Environment: A Plea To Fellow RP Supporters

metadjinn

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Jan 22, 2012
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Let me introduce myself by saying that I am a NJ Libertarian who has avidly supported Paul's campaign. I have donated, spread the word, and will vote for him.

With that said, are there any other RP supporters who would like RP to re-consider his stance on global warming? Specifically the accusation that it's a "hoax" on his official issues page? Look, the solutions to climate change are less than clear. Exactly how it will occur is also up for debate. But to say it's a 'hoax' is more or a less a fringe conspiracy in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence and concensus. The reason I distrust the military industrial complex is because of how many times they've betrayed us and lied to us. But hasn't the scientific community been reasonably honest and contributed a lot to society? Hasn't it historically admitted its mistakes and moved human progress further?

Furthermore, when I advocate Ron Paul, people say that he has good ideas but he is an idealogue. I retort that sometimes he sounds like that, but if you dig deeper into his argument there is a lot of truth to that. However, he seems to REFUSE to budge that the free market and property rights could POSSIBLY be an insufficient solution to the environment, even though as someone who studies economics, I would expect RP to understand that the incentives to treat a shared resource well are all screwed up. It's a well studied problem known as the tragedy of the commons. The property rights arguments fails when irreversible damage is done to the environment, or in the cases where powerful lobbying industries can run misinformation campaigns to smear a cause, like we are seeing with the climate change crisis.

As a libertarian, I understand that economic regulations tend to have unintended consequences, be easily corrupted, and hurt the consumer. But we all accept there are some things the free market fails to solve - like protection of property rights or national defense. Why do we refuse to see it might have limitations with the environment? A good example of a system like emissions trading working would be Iceland's fishing population. It was a shared resource where the free market overfished it and hurt everybody. When the government required licenses that could be traded to fish, Iceland's economy grew.

In short, RP looks worse when he sticks to his ideals even in the face of common sense. He looks bad when he chooses conspiracy over science. I want RP to win more than anything else in the world right now! Please help me convince him to become more palatable to the rational, free-thinking scientific community!
 
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I consider climate denial to be mildly embarrassing but oh well. I don't have a problem with expressing skepticism about future predictions, but it is fairly clear that some of the warming in the past was due to human activity.

Some libertarians support a few environmental regulations. They are consequentialists. Ron Paul isn't one of those, because he considers the use of preemptive force to be inherently immoral. That does make him an ideologue in a way.
 
Thanks Revolution9, I will definitely watch that whole video as soon as I find 90 minutes. Even if climate change is in fact mostly wrong, I think a lot of my points would still stand. However, I will refrain from expounding further until I have at least watched your video.
 
Thanks Revolution9, I will definitely watch that whole video as soon as I find 90 minutes. Even if climate change is in fact mostly wrong, I think a lot of my points would still stand. However, I will refrain from expounding further until I have at least watched your video.

I am watching it again. This fellow is better than Sagan at making science interesting and humorous. Even the first fifteen minutes will show you that this man is a true scientist and a better showman than Gore. He is on your side more than you would think and will point the way to maximize the alleviation of your concerns. He shows the nature of the cabal pushing this and goes into others they have engineered which caused more deaths...in the millions...than the enviro probs which they never solved or had blown out of proportion. I think that once you understand the nature of this gambit that you will understand why many well educated and informed people, using the scientific method have come to the opposite or a very different conclusion. The first clue you should have had is there is a psuedo stock market that is already bought into by the big nasty financial players.. You and I know they don't have OUR better interests at heart. So why believe them on this without a full investigation of your own? All those dead polar bears..four of them spread out over 100's of miles of shoreline who died during a storm and high waves. The population is thriving and increasing.

Great video.. I am watching it whilst typing this.

ETA:He just said he challenged Gore to a debate..Gore won't accept and he publicly called him a coward..Heh.. Gotta love this guy..real character.

Rev9
 
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By the way Revolution I'm assuming you watched this?

http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/

Do you have any thoughts? This Moncton guy is really entertaining but he has a political and journalist background, he's not a scientist and doesn't even have a single publication...

I think we need to seriously stop treating everything Ron Paul says as fact. For example, evolution is beyond a shadow a doubt just a fact of life not even worth debating because it's not a serious topic. Yet Paul considers it "just a theory". I love Ron Paul on a lot of the issues but I think he is not a scientist and just accepting something because he says it is a bit of hero worship. I want a candidate who has supporters who are constantly challenging their own viewpoints and the viewpoints of their candidate to get to the right answer, which I don't see happening with Obama or Bush type candidates who both had zombie supporters who treated their politics like a religion. It's seriously disappointing to see that attitude with some Ron Paul supporters.

Again, let's debate the climate change ideas to death before we do anything drastic. But I'd like to see more evidence that it's a HOAX, which is quite a different view than "I'm not convinced."

Furthermore nobody addressed my central point - is there ANY point where some of you would concede that there are problems that the free market can't solve besides the problems that you already accept the free market can't solve (national defense for example)?

Also something to consider. I notice a lot of the media sources trying to smear climate change science are trying to smear Ron Paul. I think they are all owend by Murdoch (WSJ, Fox News etc). I'm actually more suspicious of an ANTI climate change "hoax" than a climate change hoax.
 
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By the way Revolution I'm assuming you watched this?

http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/

Do you have any thoughts? This Moncton guy is really entertaining but he has a political and journalist background, he's not a scientist and doesn't even have a single publication...

I think we need to seriously stop treating everything Ron Paul says as fact. For example, evolution is beyond a shadow a doubt just a fact of life not even worth debating because it's not a serious topic. Yet Paul considers it "just a theory". I love Ron Paul on a lot of the issues but I think he is not a scientist and just accepting something because he says it is a bit of hero worship. I want a candidate who has supporters who are constantly challenging their own viewpoints and the viewpoints of their candidate to get to the right answer, which I don't see happening with Obama or Bush type candidates who both had zombie supporters who treated their politics like a religion. It's seriously disappointing to see that attitude with some Ron Paul supporters.

Again, let's debate the climate change ideas to death before we do anything drastic. But I'd like to see more evidence that it's a HOAX, which is quite a different view than "I'm not convinced."

Furthermore nobody addressed my central point - is there ANY point where some of you would concede that there are problems that the free market can't solve besides the problems that you already accept the free market can't solve (national defense for example)?

Also something to consider. I notice a lot of the media sources trying to smear climate change science are trying to smear Ron Paul. I think they are all owend by Murdoch (WSJ, Fox News etc). I'm actually more suspicious of an ANTI climate change "hoax" than a climate change hoax.
John Abraham puts far too much faith in government. He discredits himself in the last two slides. Who has the agenda? The government does. The government solution to climate change is tax everyone. That's their agenda. Throw more money at it by taxing everyone. There is no mention of legalizing industrial hemp.

If college professors and the scientific community wants to be taken seriously, then they need to address the facts. Widespread growth of industrial hemp would eat some carbon dioxide, the plastics made from hemp are compostable so that would reduce waste, the fuels made from industrial hemp are clean burning, and the high quality durable products made from hemp would reduce energy use by sidestepping planned obsolesce.

Scientists will completely discredit their entire profession if they don't start telling the truth. After all, this is the 21st century.
 
The Great Global Warming Swindle (mentioned by the introducer in the above video lecture)

[video=google;-5576670191369613647]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5576670191369613647[/video]
 
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By the way Revolution I'm assuming you watched this?

http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/

Do you have any thoughts? This Moncton guy is really entertaining but he has a political and journalist background, he's not a scientist and doesn't even have a single publication...

No.. I didn't watch any of the climate hypers BS. I already knew the solar system was heating up due to coming into the accretion disc of the milky way galaxy. There is no way anthropogenic warming is heating up every planet in the solar system. As well to claim Monckton is not a scientist is disingenuous. He was science advisor to Thatcher. I think you are bought and sold into the global warming agenda and it causes cognitive dissonance to have it refuted so your brain looks for an out.. In this case Lord Monckton has not qualified in your mind because he was 100% correct in his presentation..yet his proofs and evidence show he well know the scientific method. Do you?

Rev9
 
Of course we have climate change!

Just like we have been having for thousands of years!
 
To tell you the truth for this election I don't really care. The eath isn't going to burst into flames in the next 5 years so for now I'm worried about the govt dragging me out of my house to go fight a war in a desert somewhere. Just to ad to this I'm pretty sure he's said he knows the earth has got warmer but he doesn't believe the world is gonna end because of it and all of those Crazy predictions of the world sinking, its just another scare tactic to get people to give up freedom for GOVERNMENT safety.
 
There were and always will be passionately made causes to use force to rob other people. Climate change is one of them. It is a hoax. But it's irrelevant. Ron Paul's position is that you can use any amount of YOUR money for any cause you want or for no cause, but you have no right to force others to pay for what you think is good. Unless it's spelled out in the Constitution.
The Constitution says nothing about climate change. Good look convincing 3/4 of the states to pass an amendment to tax Americans to address global warming.
 
@hoax: it could be, not entirely sure.

But when it comes to hard scientific evidence, there's no hoax that our planet is becoming a bit toasty ;)

 
Global Warming is a FRAUD, follow the carbon credits to find out who will be making TONS of money. Do you seriously believe these people are doing it for the environment? Besides, targeting plants for starvation by removing their food is discrimatory and Paul will never agree to that. :p
 
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Everyone wants a clean environment (whether global warming is a fact, or not "16 Scientists Have a Message for Elected Officials on Global Warming: ‘Drastic Action’ Unnecessary" http://www.theblaze.com/stories/16-...on-global-warming-drastic-action-unnecessary/)

I like Ron Paul's stance and also agree that progressives use the global warming agenda to push one world government, government land grabs, world-wide redistribution of wealth (carbon tax) and violation of civil rights, etc. (Study United Nations Agenda 21 to see the real goal of the "climate change" agenda)

Do you realize that Ron Paul thinks pollution laws should be TOUGHER and that emission standards should be set by states or regions, not Washington (federal).

We can have a clean environment without trashing the Constitution.
If you believe that world government and world redistribution of wealth is a good thing, realize that you're talking about citizens that have an average income of $2 per day and that global government = global poverty. The best thing America can do for poverty (in America, or world-wide) is to be SUCCESSFUL/wealthy.

Immigration by the numbers -- world poverty and gumballs -- updated 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE



Welcome to the forum. Hope you find the answers you're searching for -- seek and you will find!
 
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Global warming is a FACT - however the people advocating changes in policy are fraudulent. The science is not a hoax, but the people advocating the change are basically out to make profits and exploit politics. It's basically going to become the next Black Gold (look @ how Rockefeller ran circles around our government).
 
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