55% of non native households collect gov. benefits as opposed to 32% of native born

[Cleaner44]

You cant have a Welfare State with Open Borders.

I never minded if people came to visit, but when they come to take our $#@! is when I have a problem with it.

Except we do... the welfare state has never been bigger and our borders are wide open.

Maybe the answer is for all of us to collect more from the government and then spend it on guns. The government should be giving us free guns anyway, its a human right and all. Hell the 2nd amendment states I have a right to bear arms.

GUN RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS!

I WANT FREE GUNS! (Paid for my the taxes that the government takes from me against my will so I can live in a civilized society of course)

 

[Swordsmyth]

Put the blame on politicians, and the people who would rather close the border instead of ending welfare. Closing the border is the worse solution, requiring ME to show my papers, restrict my freedom to travel freely, while still funding the welfare state.

Band-aids don’t work. Stop the problem at the source. Don’t tread on me!

You can't end welfare until you close the border.
A tourniquet may not be a solution but it can be a required treatment.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Except we do... the welfare state has never been bigger and our borders are wide open.

Maybe the answer is for all of us to collect more from the government and then spend it on guns. The government should be giving us free guns anyway, its a human right and all. Hell the 2nd amendment states I have a right to bear arms.

GUN RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS!

I WANT FREE GUNS! (Paid for my the taxes that the government takes from me against my will so I can live in a civilized society of course)

The Constitution requires Congress to arm the militia.
The Dick act defines the unorganized militia as every adult male.
I want my gun.

 

[Swordsmyth]

It's interesting that Social Security and Medicare are conspicuously absent from the welfare programs they counted.

Irrelevant.
They scam those too.

 

[acptulsa]

You can't end welfare until you close the border.
A tourniquet may not be a solution but it can be a required treatment.

Of course you can have open borders and no welfare. Countries did it for some odd nineteen hundred years, and a couple of millennia before that. What the hell are you talking about?

The Constitution requires Congress to arm the militia.
The Dick act defines the unorganized militia as every adult male.
I want my gun.

The Constitution does not demand the federal government get involved in militias at all. Why do you hate the Tenth Amendment?

Irrelevant.
They scam those too.

Who scams what is irrelevant to his point. But don't worry about it. I'm pretty sure he only made the point to trick you into revealing it was too adult a concept for you. Which you did.

 

[Invisible Man]

You cant have a Welfare State with Open Borders.

I hear this one a lot. But if it's really a true claim, then it's a big point in favor of open borders

 

[pcosmar]

It's interesting that Social Security and Medicare are conspicuously absent from the welfare programs they counted.

Perhaps because working folks paid into that Ponzi Scheme for 50 years.. like it or not..
and the return is not "welfare".

 

[acptulsa]

..

 

[Invisible Man]

Perhaps because working folks paid into that Ponzi Scheme for 50 years.. like it or not..
and the return is not "welfare".

Working folks paid money to be given to recipients of those programs. And when they themselves become recipients of them, it will be money paid by others.

This is the same as with all the programs listed in the study in the OP.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Of course you can have open borders and no welfare. Countries did it for some odd nineteen hundred years, and a couple of millennia before that. What the hell are you talking about?

You could not walk into Rome, from any old place on earth, and claim to be a Roman citizen.

That would be a good way to get sold into slavery.

But it's also a moot point...your example is comparing apples to bowling balls.

Just a hundred years ago there were not 8.5 billion people on the planet.

They can not all come here, not without radically changing the nation, for the worse, into something totally different, alien and foreign.

That will not "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

 

[Invisible Man]

Irrelevant.
They scam those too.

If so, then that's all the more reason to include those programs in the study.

In fact, the programs that were included in the study add up to a total cost that's only about 10% of Social Security and Medicare combined.

Whatever factor those two programs are, it's by far the biggest factor in the equation, and the study in the OP just left it out.

And it's not at all obvious to me that including Social Security and Medicare would have made the case against immigration stronger. It may even do the opposite, especially with respect to illegal immigrants, who pay taxes into those programs for work that will never count toward them ever getting to receive them. I think this amount is something like $15 Billion per year. If we're really going to do a cost benefit analysis of how immigrants affect the budgets of welfare programs, that amount is bound to offset a significant portion of the money they get from all those much smaller budget programs mentioned in the OP.

 

[acptulsa]

You could not walk into Rome, from any old place on earth, and claim to be a Roman citizen.

That would be a good way to get sold into slavery.

But it's also a moot point...your example is comparing apples to bowling balls.

Just a hundred years ago there were not 8.5 billion people on the planet.

They can not all come here, not without radically changing the nation, for the worse, into something totally different, alien and foreign.

That will not "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

He said, "You can't end welfare until you close the border." Where's the apple and where's the bowling ball?

The border was not wide open when The Relief was invented and implemented. So put it in context for me. Can you end welfare in an enclosed bowling alley, but not in a pie? Why?

If we're really going to do a cost benefit analysis of how immigrants affect the budgets of welfare programs, that amount is bound to offset a significant portion of the money they get from all those much smaller budget programs mentioned in the OP.

You want real world numbers? He never deals in practical matters. I think he just comes here to try to convince himself he has principles.

Principal, in this case fifteen billion worth, doesn't seem to concern him.

 

[Invisible Man]

You could not walk into Rome, from any old place on earth, and claim to be a Roman citizen.

But you could walk in and not claim to be Roman citizen and still be there anyway.

Also, when talking about the reasonability of walling off and blocking travel into and across plots of land, cities that are entirely occupied by land that has already been improved with owned, occupied, and currently in use structures, aren't interchangeable with countries that span continents and are made up of mostly empty land.

 

[Invisible Man]

Just a hundred years ago there were not 8.5 billion people on the planet.

They can not all come here, not without radically changing the nation, for the worse, into something totally different, alien and foreign.

Of course they can't. And the laws of economics have better means of handling that problem of scarcity and making sure that limited resources get best distributed among those who demand them, through mechanisms like price, than central managers in some far off government ever could.

The notion that the entire population of the world would squeeze itself into the borders of the USA and try to outbid one another for tiny plots of its land, while the entire rest of the land of the planet with all its space and resources just lies unused and waiting to be claimed for free by anyone who would merely go there and improve it, is nonsense. But if this make believe world of yours ever did come about, then what an awesome opportunity that would present to you and me to go and have our pick of places to live, work, and trade with one another anywhere else in the world we wanted, as free people, while 8.5 billion communists fought over the chance to be subjugated to the regime in Washington, DC.

 

[acptulsa]

Of course they can't. And the laws of economics have better means of handling that problem of scarcity and making sure that limited resources get best distributed among those who demand them, through mechanisms like price, than central managers in some far off government ever could.

Well, that's why the GOP has spectacularly failed us, isn't it? Self-identifying "conservatives" have just as much arrogant hubris among their ranks as progs. The government can do nothing right, but if it's my idea it's trying to implement, government should do it anyway.

 

[Invisible Man]

Well, that's why the GOP has spectacularly failed us, isn't it? Self-identifying "conservatives" have just as much arrogant hubris among their ranks as progs. The government can do nothing right, but if it's my idea it's trying to implement, government should do it anyway.

In 2008-2012, what you just said here was one of the central tenets that this website rallied behind.

 

[Snowball]

Yes. These levels will continue to rise, for the rest of the future. It is the end stage of capitalism that the plutocracy has gobbled up the assets, making it unlivable for the general population, who will resort to assistance, an assistance that is a dependency on the oligarchs. Most libertarians still don't understand this.

 

[acptulsa]

Yes. These levels will continue to rise, for the rest of the future. It is the end stage of capitalism that the plutocracy has gobbled up the assets, making it unlivable for the general population, who will resort to assistance, an assistance that is a dependency on the oligarchs. Most libertarians still don't understand this.

We don't understand what, O Mystical Sage? How you don't understand that you should never say "always", just as you should never say "never"? How you can say something which bears no resemblance to capitalism is its end stage? How you feel you can predict "the rest of the future", even though capitalism came back to Russia?

 

[Snowball]

We don't understand what, O Mystical Sage?

Only if you consider yourself, and those you're apparently speaking for to fall under the conditional I posted: "MOST LIBERTARIANS".


As the former Papal Nuncio to the United States said, just days ago:

Once it is understood that the present events have been intended in order to obtain certain results – and consequently to pursue certain interests on behalf of a minority part of humanity, with incalculable harm for the majority – we must also have the honesty to recognize the criminal mens [mind] of the authors of this plan. This criminal design also makes us understand the fraud perpetrated by civil authority in presenting certain measures as an unavoidable response to unpredictable events, when the events have been artfully created and magnified with the sole purpose of legitimizing a revolution – which Schwab identifies as the fourth industrial revolution – intended by the elite to the detriment of all humanity. The enslavement of authority is on the other hand the result of a process that began even earlier, with the French Revolution, and which made the political class the servant not of God (whose Lordship it disdainfully disregards) nor of the sovereign people (which it despises and uses only to legitimize itself), but of the economic and financial potentates, of the international oligarchy of bankers and usurers, of multinationals and pharmaceutical companies. In reality, on closer inspection, all these subjects belong to a small number of well-known very rich families.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...-World-Order&p=7057312&viewfull=1#post7057312

 

[acptulsa]

We don't understand what, O Mystical Sage?

Only if you consider yourself, and those you're apparently speaking for to fall under the conditional I posted: "MOST LIBERTARIANS".

That'll teach me to stick to yes or no questions, by God.