A question to all minarchists

[cstarace]

I'm sure this has been discussed numerous times before, but it's always fun to have an anarcho-capitalist/minarchist debate. Since you support an extremely minimized state whose only functions are the preservation of life, liberty, and property (in affect, a Randian-style police/military/courts government) then you must also support public police departments, fire departments, court systems, and a national defense. How do such things get funded if taxation, by its very nature, is in violation of the non-aggression principle?

 

[brushfire]

Volunteer police force, fire departments, and military? Taxes on international trade and port usage? Voluntary contributions? Court/arbitration fees?

Who forces people to give to the morman church? Where does LDS get all that money, and what do they do with it?

Its just one example... Why not be burdened with convincing people what the right thing to do is? Its hard to fathom for those who are accustomed to the overreach we see today - which makes operations very expensive.

 

[Sam I am]

I'm sure this has been discussed numerous times before, but it's always fun to have an anarcho-capitalist/minarchist debate. Since you support an extremely minimized state whose only functions are the preservation of life, liberty, and property (in affect, a Randian-style police/military/courts government) then you must also support public police departments, fire departments, court systems, and a national defense. How do such things get funded if taxation, by its very nature, is in violation of the non-aggression principle?

I have no problem with taxation. I have no problem with the idea that people are forced to pay taxes. It is a necessary evil. Without taxation, it would be impossible to enforce a uniform set of laws. Their would be no public police. There would be no public courts. In their place there would be militant special interest groups whom are held accountable to nobody but themselves.

As a disclaimer, I will say that I am deeply troubled by all the stories these days of public police not being held accountable for their actions, but bear in mind, that instances of police being not brutal, and instances of police being sufficiently disciplined for their actions generally don't make as interesting a news story as the other way around, so you won't hear about it as often.

 

[GeorgiaAvenger]

I recognize that there is a great dilemma, and the choice must be between protection of rights or absolute freedom.

I believe the former is the preferred choice, even though taxation is a necessary evil. I believe the Bible supports having some form of government, so I am comfortable with my decision.

I think idealist anarchism is great, but it is simply idealism. I am not willing to hunker down in a bunker with my family just do I can say that I don't support the non-aggression principle.

 

[RiseAgainst]

Minarchism: The theory that government is a violent invasion on individual sovereignty, so we must have a government with monopoly on force to prevent a government from obtaining a monopoly on force and violently subverting individual sovereignty.

 

[Sam I am]

ooh ooh let me try


Number 1 cause of Anarchism:

Having never actually experienced Anarchy.

 

[RiseAgainst]

ooh ooh let me try


Number 1 cause of being pro Anarchism:

Having never actually experienced Anarchism.

Really? Do you live in a State Gulag?

If your answer is no, then you are a versed and experienced anarchist. Even in this most tyrannical of states, you live 95% of your life in anarchy. Every interaction you have with others all day long that does not involve an intervening agent by the state, every voluntary action you take, every transaction you make is made in anarchy. You have no problem with this anarchy because you can see it's value, you enjoy the benefits of it's outcome. When it's outcome may not be exactly as you personally desire, you'd just as soon hire a thug with a fancy hat and a big gun to force people to do as you wish.

I know, this is all so difficult for you. Things are much easier when the guys with guns do the thinking for you.

 

[Pericles]

Well regulated militia = no monopoly of force.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Well regulated militia = no monopoly of force.

Only if one has the right to resist unjust use of the militia with force.

 

[Sam I am]

Only if one has the right to resist unjust use of the militia with force.

Imagine a Militia, it can be a state Militia, a private Militia, a private security agency, or any militia you think is the best example of what security would resemble in a free society.

Assume you believe they acted unjustly toward you. you resisted, and they ended up capturing you.

When the Militia decides what to do with you. How is it decided whether or not they acted unjustly

 

[otherone]

Derision seems to be the the most common tune in the anarchist's repertoire.

 

[RiseAgainst]

Derision seems to be the the most common tune in the anarchist's repertoire.

Ya, I think it probably has to do with all the self-righteous people sticking guns in their faces and then telling them how they are better off because of it. I know, it seems counter logical that someone would be upset after being robbed at gunpoint, but I guess we anarchists are just an illogical bunch, eh?

 

[otherone]

Ya, I think it probably has to do with all the self-righteous people sticking guns in their faces and then telling them how they are better off because of it. I know, it seems counter logical that someone would be upset after being robbed at gunpoint, but I guess we anarchists are just an illogical bunch, eh?

my username should be Pavlov.

 

[BSWPaulsen]

I'm sure this has been discussed numerous times before, but it's always fun to have an anarcho-capitalist/minarchist debate. Since you support an extremely minimized state whose only functions are the preservation of life, liberty, and property (in affect, a Randian-style police/military/courts government) then you must also support public police departments, fire departments, court systems, and a national defense. How do such things get funded if taxation, by its very nature, is in violation of the non-aggression principle?

The NAP isn't an end-all, nor do minarchists accept it as anything more than a generally good idea that runs into problems addressing real life circumstances. In short, NAP is a useful moral guideline with limited utility. Taxation is less of a perceived problem than an inability to effectively pursue justice, or common defense against collectivists (the latter being a case of recognizing a need to fight fire with fire).

Would I rather see to it that people pay taxes for national defense than substantially increase the likelihood a country of collectivists (who have forcefully pooled their assets for military endeavors, mind you) being able to completely subvert my way of life? Yes. History is rife with examples of one group of collectivists dominating anyone that isn't united, which provides a very easy explanation for why the entire globe is dominated by some version of statism - strength in numbers.

Would I rather see to it that people pay taxes than have a functionally non-existent justice system? Yes. Further belaboring the point I particularly want justice systems beholden to a social contract and not the whims of the day.

Minarchists are typically utilitarians. Anarcho-capitalists are typically idealists. Never the twain shall meet.

 

[RiseAgainst]

my username should be Pavlov.

Don't flatter yourself.

 

[otherone]

Don't flatter yourself.

lol....it's a perpetual saliva machine!!!!!!

 

[Travlyr]

Ya, I think it probably has to do with all the self-righteous people sticking guns in their faces and then telling them how they are better off because of it. I know, it seems counter logical that someone would be upset after being robbed at gunpoint, but I guess we anarchists are just an illogical bunch, eh?

Before guns there were spears. Before spears there were clubs and stones. Someone has always been in charge and that is not likely to change anytime soon.

Best thing to do is participate and limit their authority.

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." - Pericles, 430 B.C.

Either that or dream what never was and what will not be in our lifetimes.

Sound money, allodial title to land, and obeying the rule of law is what liberates. When everyone who loves freedom is working diligently for sound money, fully redeemable, then humanity will be on the path to freedom.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

Awesome to see that not only have no minarchists spoken against taxation, but that they have so far embraced it.

 

[BuddyRey]

Really? Do you live in a State Gulag?

If your answer is no, then you are a versed and experienced anarchist. Even in this most tyrannical of states, you live 95% of your life in anarchy. Every interaction you have with others all day long that does not involve an intervening agent by the state, every voluntary action you take, every transaction you make is made in anarchy.

Win!

If the state is fiction, then anarchy is an unavoidable existential constant...a law, in the truest sense of the word.

To try and artificially "order" society from the top-down is to flout that law...codified by the most primal set of instincts and desires written into our hearts and minds that makes each individual intuitively chafe at the idea of being compelled, cajoled, and bullied.

Conventional wisdom holds that anarchists don't believe in laws. If, however, most peoples' definition of "anarchy" is chaos or lawlessness, what could be more chaotic and lawless than laughing in the Grand Designer's face and claiming He made a mistake in creating us this way? Maybe the real "anarchists" are the statists, since they don't even observe the laws of nature.

 

[fatjohn]

Really? Do you live in a State Gulag?

If your answer is no, then you are a versed and experienced anarchist. Even in this most tyrannical of states, you live 95% of your life in anarchy. Every interaction you have with others all day long that does not involve an intervening agent by the state, every voluntary action you take, every transaction you make is made in anarchy. You have no problem with this anarchy because you can see it's value, you enjoy the benefits of it's outcome. When it's outcome may not be exactly as you personally desire, you'd just as soon hire a thug with a fancy hat and a big gun to force people to do as you wish.

I know, this is all so difficult for you. Things are much easier when the guys with guns do the thinking for you.

Sow, what are the anarchist complaining about then? Don't they have what they want? or 95% of it? Trolololololo....