Would Ron Paul stop illegal immigration?

[500grains]

This should be a top issue, and Bush betrayed us.

 

[Dr.3D]

YouTube - Ron Paul TV Ad: Immigration

 

[dannno]

Yes, Ron Paul would EFFECTIVELY stop the influx of illegal immigration without using inhumane tactics of "rounding up people", which this movement generally does not support.

If you want someone who is going to use violence and force to physically move the illegal immigrants out of the country and do nothing else to solve the underlying issues, then that is not going to be effective.

 

[dannno]

You have to remember that the reason why the illegal immigration influx occurred was because the US government forced the Mexican government to re-write their constitution with the passing of NAFTA. This caused millions of Mexicans who were doing a fine job supporting themselves on their land, agriculturally, and had been for several generations were suddenly kicked off of their land. Poverty Mexico doubled. That is why we had such a big influx of illegal immigrants.

If we let Mexico keep their sovereignty and got rid of NAFTA and stopped government programs that help illegal immigrants then that would go the furthest towards solving the problem.

 

[dannno]

My final point is that there is a lot of misinformation that has been used to rile people up against Mexicans. Stupid shit like saying they are all 'criminals' because they 'broke a law'. I'm sorry, but I grew up within walking distance of the largest illegal immigrant encampment in Southern California during the peak of the influx and never had one single problem. I didn't know any girls who were raped. I had a bike stolen, we think it was a white guy in a truck. Somebody tried to break into my house, I saw him, it was a white guy. The reason? Most people in my community were white. No surprises there.

If you're going to call people who cross an invisible line 'criminals' when they don't hurt anybody, they voluntarily exchange their labor for money, raise their family, which is the most important thing in their lives, then I'm going to call you out.

The reason WHY some Republicans have rallied against illegal immigration is simply to get votes. They don't have any intention of changing anything, all they are after is your vote. So sit back, calm down, the illegals haven't done anything wrong, they aren't going to hurt you. We just need to change our reward system and give Mexico back their sovereignty and everything will be OK.

 

[Lord Xar]

I disagree with danno on many points (still waiting on that "encapement" information I asked about), but I believe Ron Paul's solution would be viable and the best solution. BUT, stopping the handouts and welfare environment & nafta/cafta etc.. probably isn't gonna happen - with all the special interests groups, SO I think a heavy handed approach is needed and he'll probably go along with that for the simple fact - they are a huge burden and resource drain and if you can't rebuild the damn, you plug up the holes. I find the term "inhumane" funny because I was always taught, "You made your bed, now sleep in it..". If you break the law, and then find yourself in a situation that is less than perfect, oh well.

 

[ctnjason]

illegal is illegal is illegal to me....... there is NO difference to me between an illegal immigrant who works hard for his family or an illegal immigrant that rapes, steals, gets into gangs and uses up our social services. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. i was not always like this. i work in healthcare and see every day how our emergency room waiting areas look like mariachi fiestas. I dont want them to go without. that would be cruel BUT i want the same available and FREE healthcare that they get along with all the other "perks" that even taxpayers dont get.

 

[dannno]

illegal is illegal is illegal to me....... there is NO difference to me between an illegal immigrant who works hard for his family or an illegal immigrant that rapes, steals, gets into gangs and uses up our social services. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. i was not always like this. i work in healthcare and see every day how our emergency room waiting areas look like mariachi fiestas. I dont want them to go without. that would be cruel BUT i want the same available and FREE healthcare that they get along with all the other "perks" that even taxpayers dont get.

By your logic I should be in jail because the medicine I take is illegal under Federal Law. I'm sorry, but it is that position that is illogical and immoral.

Breaking a law is only immoral, it only makes a person "bad" if they are hurting someone else or taking something from someone else. If they partake in voluntary exchanges and don't hurt anybody, then they are actually much better than the average American. In fact, I WANT those people here. Entering the country legally or illegally is not a litmus test for how good a person is. Most of the time it is purely based on circumstance.

Anybody who thinks that people are inherently bad for breaking the law, even when the law is unjust, seem awfully statist to me. Not very freedom or liberty oriented.. or just haven't thought it through.

 

[dannno]

I disagree with danno on many points (still waiting on that "encapement" information I asked about), but I believe Ron Paul's solution would be viable and the best solution. BUT, stopping the handouts and welfare environment & nafta/cafta etc.. probably isn't gonna happen - with all the special interests groups, SO I think a heavy handed approach is needed and he'll probably go along with that for the simple fact - they are a huge burden and resource drain and if you can't rebuild the damn, you plug up the holes. I find the term "inhumane" funny because I was always taught, "You made your bed, now sleep in it..". If you break the law, and then find yourself in a situation that is less than perfect, oh well.

That is absolutely ridiculous. You want to take the heavy handed approach because we can't fix the problem correctly?? Speaking of a dam, you're never going to plug those holes until the welfare stops. So all you're doing is carrying buckets of water back to the reservoir, at which point they leak back through the damn again. Not very effective.

Not all illegals are a resource drain, the great majority of them drove California's economy WAAAYY up. It's the handouts that are the problem.

Your heavy handed approach is going to cause major racial tensions, it is going to cause legal citizens to get mixed up based on the color of their skin and they will be sent back without merit. There will probably be massive riots. This is in fact an idiotic way to do it because you are going to cause serious problems in areas that are heavily Mexican. Talk about breaking up families, you'll be responsible for breaking up millions of families because you have some artificial moral standard that you want to apply to people who are just trying to get by. No, that is a terrible plan.

Not sure what information you wanted before regarding the encampment. I grew up with it right there. I watched them play soccer almost every day. Then I read a book in college that thoroughly documented the community where I learned how it actually functioned.

 

[Lord Xar]

Danno, I've read your posts in regards to illegal immigration and you always seem to have your facts mucked up. Its been reported many times that its a net loss. 100's of hospital closures, schools overrun and subsequent taxpayer burdens for current AND future ramifications is NOT a 'boon' to the economy.

And for your analogy, I jaywalked once, its illegal - therefore I should go to jail. You are swinging in the air here, and it shows.

Illegals are a burden -- they are an economical, social, and in my eyes a cultural drain.

You believe in fighting the bigger battle of handouts and welfare, and that is noble & I agree, probably the best solution. BUT, its a solution soooo buried in special interests, social expectation and conditioning that I feel working on the more probable incremental solution is best ie: deportatation AND following/enforcement of the rule of law.

*in regards to this encapement you always talk about as if its the anti-illegals achilles heal, I want to know where it was and the name it went by. I have lived in Los Angeles for a long time and such an encampment doesn't ring a bell.

 

[Kotin]

Danno, I've read your posts in regards to illegal immigration and you always seem to have your facts mucked up. Its been reported many times that its a net loss. 100's of hospital closures, schools overrun and subsequent taxpayer burdens for current AND future ramifications is NOT a 'boon' to the economy.

And for your analogy, I jaywalked once, its illegal - therefore I should go to jail. You are swinging in the air here, and it shows.

Illegals are a burden -- they are an economical, social, and in my eyes a cultural drain.

You believe in fighting the bigger battle of handouts and welfare, and that is noble & I agree, probably the best solution. BUT, its a solution soooo buried in special interests, social expectation and conditioning that I feel working on the more probable incremental solution is best ie: deportatation AND following/enforcement of the rule of law.

you really think it would be easier to round em all up and kick em out than it would be to change the laws?!


wow.

 

[dannno]

Danno, I've read your posts in regards to illegal immigration and you always seem to have your facts mucked up. Its been reported many times that its a net loss. 100's of hospital closures, schools overrun and subsequent taxpayer burdens for current AND future ramifications is NOT a 'boon' to the economy.

I don't trust the reports, but the ones you speak of could be right.. but that's irrelevant because what I am saying is that the ones who come here and work and don't take handouts are helping the economy significantly. The fact that they come anywhere close to supporting the hospital and welfare system that WE setup for them shows just how valuable they are.

And for your analogy, I jaywalked once, its illegal - therefore I should go to jail. You are swinging in the air here, and it shows.

No, j walking isn't criminal. Smoking herb is considered criminal. You are calling them criminals for doing nothing but crossing an imaginary line to partake in voluntary exchanges, and using that as an excuse to treat them differently.

Illegals are a burden -- they are an economical, social, and in my eyes a cultural drain.

You believe in fighting the bigger battle of handouts and welfare, and that is noble & I agree, probably the best solution. BUT, its a solution soooo buried in special interests, social expectation and conditioning that I feel working on the more probable incremental solution is best ie: deportatation AND following/enforcement of the rule of law.

Well I hate to break it to you, but it would be a lot easier to take away their welfare than to kick them out. There are way too many people in California who disagree with you and would not have that.

 

[SimpleName]

You believe in fighting the bigger battle of handouts and welfare, and that is noble & I agree, probably the best solution. BUT, its a solution soooo buried in special interests, social expectation and conditioning that I feel working on the more probable incremental solution is best ie: deportatation AND following/enforcement of the rule of law.

*in regards to this encapement you always talk about as if its the anti-illegals achilles heal, I want to know where it was and the name it went by. I have lived in Los Angeles for a long time and such an encampment doesn't ring a bell.

It is hard nosed libertarian ideals that give us a bad image. People think we are trying to rip away people's lives and send them into deep financial pains because we so often focus on the end instead of the way to the end. A Constitutional America will never happen if we keep insisting on having everything our way RIGHT away. It has taken well over 200 years to get this country to the point it is now with welfare, social security, income taxes, medicare, bailouts, govt-owned corporations with Cap & Trade and universal healthcare on the way. It will take a VERY long time to pull these things back...probably much longer than it took to implement them. While cutting these programs would certainly eliminate a lot of these troubles, we have to right now focus on enforcing the immigration laws as best we can.

Illegals are a burden -- they are an economical, social, and in my eyes a cultural drain.

I'm not sure what you are saying here though. Do you mean illegals after the elimination of welfare or now? As of right now, it is easy to see they are a burden. But if you mean in a free market without social "get well" programs, I must REALLY disagree. In the latter case, despite them being illegal, they would only do hard work to grow our economy therefore bettering the lives of everyone. As long as they were adhering to other laws (pirating movies and whatnot), I can't see any reason why they would be burdens to our society.

 

[Lord Xar]

you really think it would be easier to round em all up and kick em out than it would be to change the laws?!


wow.

oh, you mean like the current laws that are ignored and not enforced. For me, it is easier to follow what is currently on the books than create new ones - especially new ones so extreme as cutting off the tit for all the sucklings.

Also, your leftist playbook on "rounding them up" is stupid. I am just advocating following the current laws. I am by no means saying we can't have new laws ie.. revisiting birthright citizenship and such, but I find your "putting words in my mouth" an ignorant rebuttal on your part.

 

[Lord Xar]

It is hard nosed libertarian ideals that give us a bad image. People think we are trying to rip away people's lives and send them into deep financial pains because we so often focus on the end instead of the way to the end. A Constitutional America will never happen if we keep insisting on having everything our way RIGHT away. It has taken well over 200 years to get this country to the point it is now with welfare, social security, income taxes, medicare, bailouts, govt-owned corporations with Cap & Trade and universal healthcare on the way. It will take a VERY long time to pull these things back...probably much longer than it took to implement them. While cutting these programs would certainly eliminate a lot of these troubles, we have to right now focus on enforcing the immigration laws as best we can.

? not sure why you quoted me. I feel the very same way.

I'm not sure what you are saying here though. Do you mean illegals after the elimination of welfare or now? As of right now, it is easy to see they are a burden. But if you mean in a free market without social "get well" programs, I must REALLY disagree. In the latter case, despite them being illegal, they would only do hard work to grow our economy therefore bettering the lives of everyone. As long as they were adhering to other laws (pirating movies and whatnot), I can't see any reason why they would be burdens to our society.

We are speaking in the now. Why would I forcast how I "would" feel? I will not address the rest of your statements since your assumption of "if" is incorrect. I think if we cut off all the "freebies" and "taxpayer subsidies" etc... then we'd be inline. We wouldn't have to content with 20+million illegal immigrants, perhaps a small fraction of that. I think we see eye to eye on this issue.

 

[Dunedain]

There are many different ways to combat illegal immigration...outsourcing our prisons to Mexico for instance...

 

[denison]

There are many different ways to combat illegal immigration...outsourcing our prisons to Mexico for instance...

try to get mexico to agree to that. america's already a big prison state to begin with, maybe you should move to Mexico.

 

[randolphfuller]

Libertarian ideals certainly require for the opeation of a free market economy the freedom of movement for capital, goods, and labor. Government expenditure is what makes the siruation difficult. If the current taxpayers of the United States are expected to educate, medicate, house, and in som circumstances feed and clothe anyone from Mexico or elsewhere who wishes to come here, then the situation becomes one in which intense resentment is bound to be felt. Anti-immigration forces, thoughout American history have had poor success politically because of the economic power of those benefit from the low wages which new immigrants are often willing to work. Anti-immigration politicians usually get nowhere. Witness poor Tom Tancredo. Among the few silly things I have heard Dr. Paul say is that the portion of the Constitution which provides that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States". is ambiguous and has been misinterpreted. don'tk know how it could be any clearer. The phras"and subject to the jurisdiction therof" could not possibly have been meant to apply to illegal immigrants because at that time there was no such thing as an"illegal immigrant". Deporting all of those without anchor babies will be difficult. It would barely scratch the surface of the problem. Would it be easier than repealing the provision for food stamps? Ask Newt Gingrich. There is no need to discuss the sort of uproar abolishing the public schools or access to emergency rooms would cause. The only honest course is to admit that there is no good answer. Pat Buchanan's advice to simply make life here for the illegals so unpleasant that theywould voluntarily return is as palatable as there is available, but of doubtful effectiveness. All effective courses appear to have insuperable political barriers.