48 percent of college undergrads agree death penalty should be applied to "hate speech"

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48 percent of college undergrads agree death penalty should be applied to "hate speech"

College students turn more liberal, OK speech death penalty
By Paul Bedard, Washington Secrets Columnist November 03, 2022 09:55 AM

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ids-turn-more-liberal-ok-speech-death-penalty

90
 
In other news (or maybe this news?), college kids are idiots.
 
Maybe I've had too many cocktails tonight, but I'm not following these numbers...

48+20+28+38+23+15+15 = 187. So I'm not sure what is meant by "48%".

Also, according to the table, every single demographic aside from "conservative" (and just barely) agrees with the premise.

Also, the question basically begs the answer... it's confusing - are you agreeing that some cultures do use the death penalty for "hate speech", or are you agreeing that the death penalty should be used for hate speech?

Something seems amiss. Not that I would doubt the findings. I just can't jive the numbers...
 
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Maybe I've had too many cocktails tonight, but I'm not following these numbers...

48+20+28+38+23+15+15 = 187. So I'm not sure what is meant by "48%".

20+28=48

23+15=38

48+38+15=101, so a couple of those numbers were rounded up.

Also, the question basically begs the answer... it's confusing - are you agreeing that some cultures do use the death penalty for "hate speech", or are you agreeing that the death penalty should be used for hate speech?

Oh, yes. It was carefully designed to get the results it got.

For instance, how do you think it would have come out if the sentence, "In some cultures, some types of offensive speech..." had read, "In some cultures, speaking heresy against God..."?
 
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20+28=48

23+15=38

48+38+15=101, so a couple of those numbers were rounded up.

I guess... I've tabulated data before and I've never presented the numbers in that manner. I have no idea what those numbers actually represent.



Oh, yes. It was carefully designed to get the results it got.

For instance, how do you think it would have come out if the sentence, "For instance, in some cultures speech is considered..." had read, "For instance, in some cultures speaking heresy against God is considered..."?

I think that the numbers in favor (whatever those actually are) would have been diminished, because no one believes in God any longer.

The world tells me every day that I pray to an imaginary sky daddy. Well... I guess I do. And I will tomorrow morning. Just like every day.
 
Maybe I've had too many cocktails tonight, but I'm not following these numbers...

48+20+28+38+23+15+15 = 187. So I'm not sure what is meant by "48%".

Also, according to the table, every single demographic aside from "conservative" (and just barely) agrees with the premise.

Also, the question basically begs the answer... it's confusing - are you agreeing that some cultures do use the death penalty for "hate speech", or are you agreeing that the death penalty should be used for hate speech?

Something seems amiss. Not that I would doubt the findings. I just can't jive the numbers...

48 percent of those questioned "agree".

20 percent "strongly agree".

28 percent "somewhat agree".
 
This is not really surprising.

However ...

People might say anything to surveyors, especially when they think it's what they're "supposed" to say (rather than because it's what they actually believe) [1]. For that reason alone, any poll or study based on self-reporting (like the one referenced in the OP) should always be regarded with a gimlet eye, no matter what results they might indicate.

And even when respondents really do (think they) agree with something in the abstract - when doing so is no more expensive to them than filling in some circles on a questionnaire, or the like - things might actually turn out to be quite different in the not-so-abstract-or-costless real world. IOW: "Talk is cheap. Whiskey costs money."

Then there's the rather important matter of what, exactly, is being denoted by the concepts of "offensive speech" and "death penalty".

What do the respondents understand "offensive speech" to mean? The concept of "offensive speech" could easily and reasonably be considered to include things such as "fighting words" (i.e., things which are allowed for as actionable threats under libertarian theory). On the other hand, it could be understood (and is, by some) to include things such as merely refusing to use someone else's "preferred pronouns" (i.e., things which are not allowed for as actionable threats under libertarian theory).

What about "death penalty" (or any other "such harsh punishment", as the proposition is stated in the OP). Do the respondents understand this to refer only to capital punishment as the end result of a structured and formalized trial process? Or do any of them understand it to include the more immediate (and rather less formal) consequences of saying the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time in the wrong place? (If it is the latter, then our very own @tod evans might well agree with the proposition as it is presented in the OP - and he is certainly no left-indoctrinated college-boy snowflake.)

Finally [2] (and this is what really grinds my gears about things like this), notice how the wording of the proposition is engineered in such a way that it can be agreed to by both (1) careful-minded, precise, and dispassionately analytical respondents, and (2) ideologically doctrinaire respondents who endorse (threats of) violence in the cause of controlling speech and policing thoughts. Consider the first two sentences: "violence in response to offensive speech is not a new phenomenon" and "in some cultures, some types of offensive speech even merit the death penalty". Both of those statements are factual, and neither is an opinion over which people can reasonably disagree. They are used to set the context for the third statement, which is the proposition respondents are being asked to agree or disagree with: "some speech can be so offensive in certain cases that it merits such harsh punishment". Note the use of the word "merit" in both the second and third statements. In the second statement, it is used in a positive sense to convey the fact that "in some cultures" the "death penalty" is applied as a punishment for "some types of offensive speech" (regardless of whether it ought to be). But in the third statement, it can be interpreted in either a positive sense (e.g., "such harsh punishment" can be applied for "some [cases of offensive] speech", regardless of whether it ought to be) or a normative sense (e.g., "such harsh punishment" ought to be applied for "some [cases of offensive] speech"). This is a slippery, weasel-word equivocation. The dispassionately analytical can agree with the survey proposition in a "legalistic" sense while rejecting it in a "moralistic" sense, while the ideologically doctrinaire can agree with it in both a "legalistic" and "moralistic" sense.

Furthermore, the equivocation is weighted in favor of the ideologically doctrinaire response by the moral relativism inherent in framing the proposition in terms of the fact that "some cultures" allow killing people for "offensive speech". But what have "some cultures" got to do with it? Why are they explicitly mentioned, but not the ones that do not allow killing people for "offensive speech". What the hell does the fact that culture X allows killing people for "offensive speech" have to do with whether our culture ought to do so? It is difficult to avoid the suspicion that the whole point of that reference to "some cultures" is an attempt to cow respondents into agreeing with the proposition in a normative, "moralistic" sense (out of fear of being accused of the terrible sin of judging "some cultures" to be morally inferior, or even just wrong about something).



[1] This is especially apt to be the case for college students (and faculty). Ironically, few places seem to be more stifled by groupthink, thought-policing, and the fear of consequences for saying the "wrong" thing than modern college campuses.

[2] TL;DR for this paragraph (I typed all that out before I saw ASoL's post, and dammit, I ain't gonna waste it :p):
Also, the question basically begs the answer... it's confusing - are you agreeing that some cultures do use the death penalty for "hate speech", or are you agreeing that the death penalty should be used for hate speech?
 
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Somehow I do not find that comforting .

It's certainly not comforting - but it's also not quite as depressing.

And even most of the ones who "really mean it" won't ever actually do anything about it, apart from responding to polls or surveys or whatnot.

(In that way, it's a lot like voting ...)
 
This is not really surprising.

However ...

People might say anything to surveyors, especially when they think it's what they're "supposed" to say (rather than because it's what they actually believe) [1]. For that reason alone, any poll or study based on self-reporting (like the one referenced in the OP) should always be regarded with a gimlet eye, no matter what results they might indicate.

And even when respondents really do (think they) agree with something in the abstract - when doing so is no more expensive to them than filling in some circles on a questionnaire, or the like - things might actually turn out to be quite different in the not-so-abstract-or-costless real world. IOW: "Talk is cheap. Whiskey costs money."

Then there's the rather important matter of what, exactly, is being denoted by the concepts of "offensive speech" and "death penalty".

What do the respondents understand "offensive speech" to mean? The concept of "offensive speech" could easily and reasonably be considered to include things such as "fighting words" (i.e., things which are allowed for as actionable threats under libertarian theory). On the other hand, it could be understood (and is, by some) to include things such as merely refusing to use someone else's "preferred pronouns" (i.e., things which are not allowed for as actionable threats under libertarian theory).

What about "death penalty" (or any other "such harsh punishment", as the proposition is stated in the OP). Do the respondents understand this to refer only to capital punishment as the end result of a structured and formalized trial process? Or do any of them understand it to include the more immediate (and rather less formal) consequences of saying the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time in the wrong place? (If it is the latter, then our very own @tod evans might well agree with the proposition as it is presented in the OP - and he is certainly no left-indoctrinated college-boy snowflake.)

Finally [2] (and this is what really grinds my gears about things like this), notice how the wording of the proposition is engineered in such a way that it can be agreed to by both (1) careful-minded, precise, and dispassionately analytical respondents, and (2) ideologically doctrinaire respondents who endorse (threats of) violence in the cause of controlling speech and policing thoughts. Consider the first two sentences: "violence in response to offensive speech is not a new phenomenon" and "in some cultures, some types of offensive speech even merit the death penalty". Both of those statements are factual, and neither is an opinion over which people can reasonably disagree. They are used to set the context for the third statement, which is the proposition respondents are being asked to agree or disagree with: "some speech can be so offensive in certain cases that it merits such harsh punishment". Note the use of the word "merit" in both the second and third statements. In the second statement, it is used in a positive sense to convey the fact that "in some cultures" the "death penalty" is applied as a punishment for "some types of offensive speech" (regardless of whether it ought to be). But in the third statement, it can be interpreted in either a positive sense (e.g., "such harsh punishment" can be applied for "some [cases of offensive] speech", regardless of whether it ought to be) or a normative sense (e.g., "such harsh punishment" ought to be applied for "some [cases of offensive] speech"). This is a slippery, weasel-word equivocation. The dispassionately analytical can agree with the survey proposition in a "legalistic" sense while rejecting it in a "moralistic" sense, while the ideologically doctrinaire can agree with it in both a "legalistic" and "moralistic" sense.

Furthermore, the equivocation is weighted in favor of the ideologically doctrinaire response by the moral relativism inherent in framing the proposition in terms of the fact that "some cultures" allow killing people for "offensive speech". But what have "some cultures" got to do with it? Why are they explicitly mentioned, but not the ones that do not allow killing people for "offensive speech". What the hell does the fact that culture X allows killing people for "offensive speech" got to do with whether our culture ought to do so? It is difficult to avoid the suspicion that the whole point of that reference to "some cultures" is an attempt to cow respondents into agreeing with the proposition in a normative, "moralistic" sense (out of fear of being accused of the terrible sin of judging "some cultures" to be morally inferior, or even just wrong about something).



[1] This is especially apt to be the case for college students (and faculty). Ironically, few places seem to be more stifled by groupthink, thought-policing, and the fear of consequences for saying the "wrong" thing than modern college campuses.

[2] TL;DR for this paragraph (I typed all that out before I saw ASoL's post, and dammit, I ain't gonna waste it :p):

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Occam's Banana again.

//
 
It's certainly not comforting - but it's also not quite as depressing.

And even most of the ones who "really mean it" won't ever actually do anything about it, apart from responding to polls or surveys or whatnot.

(In that way, it's a lot like voting ...)

Or backing politicians that want to restrict speech... Or applaud companies that do the same... Or allow the state to fine and arrest people for "disinformation"...
All these people require is a somewhat plausible excuse to take away someone's rights and they'll fall right in line.

Why be a bully when you can have the government do your dirty work?
 
If so, then they were correct.

Unfortunately, they failed to deal with relative few who "really meant it" and did do something about it.

In the venn diagram of people who "really meant it" and people who "did something about it", the overlap between those two groups may indeed be relatively few.

It's impossible to prove the size of the first group,
but the group that "did something about it" was a provably extremely large group.

And when you're getting loaded into a train by men with guns, is there really a difference at that point, if they "really meant it" ?

And for the record, I don't necessarily buy the argument that relatively few "really meant it". Germans today would certainly like for you to believe that of course.
 
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