43 percent say socialism is a "good thing" for America

[ATruepatriot]

Can you quote me saying something that suggested I hated our imperfect Republic or preferred socialism/communism?

Would you make this same charge against Ron Paul?

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s, since before many here were born, and since before Ron Paul even became a notable figure. While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen. You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change. It's unrealistic and they have indeed changed. And since Ron's plan will never happen it changes the true cause and effect of what is happening and requires a different approach. Honestly I wish it were different but in reality it is not. And we can thank the dishonest communists who do not have any integrity, accountability, self responsibility, or sense of real cause and effect. In the mean time facilitating the communist wishes is supporting the communist agenda, and unlike ourselves, they really don't give a damned about this country at all, let alone ever promoting or allowing a free state as we would like.

 

[Ender]

I do not want to hand out MY hard-earned money for incentives, or welfare - not to foreigners OR multi-generational Section 8 folks who do not want to work.

I do not want to travel another 20 miles out my way, in gas and time, to look for an entry/exit point only to be stopped, questioned or searched by government goons. Or show my "papers". Or have my money confiscated just because I am close to the border and this "government" only permits carrying only up to $10,000 before it IS confiscated.

I do not want foreigners "registered" or "documented", because I do not want them to have loophole access to MY money when they appear at a local government office. I would MUCH rather have the lady at the counter say "I am sorry, you have no ID so you are not eligible to receive this or that benefit".

I do not want businesses to have to be forced to pay government minimum wage in lieu of "private contract rights". It will cause businesses to be deemed criminals if they get caught and either fined or fold up, it will provide more money to the Fed.gov by way of more taxation, and down the road IF businesses are still operating cause prices to rise. It will also cause businesses to hire less people because that is what minimum wage does.

I do not want a Constitution Free Zone, at the border, by the sea, N, S, E or W. My rights belong to me - not you, not the government, not DHS, not ICE.

Freedom is selfish, but it is also compassionate - IF one is willing and able to be productive and work.

Pretty much.

 

[oyarde]

No poll needed . Easy math . Six in ten Americans work . Half of those get more tax back than they paid . Gore , Kerry , Obama (twice) and Clinton basically got half the votes by representing the modern communist type slot on the ballot in the past twenty years. What does that tell you ?

 

[Ender]

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s, since before many here were born, and since before Ron Paul even became a notable figure. While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen. You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change. It's unrealistic and they have indeed changed. And since Ron's plan will never happen it changes the true cause and effect of what is happening and requires a different approach. Honestly I wish it were different but in reality it is not. And we can thank the dishonest communists who do not have any integrity, accountability, self responsibility, or sense of real cause and effect. In the mean time facilitating the communist wishes is supporting the communist agenda, and unlike ourselves, they really don't give a damned about this country at all, let alone ever promoting or allowing a free state as we would like.

Same ol' argument.

Ron Paul's POV is unrealistic so let's have more Big Gov to keep us safe from more Big Gov.

Go figure.

 

[Superfluous Man]

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s

I support the same constitutional federal immigration policy that the founders of this republic did when the Constitution was ratified, and that Ron Paul does today. How does that make me a hater of the republic? Federal immigration restriction, on the other hand, was a later innovation of the Progressive era that was only deemed constitutional by way of a living document approach to the Constitution.

While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen.

But I support the very same immigration policies that Ron Paul himself does (no wall, no requirements of employers to aid in immigration law enforcement, no requirement to show a passport to enter the country, no entitlements, no guarantee of citizenship just by being born here). So I'm not sure what you're talking about by bringing him into it. His cure is the same cure I've been promoting all this time. Do you also say he hates the republic?

You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change.

I'm not sure what argument of mine you're referring to. Can you please quote me making whatever this argument is and point out whatever in it led you to think I had that false premise ignoring those things?

 

[ATruepatriot]

No, that would be the forum statists that always bring things back to the border issue.

Most of us "free market/free trade/natural rights advocates stand with Ron Paul:

No entitlements.
A reasonable pathway to citizenship
No REAL ID
Reasonable protection at the border- yes- but do not turn it into a war zone.

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

 

[PAF]

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s, since before many here were born, and since before Ron Paul even became a notable figure. While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen. You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change. It's unrealistic and they have indeed changed. And since Ron's plan will never happen it changes the true cause and effect of what is happening and requires a different approach. Honestly I wish it were different but in reality it is not. And we can thank the dishonest communists who do not have any integrity, accountability, self responsibility, or sense of real cause and effect. In the mean time facilitating the communist wishes is supporting the communist agenda, and unlike ourselves, they really don't give a damned about this country at all, let alone ever promoting or allowing a free state as we would like.

The communist agenda/goal does not care one bit whether a border is open or closed. It is simply a mechanism to get people to rally for government action. All the communists want is businesses to be restricted from Private Property and Private Contract Rights, ensure a "Minimum Wage" else pay fines to the .gov, and ensure people are "documented" so that more (foreign AND domestic) will Fund the Fed. All while the Bill of Rights goes further down the tube.

It is working so tremendously well even Obama would be proud. The difference back when he was in office, Republicans did not fall for his buggy full of horse manure. With trump, they are.

 

[Superfluous Man]

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

And yet your entire point in this thread is to insist that we must depart from Ron Paul's strict constitutionalism with respect to immigration law. You seem to want it both ways.

 

[Ender]

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

What's with the "chasing your tail" comebacks? There is NOTHING in my post that goes against original principles of Liberty & Freedom.

And, I am quite educated on the Constitution- most here, who think they are, are not.

 

[PAF]

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

Ron Paul was a Congressman, the best there was, who tried to work "within the system" that we have (the CONstitution). After he left the House, he verbally stated that the "gloves are now off", and is trying to get people to understand freedom, liberty and fiscal responsibility. Not only here in America, but in Mexico and other places too.

I am sure that while Ron advocates the Constitution, there are many parts that he would disagree with when it comes down to it. He tried to work within the system, but it goes well beyond that.

 

[PierzStyx]

Not surprising.

Idiot kids brought up in socialistic, gynocratic institutions, more than half of all household receiving some form of socialist government cheese, and tens of millions of migrant invaders still doe-eyed over the failed socialist $#@!holes they just ran away from, and I'm, quite frankly, suprised that number isn't higher.

Stick a fork in this place...it's done.

Of the remnant, separate now, or die.



Four in 10 Americans Embrace Some Form of Socialism

Gotta love when a Socialist calls other Socialists idiots. It just demonstrates how blind Socialism makes you to reality, such as the fact that favoring any State institutional regulation of anything is Socialism. State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.

Just ask Comrade Bernie:

During the 2016 presidential campaign, Sanders said an open-border policy was “a Koch brothers proposal."

“That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States,” he said. “It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation-state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation-state or in a country called the United States or U.K. or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/bernie-sanders-i-dont-support-open-borders

Oh, I can hear you now. Your form of Socialism is magical and special and totally legitimate unlike all the other forms of Socialism which are bad. Same bullshit all other Socialists spew. And the Socialist hate for each other is nothing new. Your National Socialism is no less Socialist than Comrade Bernie's Democratic Socialism. Your hatred for his (differing?) form of Socialism was understood and explained by Hayek almost 80 years ago in The Road to Serfdom:

The communists and [National Socialists] clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties simply because they competed for the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic.

He even anticipated your fallacious arguments and justifications for your Socialism:

What is promised to us as the Road to Freedom is in fact the Highroad to Servitude. For it is not difficult to see what must be the consequences when democracy embarks upon a course of planning. The goal of the planning will be described by some such vague term as "the general welfare." There will be no real agreement as to the ends to be attained, and the effect of the people's agreeing that there must be central planning, without agreeing on the ends, will be rather as if a group of people were to commit themselves to take a journey together without agreeing where they want to go: with the result that they may all have to make a journey which most of them do not want at all.

The end product of your Socialism is the same as all others- Servitude and Serfdom. That you do not see it because you are all "doe-eyed" over your magical form of perfect Socialism prove snot just Hayek's point, but your own about how just how much people engage in slef-deception and fail to see the dangers of their own politics.

 

[ATruepatriot]

Same ol' argument.

Ron Paul's POV is unrealistic so let's have more Big Gov to keep us safe from more Big Gov.

Go figure.

Doesn't hold a candle to the big government the Communists have planned for us if allowed to follow through. Why is this reality so hard to see? Do I like big government or support it? Hell no... But this utopian bubble of no government and no restrictions is never going to happen, ever. Nice dream but very unrealistic, and in the meantime the Communist snowball is about to run us all over no mater what we believe or stand for. I hope at some point rational reality can come into play before we lose every and all opportunity to create this utopian state we want.

 

[Superfluous Man]

Do I like big government or support it? Hell no.

So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.

 

[ATruepatriot]

Ron Paul was a Congressman, the best there was, who tried to work "within the system" that we have (the CONstitution). After he left the House, he verbally stated that the "gloves are now off", and is trying to get people to understand freedom, liberty and fiscal responsibility. Not only here in America, but in Mexico and other places too.

I am sure that while Ron advocates the Constitution, there are many parts that he would disagree with when it comes down to it. He tried to work within the system, but it goes well beyond that.

The Ron Paul I have been following since Reagan was always a strict Constitutionalist. He has always made it clear that good or bad it is the law of the land, and if we don't like it then there is a legal process to change it with no shortcuts allowed. But it stands until we get off our asses and formally change it as written in the Constitution. He was NEVER an anarchist nor has he EVER promoted anarchy.

 

[PAF]

The Ron Paul I have been following since Reagan was always a strict Constitutionalist. He has always made it clear that good or bad it is the law of the land, and if we don't like it then there is a legal process to change it with no shortcuts allowed. But it stands until we get off our asses and formally change it as written in the Constitution. He was NEVER an anarchist nor has he EVER promoted anarchy.

I also agree that the Constitution is the Law of the Land. I feel that we must teach it, understand it, and return to it. Only at that point can the people be better educated to know what needs to be changed - NOT by what Common Core and educators of today are proposing (communism/nationalism). It is simply a mechanism, unfortunately written by central planners.

Anarchist, libertarian, yadda yadda... I just consider myself and individual who values Natural Rights, Private Property and Private Contract Rights, and the NAP.

;-)

 

[PAF]

So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.

That's what I thought too (that he is a restrictionist and does support growing government). In fact I think he made it perfectly clear.

 

[ATruepatriot]

So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.

No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble. It will always be there and it's never going away. Knowing this there are only two choices in reality less now or much much more later. Am I the only one who noticed this difference of reality vs fantasy has already weakened and divided the Libertarian party? It was once a real third party threat to the major parties and it stepped on it's own toes with this difference of reality vs fantasy. It was a sad thing to see after all the efforts I personally made to help promote the Libertarian party. The inability to agree on anything became a detriment and self defeating. Maybe someday... but never in the environment we have right now. Even Ron Paul, Justin Amash, and Rand Paul were smart enough to have recognized this reality and had to run as Republicans. Did we somehow miss this reality?

 

[ATruepatriot]

That's what I thought too (that he is a restrictionist and does support growing government). In fact I think he made it perfectly clear.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...-for-America&p=6800504&viewfull=1#post6800504

 

[PAF]

No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble. It will always be there and it's never going away. Knowing this there are only two choices in reality less now or much much more later. Am I the only one who noticed this difference of reality vs fantasy has already weakened and divided the Libertarian party? It was once a real third party threat to the major parties and it stepped on it's own toes with this difference of reality vs fantasy. It was a sad thing to see after all the efforts I personally made to help promote the Libertarian party. The inability to agree on anything became a detriment and self defeating. Maybe someday... but never in the environment we have right now. Even Ron Paul, Justin Amash, and Rand Paul were smart enough to have recognized this reality and had to run as Republicans. Did we somehow miss this reality?

As I said before, Ron tried. Justin, Tom and Rand are still trying, but they hit road blocks at every turn. The root cause is the way kids are being taight and what the "news" outlets slant. People do not have time or care to think on their own. I can not tell you how many times I am told "politics does not interest me" so they vote with the flow.

Ron himself has said that it was an experiment of freedom. People are naturally sheep and never miss what they don't know. All we can do is activate, teach and try to pass down to others what true freedom is really all about. They will either feel it and embrace it, or not.

Meantime I am not about promoting tightening the noose which is this central government.

 

[Anti Federalist]

State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.

If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

Yes or no?