolerate the sorts of trespass some today take as the great blessings of civilization.

How, pray tell, did we ever survive into this modern age?

The rank ignorance of the mob defies credulity, as does the will to believe what they want rather than what is actually out there.

More than 99% of humanity's existence has been spent in statelessness.

To several decimal places, I would add.

You're asking me to pick out a couple jellyfish in the Atlantic. I assume that's your game, since you think that a lot of that was spent in lawlessness - which doesn't follow at all, because if it was so bad, people would never have survived to form states.

You're feeding a troll. Wasting your time.

Do you remember talking about Greece in grade school history class?
You know why they had city-states?
'Cause there was no state outside the cities.

And they were all tyrannical. Just ask Socrates.

What was it like in North America before Europeans showed up?

Well, there WAS empire... Maya, Aztec... all tyrannical and without exception.
 
So, way back in the day, when man lived in blissful anarchy, two tribes.... errr... family groups occupied the same territory. One tribe was peaceful, the other was warlike. The peaceful tribe flourished, since they spent all their time on growing crops and what not. The warlike tribe, however, did not flourish because they spent too much time chucking rocks at things. One day, the elders from the warlike tribe decided that the peaceful tribe was making poor use of their land, seeing as they were not chucking rocks at things. They decided that this misuse was a transgression upon their liberty and proceeded to annihilate the peaceful tribe, being much better at rock chucking, and take their bounty for themselves. Sadly, the peaceful tribe is now but a memory... which is good seeing as they did not take the time to cultivate a militia.

In other words: Anarchy is what got us here, the Constitution was meant to keep the strong from victimizing the weak as is always the case in anarchy. Did it fail? No, how can a thing that was NEVER really tried fail? Perhaps we should give it a shot before thinking backwards.

For the record, I am down with privatized everything except for the courts.

EDIT: I have read Rothbard, so please elucidate on his theories instead of the usual plagiarism.
 
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So, way back in the day, when man lived in blissful anarchy, two tribes.... errr... family groups occupied the same territory. One tribe was peaceful, the other was warlike. The peaceful tribe flourished, since they spent all their time on growing crops and what not. The warlike tribe, however, did not flourish because they spent too much time chucking rocks at things. One day, the elders from the warlike tribe decided that the peaceful tribe was making poor use of their land, seeing as they were not chucking rocks at things. They decided that this misuse was a transgression upon their liberty and proceeded to annihilate the peaceful tribe, being much better at rock chucking, and take their bounty for themselves. Sadly, the peaceful tribe is now but a memory... which is good seeing as they did not take the time to cultivate a militia.

Not quite sure how to take your sarcasm here. Anarchy does not of necessity result in a refusal to be prepared for war. Indeed, many if not a gross majority of even such peaceable tribes as those to which you refer were plenty prepared for war. This is one of the paradoxes of the free and peace loving man: he must be prepared for war at all times because life seems to have a proclivity for the predator-prey relationship. No matter how airy-fairy a nation's life may be, if they want to keep it that way they had best be prepared to murder invaders en-masse, without hesitation, and sans mercy. They are not REQUIRED to do this, of course, but will do so if they do not want to get raked over the coals by another group.

Those who are free and wish to remain that way have a choice to make: prepare for what appears to be the inevitable attacks upon that freedom, or sit about and get sacked.

Similarly, empire nations have fallen to the very same sorts of predation despite having made significant investments in, and preparations for warfare. There are no guarantees in this life. You get your shot and do what you will and can with it. Some do well, others not so much so.

In other words: Anarchy is what got us here

That is not at all true. The naivete, stupidity, fear, and/or apathy that allowed empire to rise and flourish is what got us here. It is one thing for people to come together voluntarily to build walled cities to protect themselves from wild predators and perhaps other people. It is a very different thing to be conscripted to do so as a slave or otherwise unwilling participant.

It is this notion that one group of people are entitled to force the rest to do their bidding that got us "here", as you put it. It is the acceptance of this fiction by the mob that got us here. Were the mob to stand tall before the man and resolutely decline his evil mandates, the authority would be left with its thumbs up its backside, impotent. Sure, they could start killing people, but let us take a good hard look at how well that has worked out, historically speaking, which is to say not very well at all. At best, it buys tyranny a modicum of time, but in the end the readily recognizable tyrant loses his grip. It is the tyrant who cannot be readily pinned down as such that is the great danger. It is when a race of slaves boastfully proclaims its freedom that you know serious trouble is afoot. Welcome to the American mob! "We're the best because we're FREE!" God help us.

the Constitution was meant to keep the strong from victimizing the weak as is always the case in anarchy.

Always? That is a very strong word, not unlike "hate". That aside, consider how well the "Constitution" has succeeded. Not well at all. Our rights were under serious attack by elements even as the document was being drafted. The Constitution is NOTHING in and of itself. A piece of paper (vellum??) with symbols on it that would mean nothing to a stranger from Mars. What counts are the PEOPLE, whether they live together as a constitutional republic, as communists, or in anarchy. It is what people CHOOSE for themselves that matters, and thus far people have chosen shit of an ever creeping intensity of mal-odor ever since the mind rotting concept of empire came to be accepted. Empire is decay gussied up as glory. It is externally imposed force falsely disguised as unity. It is the greatest blight that has ever scourged the face of this world, and make no mistake about it: empire will be the doom of the human race. But people accept it - nay, DEMAND it. Why? Because it brought us social classes and imposing edifices and works of public art. Because it allowed the average individual with his lazy attitude and his avarice for getting something for nothing to park his brains at the curb of life and be content with letting someone else do all the hard work for him.

Empire, then, is the preferred mode of living for the inferior man. Dullards, cowards, and thieves thrive in empire because it secures to them the things they are too stupid, incapable, or lazy to get and do for themselves. It allows them abdication of all responsibility for their own lives when all they have to do lay back and let others do for them.

This inferiority swings both ways, mind you. Those doing the "thinking" for the mindless herd are every bit as deplorable as their wards. It is their lust for what they think is true "power", their need of self aggrandizement, the insatiable drive to honor themselves, that holds them in a vise-like grip not unlike that of heroin over the pathetic addict.

Did it fail? No, how can a thing that was NEVER really tried fail? Perhaps we should give it a shot before thinking backwards.

You make my point as per above. People are all that lends reality to such concepts. Remove people and then tell me where may one find "state", or "government", or the "constitution". Without people, none of it exists because the only place they ever COULD exist was in the minds of people... unless someone thinks their dog or pet hamster is a constitutional scholar.

The Constitution CANNOT fail because it is an inanimate thing, the only reality of its own being the paper on which it is written and the inky marks placed upon it. Beyond that, the only reality there is that which we give it. People are the life of such things, not the things themselves.

For the record, I am down with privatized everything except for the courts.

Privatized or otherwise, courts succeed or fail only if they are accountable. Privatization as currently conceived in mainstream, early 21st century USA is insanity because there is not accountability. Not just that, but the mobsters called "government" use their assumed monopoly on "state" force to ensure that certain privatized entities are well insulated from any accountability.

Once again: private v. public is NOT the issue. ACCOUNTABILITY is. Please re-read that last bit 100/day until I tell you to stop. :)

EDIT: I have read Rothbard, so please elucidate on his theories instead of the usual plagiarism.

Tho whom do you address this?
 
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First off, I Was commenting on the petty argument between SpiritOf1776_J4 and cstarace, so you really ought to stop playing the victim.

Secondly, I'm really not so concerned about having the last word as you seem to be. I've been over this topic multiple times, It's not worth my while to continue running in circles.

I wasn't playing the victim. I said you stopped arguing after I made a fairly cohesive rebuttal to your claims, and if you really cared to make your point, you'd have responded.
 
Actually, Osan, I am right. lol. The last comment was for general anarchist consumption, and should people that do not take measures to protect themselves from VIOLENCE be victimized with it? Is that due and proper? And as for your recommendation... "Do such and such until I say stop." Isn't that a bit, hypocritical? Your going to mandate my reading of rothbard? Tyrant.
 
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Precisely so. If what the anthropologists say is true, we have a good million or so years of anarchy behind us. By all indications, people lived by their wits and muscles and did not tolerate the sorts of trespass some today take as the great blessings of civilization.

There are pockets of indigenous peoples still scattered throughout the world. There are several tribes in the Amazon jungle alone. Maybe if you bring them a fruit basket or a nice apple brown betty they will let you join their enlightened community.
 
I see the only necessity of government existing as long as the free market does not have an alternative. I am currently a miniarchist but see anarcho-capitalism as an inevitability of miniarchism. If I am understanding things correctly that is.
 
How much security should government provide?

again government should not provide security, local police forces and private citizens should do that. The government should protect the rule of law, which in the US aught be, but isn't, the Constitution.
 
again government should not provide security, local police forces and private citizens should do that. The government should protect the rule of law, which in the US aught be, but isn't, the Constitution.

That isn't really what you said, so I guess I'll ask you to clarify what your comment means: "should people that do not take measures to protect themselves from VIOLENCE be victimized with it?"
 
Actually, via local police, it is what I said. Private Citizens that take measures to protect themselves should not be, in any way, kept from doing so. But an ignorant person should not be bereft of protection because he/she is to poor or ignorant to provide for themselves.

My thought is so: US Constitution>Anarchy>Everything else.
 
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...should people that do not take measures to protect themselves from VIOLENCE be victimized with it?

It is not a question of "should". In this case, normative thinking is insanely inappropriate. Here, one must be purely positive in their approach to things. In one man's mind the answer to your question may be "no". To another, "FUCK no". But there are always those few for whom the answer is a resounding "YES!" It is most curious to note how such people seem able to gather the support of great hordes of mindless drones whose bankrupt lives suddenly start taking what appears a turn for the better. The promise of vicariously attained glory presents itself in such a way that such pathetic sad-sacks will feel very free to lie to themselves and each other in the false claim that the glory is, in fact, theirs and of their making. The "leader" will encourage this at every opportunity and the lie will become the reality in time. Once that threshold is crossed, nearly anything is possible if the people are properly primed for it; just look at how uncle Adolph sucked in so large a swath of the German people such that the bullshit became the truth. I would also take some note how that little affair ended, with the hordes of idiots exclaiming, "how could this have happened?" And there is yet another example of a "state" - a "government" - a "nation" having been about as prepared for war as one could possibly ask. And they got their asses handed to them in the end.

Is that due and proper?

Once again you ask a question that lies clearly in the normative realm and is irrelevant in the real world. In reality, whether it is "due and proper" makes no difference at all after an invading army has laid your land to waste, raped your women, enslaved you children, and eaten your goats. What I think you are driving at here is that somehow "government" is needed to make sure such things do not happen. Well, I hate to break this to you, but that is a pipe dream and all one has to do to see the truth in this assertion is to look at human history. Hell, confine yourself only to the 20th century and you will have the pleasure of treating yourself to the great litanies of mass murder by Mao, Stalin, and so forth. Those were GOVERNMENTS - STATES - those very institutions whose ostensible raison d'etre were to PROTECT the people whom they butchered by the tens of millions in the most brutally cruel and cold fashion the human race has yet witnessed. Forgive me, but HELLO?! What advantage, exactly, has "government" bought us? None that I can see and my eyes for such things are pretty good. I can, however, see a great raft of crushing troubles that it has brought with it. The reason people cannot accept anarchism, which is nothing more sinister than self-rule, is because of the assumptions under which they live their lives and consider such things as politics. If the underlying assumptions are of a certain sort, it will be only natural that people conclude that self-rule cannot possibly work and that it is tantamount to chaos. The historical evidence of most of the human race over the vast and overwhelming temporal majority of its existence indicates that few things could be farther from the truth.

And as for your recommendation... "Do such and such until I say stop." Isn't that a bit, hypocritical? Your going to mandate my reading of rothbard? Tyrant.

I was just a joke in pursuit of making the point of emphasis.
 
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Actually, via local police, it is what I said. Private Citizens that take measures to protect themselves should not be, in any way, kept from doing so. But an ignorant person should not be bereft of protection because he/she is to poor or ignorant to provide for themselves

So then you advocate that some arbitrarily constituted group of individuals take it upon themselves to to expropriate the necessary resources from the rest, regardless of consent, and provide this "service" for the downtrodden. Have I got that bit correct?
 
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