A new site vision; a new era

so.. when you go with the new domain - what will happen to ronpaulforums.com?* Are you selling it?* Going to maintain the domain registry?
Could just be me, but I'd rather be a part of this one than theguidepoint - which still.. after contemplating it for a few days sounds like a publication that the Jehovah's witnesses would leave at the front door.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses publication is “The Watchtower”, so I’m not seeing a strong correlation. Yesterday I found a pretty good list of new age type churches, I didn’t see any that really correlated to guide point. This is something that I am concerned about, per the point of not conflicting with others, so I understand the issue and concern, I’m just not sure if it is a big enough concern in this case. My bigger concern is something that would have a left or right connotation.

We’re approaching this change in a very pragmatic manner, there is no emotional attachment to any new branding; if something better comes up before a roll-out we can go with that. At this point we at least have a baseline, and people can be prepared for Liberty Forest to go away, which, BTW, we will maintain that URL as well.

Thank you for the input.
 
I like this line of thought. Something like a digest. Or journal. A magazinish web site of sorts.

I like this idea. We should have many planks... A forum for discussion. A "Liberty News Aggregate" (something like a Drudge Report for Liberty-related news stories). An education section... etc etc.

We SHOULD be so much more than simply a forum.

I do think we should honor Dr. Paul's name, but the lead site-name should be more general as to appeal to the most people possible.
 
The Jehovah’s Witnesses publication is “The Watchtower”, so I’m not seeing a strong correlation. Yesterday I found a pretty good list of new age type churches, I didn’t see any that really correlated to guide point. This is something that I am concerned about, per the point of not conflicting with others, so I understand the issue and concern, I’m just not sure if it is a big enough concern in this case. My bigger concern is something that would have a left or right connotation.

We’re approaching this change in a very pragmatic manner, there is no emotional attachment to any new branding; if something better comes up before a roll-out we can go with that. At this point we at least have a baseline, and people can be prepared for Liberty Forest to go away, which, BTW, we will maintain that URL as well.

Thank you for the input.

Yeah I don't know if I like the sound of "The Guidepoint"... doesn't have much bite or appeal or even any reference to our aims. Can't we think of something more appealing than that? Just my opinion...
 
In your discussion about a Foundational Knowledgebase, you mentioned building it on a wiki platform. I got the impression that would displace or at least lessen the prominence of the web forum side of things. Am I reading that right?
That would not be the intent nor hope. The base idea with the wiki would be to collect the wisdom of the forum for very stable subject matters. In a certain way, it is designed to enhance and leverage the forum since that is where the debate and discussion on the content of the wiki will take place, vs. using the wiki discussion pages.
The wiki certainly won’t touch the news cycle or any specific activism effort, the forum is ideal for that.


Wikis are useful for me, but I've never been able to see them as communities. I'll dip into a wiki on, say, Frank Zappa's music to pick up information on a band member's involvement on a certain track, and then I'm gone. Maybe that's just me.
Different people can end up with different reasons to read our knowledgebase. One main purpose will be to pick up information on a specific topic, but the design will allow to picking up other information in an easy way as well. Others may be interested to learn on a deeper level, while others could have interest to contribute to the knowledgebase development. All of this will become clearer once it starts to take shape, it’s had to take a little bit of a back seat to deal with a few other site issues first.


When the Mises Institute shuffled off its forum (now the very sparse libertyhq.freeforums.org), it was to purify a knowledge platform so that it could proactively provide information with little opportunity for unedited feedback. Instead of a 50 or 100 people posting multiple times a day (as with rpf), mises.org has 15 or 20 people who provide a post once a week or once a month. That to me is stiffer and less resilient.
I have no real information on why mises removed their forum, but can speculate that it was too low of a return for their effort, it generally is for any business or group with their level of funding. User content can also conflict with their core message.


I would also point out that "Liberty Forest" didn't become a very significant brand for anybody here that I know of. Nobody seems to refer to it as such.
It hasn’t, and you won’t find it on the web either (do a search). So it’s seen as expendable. It’s not a bad name but it hasn’t added much either, we can do better.


I presume everybody still thinks of it as Ron Paul Forums. And I think that's because the words "Ron" and "Paul" when joined together don't really encapsulate an individual human's identity any more as much as they are shorthand for a kind of compassionate conservatism where all the stupid fascist bits have been corrected by sensible libertarian and constitutionally derived solutions.
Interesting perspective, food for thought.


Replacing "Liberty Forest" with "Guide Point" is neither here nor there. Replacing "Ron Paul Forums" with "Guide Point" presents a couple of problems -

1. It will seem like a little bit of a betrayal to some.
2. You will unnecessarily have to build public perception of a brand from the ground up, probably with no significant marketing capital, instead of just using the words "Ron Paul" to signify the same brand.
As said, there has been no decision to this end, but changing the main URL in the future is not out of the realm of possibilities. Per point one, I’d understand that, but Ron always said it was about the message and not the person. He wants to see liberty, so the question is how do we best pick up the torch? I could certainly see a betrayal if we started to trash him on the site; we haven’t and won’t, even if he’s not perfect.

Point two is certainly a strategical matter, and something well considered. There are many pieces needed to determine a best path; for starters, consider how many people are coming in and going out with our current branding? How many people are searching for “Ron Paul”? (I can tell you that). How many people are leaving, thinking, “OK, this campaign failed, time to move on.” So if a new brand helps here, we’re a step ahead. Another part is our outreach, and being pro-active as a site. As I mentioned previously, I put the brakes on reaching out to candidates back in 2013, this was in part due to our branding, candidates were/can be hesitant to be associated with Ron Paul due to how badly he was smeared in the media. This is one of the consequences of having a legacy.

If there is a complete change in the URL (which remains to be seen) we will first be developing out the alternate branding first, build brand equity, and when the balance is right, we would switch. We would not just switch without some criteria and analysis. As an example, one consideration is to put the wiki on the new site and then later have the forum move over to it-- if it ever makes sense. Again, to be seen.


It's very valuable to know there's a place I can go where people are trying their best to perpetuate the ideals that Ron Paul espoused in the 2008 & 2012 presidential elections and during his terms as congressman. … RPF is my newspaper, because I know if something happens in the world that champions or threatens my values, I can pop onto the forums and people are probably already actively commenting on it and sharing information.
Thanks, and we certainly don’t intend to change that.


That said, if it can't earn its keep on that basis the owners have the right and legitimate motivation to change it how they see fit.
It’s hard to know this for sure, but the trends aren’t favorable. It’s worthy of discussion and contemplation.

Thanks.
 
I like this idea. We should have many planks... A forum for discussion. A "Liberty News Aggregate" (something like a Drudge Report for Liberty-related news stories). An education section... etc etc.

We SHOULD be so much more than simply a forum.
Agreed.


I do think we should honor Dr. Paul's name, but the lead site-name should be more general as to appeal to the most people possible.
This will be a more pressing question for us moving forward.


Yeah I don't know if I like the sound of "The Guidepoint"... doesn't have much bite or appeal or even any reference to our aims. Can't we think of something more appealing than that? Just my opinion...
The general problem is that if you go with a name that has a lot of bite or appeal for a certain group it will equally turn off another group. If you really consider our Mission, we have a message that appeals to everyone. So how do we encapsulate that? Encapsulate our message with “liberty” seems to make sense, but I don’t see it working. With such great appeal, why hasn’t Campaign for Liberty taken off? Everyone should be on board, right? I think it's time for a different approach.

There are a lot of brand names that have no inherent appeal. Why would Dell have appeal? Or HP? Or Google? Or Adobe? Or The Blaze? Or Breitbart? What’s important is the associations which the company is able to develop. With success, the brand name becomes more than what the names is.

Part of the problem with a political site, which is only part of our Mission, is that if you have a political sounding name within it you are at the mercy of how the media characterizes the words in your name. What may sound good today could be the next terrorist group. If we picked something too overused, it will end up being too left or right and we are turning people off at the start.

So these are part of the reasons why I don’t like names that have a direct and specific characterization. It is easier to up start, but for long term value and sustainability, building your own brand is a very good route.

Of course one of the biggest problems is that you not only need a good name, you need the URL to go with it. Of all of the TLDs out there, I only liked .com. A .org name is good, but we’re not an org. I like .us in some ways, but it also implies just a United States web site, which we’re not. The .com namespace has been pretty well picked over.
 
I'd like to set forth the idea of plagiarizing Ron Paul's slogan for a new moniker if it must be changed;

quote-truth-is-treason-in-the-empire-of-lies-ron-paul-36-26-69.jpg
 
As a general FYI, I'm not going to get into a public discussion on potential URLs, and posting something will only do harm to an idea.

If you have a serious idea PM or e-mail me, just remember the criteria in the OP. I also would exclude anything that has any sort of negative connotation such as fighting against the government or whatnot.

Thanks.
 
The Jehovah’s Witnesses publication is “The Watchtower”, so I’m not seeing a strong correlation. Yesterday I found a pretty good list of new age type churches, I didn’t see any that really correlated to guide point. This is something that I am concerned about, per the point of not conflicting with others, so I understand the issue and concern, I’m just not sure if it is a big enough concern in this case. My bigger concern is something that would have a left or right connotation.

We’re approaching this change in a very pragmatic manner, there is no emotional attachment to any new branding; if something better comes up before a roll-out we can go with that. At this point we at least have a baseline, and people can be prepared for Liberty Forest to go away, which, BTW, we will maintain that URL as well.

Thank you for the input.

Sorry but I had to chuckle at Opal's comment as I thought the same thing, though not re the JWs (because, as you say, their magazines are Watchtower & Awake!). What GuidePoint.com made me think of is another Christian magazine(s) publisher/group that has been around for 71 years called GuidePOSTS.org. From their "About Us" page:

"Our Founders' Timeless Vision: Dr. Norman Vincent Peale and his wife Ruth Stafford Peale cofounded Guideposts in 1945. They envisioned an organization that would help people from all walks of life achieve their maximum personal and spiritual potential. The Peale legacy continues powerfully today in our vision for the future — to offer people products and services that inspire, encourage, and uplift..."
https://www.guideposts.org/about-us

So I'm not sure if the masses-in-general would ever confuse the two...(?) and/or whether it might help vs. hinder.

I'm all for .com's vs. ALL the other TLDs. .COM is the original & perpetual ace, no doubt about it. True about slim pickings in .com's, though.

I was looking at the thesaurus for synonyms for liberty. There were pages & pages, so I didn't look through all of the associated possibilities. But the word Independence stuck out, though looking at .com's, it's pretty much covered, such as:

IndependencePoint (sounds like a mountain peak, I suppose; the .com is taken, but the .net is available, defeating my own argument).

IndependenceSquare (a gathering place to meet & share knowledge; .com is taken, though .net is available).

IndependenceSchool (sold out, .com, .net, .org).

My favorite, since having two words begin with the same letter is always a good memory enhancer:

IndependenceIntel.com is available ($8.99 at namesilo.com; the entire string of TLDs for that are available: .com, .net, .org, .biz, .info, .us, .pro, .club, .co).

Ditto the longer version, IndependenceIntelligence.com, all the above TLDs are also available for this one.

Independence has a historic, nostalgic, "Founding Fathers" ring to it (maybe only for us "old-timers"?), and the Intel part is for your database of knowledge. It also signifies "self-reliance," self-determination, etc.

Just an idea. I confess I'm more inclined toward "niche marketing" (specifics-branding) than the "open-ended" non-specific, but I understand your point that being "too specific" will turn-off one group or another, especially those Bernie-Brainwashed youngins'. :)

Lastly, this was a hot & hopping place when I first discovered it in the Fall of 2007 and it was a blast! Though RP turned out to be a heartbreaker for many. (Whatever happened to Granny with the big RP Class-A RV painted red-white-blue who traveled all over the country with her monkey?)

Even though I haven't commented much since then, I have continued to visit here over the years knowing I could find great discussions & opinions by the RPF "old-timers" on various news topics of the day, including the most recent Rand vs. Trump vs. Cruz, etc.

So thank you for all the chills & thrills! :)
 
Sorry but I had to chuckle at Opal's comment as I thought the same thing, though not re the JWs (because, as you say, their magazines are Watchtower & Awake!). What GuidePoint.com made me think of is another Christian magazine(s) publisher/group that has been around for 71 years called GuidePOSTS.org. From their "About Us" page:

"Our Founders' Timeless Vision: Dr. Norman Vincent Peale and his wife Ruth Stafford Peale cofounded Guideposts in 1945. They envisioned an organization that would help people from all walks of life achieve their maximum personal and spiritual potential. The Peale legacy continues powerfully today in our vision for the future — to offer people products and services that inspire, encourage, and uplift..."
https://www.guideposts.org/about-us

So I'm not sure if the masses-in-general would ever confuse the two...(?) and/or whether it might help vs. hinder.
Thanks for all of the input -- and you should post more. :)

I'm well aware of the guidepost site as I did a lot of research on usage of the word "guidepost" - which was an earlier base word that was considered. It was ruled out for a variety of reasons but its association to the Christian site never come up as an issue with the advisors and experts I talked with. Guidepost is a common dictionary term with a concrete meaning and is well used in many things. So while there is a minor connection I don't see it as very strong, and I'm not seeing how they have a bad reputation that we'd want 100% distance from. Most people don't know about it.
 
Hey, let's do a podcast. :)

Just put it up in the corner some place.

This 100x.

This is what people want nowadays. Convenient and entertaining content. They want something they can listen to while they are busy with their career or life in general or a video to look at while lounging at home in front of the tv/computer. Some type of video podcast that keeps us in the loop on current events from a liberty minded perspective.

We already have the Ron Paul Channel and excellent podcasts like the one Tom Woods provides, but there is still no comprehensive video podcast that incorporates both techniques that would appeal to an average citizen. The Young Turks appeals to progressive lefties, Glenn Beck appeals to tea party conservatives, yet there is still nothing like either of those for true libertarians. We have a mish mash of that content among many different podcasts, it just needs to get consolidated and easily accessible via Youtube.

Easier said than done, I know. Start small, see where it goes, work on it, build it up.

Still, I can't think of a better way to spread the message using popular modern forms of media and technology. I had high hopes that Truth In Media, Ben Swann's project was going to become something like this, it was arguably well funded, using kickstarter cash, but it ended up being just a basic news site, with a greater emphasis on articles, rather than videos and Ben is now working with another local news station. Ah well.

Just my two cents.
 
Yeah I don't know if I like the sound of "The Guidepoint"... doesn't have much bite or appeal or even any reference to our aims. Can't we think of something more appealing than that? Just my opinion...

I'D HAVE GONE WITH 'BLACK LIVES MATTER'

ANYONE WHO WON'T CLICK ON THAT IS HOPELESS ANYWAY
 
BUTSRSLY,

THE FIRST QUESTION IS

IS IT GOOD FOR PEOPLE TO DO FORUMING

THE NEXT QUESTION IS

WHERE SHOULD I LOCATE MY FREE HUGS CONVENTION
 
My question in all this is what will you contrive that stands some chance to have an actual, palpable effect?

Look at Black Lives Matter. Someone vomited forth this idiot hashtag from their shriveled intellect and it caught. Now, countless dullards of all manner of denominations are on board this derailed freight train to hell, marching, whining, threatening, demanding, twittering, mastur... oh never mind.

The point is that all high-minded philosophizing aside, a simple, clear thing is what is needed. Something that will cause people to act. Something that will catch people's imaginations. This is a tall order because you do not have stupidity on your side, which makes things tons easier in a culture now and apparently hopelessly addicted to idiocy of almost any form.

Is there anything sane, rational, and decent that would bring people together to make themselves heard and felt to the end of furthering the cause of human freedom?

That is the question you need to answer.
 
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My question in all this is what will you contrive that stands some chance to have an actual, palpable effect?

Look at Black Lives Matter. Someone vomited forth this idiot hashtag forth from their shriveled intellect and it caught. Now, countless idiots of all manner of denominations are on board this derailed freight train to hell, marching, whining, threatening, demanding, twittering, mastur... oh never mind.

The point is that all high-minded philosophizing aside, a simple, clear thing is what is needed. Something that will cause people to act. Something that will catch people's imaginations. This is a tall order because you do not have stupidity on your side, which makes things tons easier in a culture now and apparently hopelessly addicted to idiocy of almost any form.

Is there anything sane, rational, and decent that would bring people together to make themselves heard and felt to the end of furthering the cause of human freedom?

That is the question you need to answer.

The absolute first thing that needs to happen is for people to come back together here. Or just call it quits and separate if they feel it isn't worth it anymore. No sense in hanging around just to be a Debbie Downer.There is a great deal of division. Some natural and some manufactured. This division is a product of politics. What needs to happen (and this is just me talking) is to return to things that are meaningful. I'm not offering the notion that things that have been discussed and done here over the last couple of years aren't meaningful. I'm just saying that we are at a crossroads where it is likely best to get back to grassroots philosophy. That in itself is of great importance. An "effect" in itself.

I'll tell you something, osan. I read most of your postings. I don't disagree with you too often. But they're too damn wordy. So is Bryan. In fact, I'm still wading through the fundamental knowledgebase stuff. Between the two of you in the same thread yuns give me a headache sometimes. I used to be like that myself. It became more of a barrier in discussion with others for the simple fact that they just didn't understand what I was talking about. Or where I was headed. Or why. And people told me this. So, then, I had to work back to the basics in order to be able to talk with them on their level. And it worked. Prior to that, I'd more likely have just said to heck with it and not bother wasting my time. Which I did. Often. This is/was a mistake. We need to get back to normal, basic stuff that everyone understands. Most here, I accept, do and are able to comprehend elevated language and concepts. But not in the real world, man. They just don't. And I say this respectfully. I mean no ill will in saying this. Best to take a good look in the mirror (me included) and try to figure out what we can do better. That's what has to happen first.
 
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Great idea! I hope it works out!

However, I personally think the time for Liberty is past and we as a nation are far beyond repair. It was a good run guys but I think our time should now be spent trying to survive what's to come.
 
Great idea! I hope it works out!

However, I personally think the time for Liberty is past and we as a nation are far beyond repair. It was a good run guys but I think our time should now be spent trying to survive what's to come.

Okay. Later. Check in once in a while and let us know how things are going for you.
 
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My question in all this is what will you contrive that stands some chance to have an actual, palpable effect?

Look at Black Lives Matter. Someone vomited forth this idiot hashtag forth from their shriveled intellect and it caught. Now, countless idiots of all manner of denominations are on board this derailed freight train to hell, marching, whining, threatening, demanding, twittering, mastur... oh never mind.

The point is that all high-minded philosophizing aside, a simple, clear thing is what is needed. Something that will cause people to act. Something that will catch people's imaginations. This is a tall order because you do not have stupidity on your side, which makes things tons easier in a culture now and apparently hopelessly addicted to idiocy of almost any form.

Is there anything sane, rational, and decent that would bring people together to make themselves heard and felt to the end of furthering the cause of human freedom?

That is the question you need to answer.
An excellent question, which I will examine within framework of the Liberty Blueprint that I put forward.

You are correct that the high-minded philosophizing won’t get the job done, but it does serve as a foundation for all other things to come from it. The Foundational Knowledgebase, Part #1 of the Liberty Blueprint [1. Educational guide points on the definition of liberty.], will have two level of explanation, one is a short form that is easy to read and gives simple explanations of the material. The long form will get into the cutting edge of liberty thought and be geared for the die-hard high-minded philosophizing type. The simple form however is still not a tool to win people over to liberty beyond being used as an educational point for a single issue. The Foundational Knowledgebase can serve as an education system for certain analytical learning styles but the point stands, the high-minded philosophizing won’t get the job done.

To seize the moment or capture an audience, we do need as you say, something that will catch peoples imagination. This is Part #5 of the Liberty Blueprint [5. a) Outreach to connect our educational programs to new people. b) Execution of the programs], where Part a) is the development of the marketing campaign material and Part b) is the executing of the campaign. Exactly what that is, how it will look like is something that no one person can define. This is its own process and can change daily based on the news cycle. Ideally the site and the liberty movement can do better to coordinate with this.

What we have found however, is that this is not enough. In the “state of the movement” thread [MENTION=36577]presence[/MENTION] pointed out (to which I’d agree) that a lot of the liberty movement was lost since they did not get entrenched into the liberty mindset, some were single issue voters, some just caught on to the Ron Paul campaign. This is why Part #4 of the Liberty Blueprint is important [4. Educational programs to teach what liberty is, why it’s important and how to defend it.] Once we do capture peoples imagination, then what? We can’t just send them off to the Foundational Knowledgebase and say “read all of this” – no, we need structured and well thought out educational material and pathways that will drive people to change their viewpoints on a fundamental level.

One key however is that all of the material within Part #4 and Part #5 of the Liberty Blueprint has to be philosophically sound within the Foundational Knowledgebase, Part #1. Without this, the message gets confused and obfuscated; people in our own ranks won’t even be aligned.

This also assures we have real substance to our Mission and campaigns. With lots of other movements, if you look under the hoods, they aren’t based on much substance; we are, we just have to communicate that.

So in this way there are three very separate layers of effort and material: captivate, educate and foundation. The captivate layer is very dynamic and creative. The educate layer is stable but adapts to the times, technology and learning styles. The foundation layer is left for the high-minded philosophizing and should hit a very stable state. Without all three, we get nowhere, or gains are limited. This can be seen within the Ron Paul 2008/2012 campaigns; the campaigns were part of the outreach (part #5), but we lacked in the other areas.

Another important part of #5 is that once we have someone’s attention and they are in our camp, we need a way to make sure that people progress within the education material. This can be done with having mentors, structured programs, progress tracking and monitoring and the like. This also has to be done in a palpable manner, but the point is, once someone is done with an education program the success rate that they are really onboard the movement is much higher. Putting together a successful educational system is also its own challenge. Of course there is a lot of education material out there within Part #4, it wouldn’t make sense to redevelop that, but it’s not well structured, vetted or packaged up within a system that is easy to use.

So in a nutshell, we need lots of pieces to come together. I can’t do it all, but want to structure the site to be a hub to get this done for the people who actually want to make a difference. This is where the Mission Advancement Framework (MAF) comes in, which really has a few goals:

-- Make it desirable for people to want to contribute.

-- Plan before action is taken, including setting goals, expectations and making sure efforts play a proper role within the big picture.

-- Make it easy for people to contribute by having connecting workflows between different functional needs. In this way, it’s easy to do one small thing and have that effort benefit the whole; it can be similar to an assembly line, but not exactly either.

-- Limit failure points within groups.


If someone has a better plan, great, let’s discuss it. If someone can develop a better Liberty Blueprint, I’ll be willing to debate that too.

Rather than seeing thing as being over-thought, as some here have suggested, I think the movement has done the exact opposite, these issues have been completely under-thought. We need a holistic master plan; I submit the Liberty Blueprint as being it.
 
Great thread Bryan. This almost makes me feel like I want to be back and involved... I know the liberty movement is very right leaning, I also know it was not always the case. I will always claim that you need liberty minded liberals to bring perspective and passion.

Everyone has their input about what...caused some of all this... I don't know how it started, but seeing things written on this board like "I think Left wing political positions of any kind should be banned" was a nice, firm, and 'point taken' sorta ending for me.

I'm very effective at getting Bernie Supporters to our way of thinking.. so my activism has been mostly focused there.

Society will never be ruled by one reality.
 
Great thread Bryan. This almost makes me feel like I want to be back and involved... I know the liberty movement is very right leaning, I also know it was not always the case. I will always claim that you need liberty minded liberals to bring perspective and passion.

Everyone has their input about what...caused some of all this... I don't know how it started, but seeing things written on this board like "I think Left wing political positions of any kind should be banned" was a nice, firm, and 'point taken' sorta ending for me.

I'm very effective at getting Bernie Supporters to our way of thinking.. so my activism has been mostly focused there.

Society will never be ruled by one reality.


This is one of the common problems I see these days. People throwing these Bernie supporters to the sideline. We know that their socialist beliefs are opposite to our free market individualistic philosophy, but many of us do share one crucial element. That is hate for the status quo. Just look at how mad Bernie supporters are at the current electoral government system. We need to find an effective way to tell these people that yes, the government is corrupt, but what you want to replace it with is not a realistic and free solution.

I personally find it hard to appeal to these people as they love entitlement rather then independence. I just know there must be a way.
 
This is one of the common problems I see these days. People throwing these Bernie supporters to the sideline. We know that their socialist beliefs are opposite to our free market individualistic philosophy, but many of us do share one crucial element. That is hate for the status quo. Just look at how mad Bernie supporters are at the current electoral government system. We need to find an effective way to tell these people that yes, the government is corrupt, but what you want to replace it with is not a realistic and free solution.

I personally find it hard to appeal to these people as they love entitlement rather then independence. I just know there must be a way.

Among other things, they are ripshit. I see more anger and motivation in this group than the post Boston 2007 liberty movement. We need each other, it just means compromising on things, like, I don't know, Theocracy language, banning people from speaking language (both sides FFS?!)... the usual suspects.
 
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