A New Currency System for the World

Ok going back and reading the rest of your post here is my comment. Keep in mind this topic has been debated on this forum several times as well as other places such as Mises, etc. It has been extensively kicked around by some of the best and brightest minds who advocate free markets. Not taking anything away from you just putting this thread in context.

If people can't inspect and authenticate something for themselves there is no inherent trust. Digital encryption is not something that builds inherent trust. To make a claim of secure with regards to anything is too bold for reality.

There is already an open source standard for gold and silver coin emerging in the market:

http://www.opencurrency.com/currencies/

Why reinvent the wheel? Improve upon an existing one already working.

That's incorrect. People trust their car will start in the morning. People trust their computer won't lose it's data. Most people don't have a clue how either operate.

You can't wire gold atoms. Until then, an open source digital currency is necessary to supplement Gold and Silver. Unless, you want to deal with a third party.

We are not advocating the replacement of Gold or Silver.
 
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That's incorrect. People trust their car will start in the morning. People trust their computer won't lose it's data. Most people don't have a clue how either operate.

I don't think people inherently trust cars at all but have more faith in a new one. Nor do I think people inherently trust their computers either. However I am content to agree to disagree.

You can't wire gold atoms. Until then, an open source digital currency is necessary to supplement Gold and Silver. Unless, you want to deal with a third party.

We are not advocating the replacement of Gold or Silver.

My suggestion for not reinventing the wheel is this. Pioneer or innovate open standards in areas of arbitration and physical delivery of transfers that can offer digital enhancements to what already exists.
 
That's incorrect. People trust their car will start in the morning. People trust their computer won't lose it's data. Most people don't have a clue how either operate.

You can't wire gold atoms. Until then, an open source digital currency is necessary to supplement Gold and Silver. Unless, you want to deal with a third party.

We are not advocating the replacement of Gold or Silver.

dwdollar, you seem pretty knowledgeable of this bitcoin currency. I have to say that the idea is quite brilliant since I though there could not be a way to have a scarce resource that is only information (wich allows for quick and specially cheap transfering). But I think that migh be its biggest downfall as well. My problem with this is that a improvement in computer technology could make the existing currency woth nothing. Or is the currency not expected to be able to hold value over time and allow savings and economical calculation with it? It is just a way for local markets to functions or does it want to go further?

If it wants to go further, then I think that big technological changes could kill the currency. For example, quantum computers could completely destroy the currency since it would allow for the creation of certificates in a very very cheap way, wich would allow for massive inflation. You could say that with gold there is the danger of finding a new huge mine, but still you have to mine the gold, wich is costly. Or even further, you could say that someone could discover a way to sinthetize gold, but that would be very very expensive energetically. It would be cost you more gold the energy necesary to buy the energy that the gold you could sinthetize with it.

What I want to say is that the probability of being able to massively inflate gold tends to 0, while the probability of being able to masively inflating this currency is way higher (maybe not inminent, but very posible). So, what is your take on this?
 
dwdollar, you seem pretty knowledgeable of this bitcoin currency. I have to say that the idea is quite brilliant since I though there could not be a way to have a scarce resource that is only information (wich allows for quick and specially cheap transfering). But I think that migh be its biggest downfall as well. My problem with this is that a improvement in computer technology could make the existing currency woth nothing. Or is the currency not expected to be able to hold value over time and allow savings and economical calculation with it? It is just a way for local markets to functions or does it want to go further?

If it wants to go further, then I think that big technological changes could kill the currency. For example, quantum computers could completely destroy the currency since it would allow for the creation of certificates in a very very cheap way, wich would allow for massive inflation. You could say that with gold there is the danger of finding a new huge mine, but still you have to mine the gold, wich is costly. Or even further, you could say that someone could discover a way to sinthetize gold, but that would be very very expensive energetically. It would be cost you more gold the energy necesary to buy the energy that the gold you could sinthetize with it.

What I want to say is that the probability of being able to massively inflate gold tends to 0, while the probability of being able to masively inflating this currency is way higher (maybe not inminent, but very posible). So, what is your take on this?

Bitcoin is a prototype and there are a lot of unanswered questions about it. It could evolve into a full currency or it could spawn dozens, maybe hundreds of child currencies. The model is based entirely in software, so it will be able to adapt to changing hardware. It has a theoretical limit of around 21,000,000. The currency can not be inflated past that point. To be honest, I can no longer be considered an impartial source of information, since I am building an exchange for them. But, I encourage you to check out the fourm over there. You can get more answers there, than I can type here.
 
Bitcoin is a prototype and there are a lot of unanswered questions about it. It could evolve into a full currency or it could spawn dozens, maybe hundreds of child currencies. The model is based entirely in software, so it will be able to adapt to changing hardware. It has a theoretical limit of around 21,000,000. The currency can not be inflated past that point. To be honest, I can no longer be considered an impartial source of information, since I am building an exchange for them. But, I encourage you to check out the fourm over there. You can get more answers there, than I can type here.

I alredy checked the forum, but I am very lazy when it comes to register to new forums, that is why I asked you here.

I alredy suspected that you were somehow involved in the project, and that its why I was asking you the questions. I am interested in this kind of currency experiments, and I am considering testing bitcoin in the linux server I have at home.

From reading currency experiments I have arrived to the conclusion that voluntary fiat currencies could work at a local level. In our present system the problem is not so much the fact that it is a fiat currency, but the fact that it is a fiat monopoly. So, if bitcoin, has a limit of 21.000.000 currency units it would be something like a distributed digital fiat currency system. Do you know how that limit is enforced and if it could change? And if it can be changed, how and who would take that decision?

Hugo
 
I alredy checked the forum, but I am very lazy when it comes to register to new forums, that is why I asked you here.

I alredy suspected that you were somehow involved in the project, and that its why I was asking you the questions. I am interested in this kind of currency experiments, and I am considering testing bitcoin in the linux server I have at home.

From reading currency experiments I have arrived to the conclusion that voluntary fiat currencies could work at a local level. In our present system the problem is not so much the fact that it is a fiat currency, but the fact that it is a fiat monopoly. So, if bitcoin, has a limit of 21.000.000 currency units it would be something like a distributed digital fiat currency system. Do you know how that limit is enforced and if it could change? And if it can be changed, how and who would take that decision?

Hugo

I agree. I think they can work on a worldwide level also, and this may prove that.

In theory, everyone controls the standard and the limit, since everyone downloads the client and verifies the hash chain. If a block can not be verified by the peers, it is thrown out. However, nothing is stopping a different group from breaking away and starting their own hash chain and unique currency.

As far as trust goes, I am approaching it from a supply/demand perspective. If people are willing to exchange other currencies for Bitcoin, then Bitcoin has value and people have a measure of trust in it. People are doing that right now. If an error occurs, or vulnerability is found, then the exchange rate will fall to reflect that problem.
 
Zoomer, I didn't mean to hijack your thread with Bitcoin solicitation. It turned out that way though. I apologize.
 
I agree. I think they can work on a worldwide level also, and this may prove that.

In theory, everyone controls the standard and the limit, since everyone downloads the client and verifies the hash chain. If a block can not be verified by the peers, it is thrown out. However, nothing is stopping a different group from breaking away and starting their own hash chain and unique currency.

As far as trust goes, I am approaching it from a supply/demand perspective. If people are willing to exchange other currencies for Bitcoin, then Bitcoin has value and people have a measure of trust in it. People are doing that right now. If an error occurs, or vulnerability is found, then the exchange rate will fall to reflect that problem.

I am probably going to give Bitcoin a try today. I read in the forums that the software was using GTK libraries for a server, and that sounded a bit weird. But I guess its a young project and they are not using yet a server-client structure.

And going back to world wide voluntary fiat currencies (not only related to bitcoin) there is a problem for that, and it is trust. While a fiat monopoly currency works on goverment violence, a voluntary fiat currency its completely built on trust. And I know that at the end all value is subjective and all that, but because of the qualities of gold and its natural scarcity vs the reality of fiat currencies, fiat currencies are based a lot more in trust than any other tradable object. Way more. At the end gold is based on "natural" rules, while fiat currency is based on human rules.

A practical example: Imagine there are two comunities in different phisical regions using some kind of voluntary digital fiat currency. For years everything is ok, but at some point a community (lets call it A) is doing better and starts to have a lot more of this digital certificates than the other community (lets call it B). Now people from community B (after enjoying all the products manufactured from community A) dont want community A from coming and buying all their stuff, they want them for themselves. So community B breaks the currency system pact, and only allows the set of certificates in had of community B. Now community A has a lot of worthless bits. The temptation for doing this kind of stuff is very very strong when the communities are big enough and the numbers get very large. Add in there the expected demagoguery from politicians, and you have a big problem.

With gold that can not happen or at least its very very difficult. Because, in a extreme case, community B could even try to ban gold as a currency or something crazy, but A could still use it arround the world.

Also, controlling someones honesty is quite easy at a local level, but not so much when the thing gets too big. There is more incentive to cheat and print (but this would not be a problem of bitcoin, since its distributed).

For example, when Argentina had its "corralito" a bunch of voluntary fiat currencies appeared and worked very well. And they tried to make them work at a national level, but they did not. People did not trust them outside their near zone of influence (and for a good reason if you ask me). Also, during the XIII and XIX centuries in the USA, bank notes were widely accepted near their zone of influence and at face value, but would be accepted only at discount when they were used far from the issuing bank (they would also loose value if people suspected the bank was over-extending, but that is a different issue).

This is the main reason why, in my opinion, voluntary fiat currencies can work very well at a local level, but wont work outside the local level.

PS: Anyway, enough monetary policy and I am going to try bitcoin.
 
I know several people in 'the movement' more knowledgeable than me who do not buy the BitCoin project. So caution and due diligence and all that recommended.
 
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I know several people in 'the movement' more knowledgeable than me who do not buy the BitCoin project. So caution and due diligence and all that recommended.

I just started using Bitcoin today. The software is open source (that means free as in free beer and free as in freedom), and the people in the chat and forum was friendly and wellcoming. People can think what they want, the system is completely voluntary and nobody is forced to use it. I think its a very interesting experiment.
 
I just started using Bitcoin today. The software is open source (that means free as in free beer and free as in freedom), and the people in the chat and forum was friendly and wellcoming. People can think what they want, the system is completely voluntary and nobody is forced to use it. I think its a very interesting experiment.

Interesting yes. But selling overpriced vaccuum cleaners is also voluntary, just sayin'.

Lots of ideas like this have come and gone. The odds are against a centrally planned currency that cannot be held physically.

Open source is good tho.
 
Lots of ideas like this have come and gone. The odds are against a centrally planned currency that cannot be held physically.

The system is not centrally planned. Its a bunch of individuals who are transforming into reality an idea they have and are demanding nothing from goverment but want to compete with any other currency system. Its called it being an entrepeneur :rolleyes: :p

Also, as I have explained in this same post before there are a bunch of local and voluntary paper currencies working arround the world. I believe they are not well suited for anything more than local, but that is still ok (and its only my opinion). There is a northern region of Brasil that is going through the recession without a lot of trouble because they have a local currency, and this local currency has protected them from the manipulations of the money monopolies. Local currencies have their place and their function.

In my opinion it is nothing something that is going to substitute gold and silver, but complement them. You should give it a try. Its free.

EDIT: Also, the control system is completely de-centralized.
 
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The system is not centrally planned. Its a bunch of individuals who are transforming into reality an idea they have and are demanding nothing from goverment but want to compete with any other currency system. Its called it being an entrepeneur :rolleyes: :p

Also, as I have explained in this same post before there are a bunch of local and voluntary paper currencies working arround the world. I believe they are not well suited for anything more than local, but that is still ok (and its only my opinion). There is a northern region of Brasil that is going through the recession without a lot of trouble because they have a local currency, and this local currency has protected them from the manipulations of the money monopolies. Local currencies have their place and their function.

In my opinion it is nothing something that is going to substitute gold and silver, but complement them. You should give it a try. Its free.

There may be merit to that.

If I have friends trading in dungeons and dragons figurines, I will still try to educate them of the fact that pewter has very little value - and that the value is not likely to sustain through economic downturn.
 
There may be merit to that.

If I have friends trading in dungeons and dragons figurines, I will still try to educate them of the fact that pewter has very little value - and that the value is not likely to sustain through economic downturn.

The thing is that this probably wont substitute saving in gold and silver. I would not recomend having all your savings in a system like this. BUT this could be very helpful to allow very cheap local transactions. Think about it, e-gold type systems are the cheapest think you can get to trade with digital coins. But they still make you pay because they are (suposedly) storing your gold. This system can be set up for near to nothing (everybody has a computer and a internet conection, and its open source) and you can make the common day payments with it, at a cost of nothing. So a system like this could make your day to day transactions almost free of any fee. You will use it to buy bread or clothes, but probably not for buying a house. The currency will have value as long as its accepted locally. This type of system but using paper currencies is working in different areas arround the world. Obviusly, nobody saves all its money in this kind of currency.

Also, there are sometimes big gold valuation changes, usually due to goverments regulations blowing in their face, fractional reserve, etc... Even if it does not happen in your area or country, a global change in demand for gold can affect you. This currency can help you isolate from this problems and give you some price stability. This is why competition is so good, because when something its not working you can move to another thing, and then later go back or whatever.

Maybe this currency can have another role (or maybe not), but this is the main function I see for it.

So the vault is decentralized too? Is this similar to the 'donate your computer cycles to alien research' type deals?

Hahahaha, yeah, kind of. You can check the specs.
 
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