Would "President Rothbard" Shut Down Flights to West Africa?

Occam's Banana

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
39,964
I'll trust the "wisdom of crowds" operating in a free market over the wisdom of government "experts" and ass-covering bureaucrats any day ...

Would "President Rothbard" Shut Down Flights to West Africa?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/would-president-rothbard-shut-down-flights-to-west-africa/
Ryan McMaken (21 October 2014)

Last week in The American Spectator, Emily Zanotti noted that the Obama administration refuses to intervene and shut down flights between West Africa and the US: “Yesterday, the White House reiterated that a ban on flights originating in outbreak countries is not on the table.” According to Zanotti, the rationale is that any disturbance of air travel would negatively impact West African economies.

Zanotti is skeptical of this rationale, saying:

… from a libertarian perspective: free markets are better able to pull people out of poverty than free money, and where we don’t allow capitalism to flourish we end up subsidizing with foreign aid. But if we were talking about President Murray Rothbard, I might consider that awfully practical and economically-focused excuse a real thing. But since this might officially be the first time the Obama Administration has talked their way out of something using unfettered capitalism as an excuse, I consider it suspect.​

The larger political point is fair enough, but really, would Rothbard ever make such a simple-minded argument as Zanotti suggests? I recognize that she’s just using Rothbard here as a stand-in for any hard-core free-market libertarian, but it’s highly unlikely that Rothbard would argue, “gee, let’s just let any diseased person fly into any airport anywhere because it would be good for the global economy.”

Key to understanding Rothbard on matters like this is that he identified himself as a “radical decentralist.” He did not make simplistic arguments like “free markets will solve all our problems” and leave it at that. Nor did he think that — like some sort of Marxist — that only a full-blown version of his vision could better achieve the ends he proposed. On the contrary, Rothbard knew that even a move in the direction of truly free markets, through radical decentralization, was better than the centralized state that dictates to all local governments and private owners everywhere. Centralization cuts off every possible solution except the few accepted by the “experts” of the centralized state, and thus ensures that , if the one “official” plan fails, that there is no plan B, or way to prevent the problem from spreading throughout the one, giant national jurisdiction.

In other words, the current lack of decentralization prevents local governments, airlines, airports, or even individual states from having any control over movements between states or into airports. Such matters are all dictated by a single source: the federal government. Were a decentralized approach allowed, however, individual states, cities, airlines, and airports would be responsible for their own safety precautions. Moreover, those making the decisions, i.e., those in charge of safety in Atlanta and the Atlanta airport (as just an example), would also be personally affected were the precautions to fail.

Also, were there a decentralized system, it is unlikely that (in our example) were the Atlanta airport to institute precautions (up to and including a full travel ban) that all other airports and states and cities would blindly accept that the precautions were successful. Instead, travelers from Atlanta to, say, Denver, would have to again be subject to checks of their origins, state of health, final destination, etc.

Now some libertarians will say “but that’s even worse than what we have now, where at least we have free movement once we’re in the US.” Now it’s true there may be more inconvenience in some cases, assuming one’s not already on some federal list (in which case your ability to travel by air is destroyed forever), but of course, this idea of some kind of one-stop-shop for disease control resembles the free market much less than does the decentralist model of redundancies and decentralized checks for disease control. In a totally-privatized society, each airport and local security operation would be likely to insist on checks for disease control. How this would be done exactly would be, as Walter Block often says “an entrepreneurial problem” to solve, but it would nonetheless be likely that travel safety would be more complex in a privately-owned world. And in our case, it would also be more likely to contain epidemics since a failure at one point in the system would not lead to a complete system failure as is likely under the current system.

What would “President Rothbard” do right now? Well, it’s reasonable to assume that President Rothbard would immediately lift all federal regulations prohibiting airlines and local airports from making their own decisions on controlling flights in and out, and who would be free to travel, and he would make it clear that localities, airlines, and airports are responsible for coordinating with other airports for security purposes. If disease were to spread within a particular state (say, Georgia) neighboring states would be free to cut off all travel from that state, or to cut off certain individuals from travel. President Rothbard would refuse to use the Justice Department to prosecute state governments that cut off travel of certain persons or of people overall. The edicts of the supreme court on the matter would be irrelevant since President Rothbard would refuse to send in the national guard and federal troops/police with assault rifles to force compliance with SCOTUS rulings.

In the wake of such a situation, much of the country would continue with business as usual, but some areas would be on high alert. Some areas would shut their borders to all neighboring states while some would be very laissez-faire depending on the likely threat level and risk-tolerance level of the local population. Moreover, each state, locality, airport, and port of entry would have to balance security with economic realities. This is a decision we make every day when we balance the risk of leaving the house with the need to make a living. Such decisions are not best left in the hands of far-away national “experts.”


"Would 'President Rothbard' Shut Down Flights to West Africa?" by Ryan McMaken is licensed under CC BY-NC-ND 4.0
 
Never heard of the madness of crowds then huh.

I recognize that she’s just using Rothbard here as a stand-in for any hard-core free-market libertarian, but it’s highly unlikely that Rothbard would argue, “gee, let’s just let any diseased person fly into any airport anywhere because it would be good for the global economy

How do stop a diseased person flying in without using force? Remember the "right" to travel and all of that? Heck under Rothbard you can't ever use force against a person's body. After you have proven that your particular Ebola came from that individual you then have to prove that they knew they were infectious, then that they infected you purposefully, then you can give them a fine which they will have to pay if they are subscribed to the same private defense network as you. You will have to get in line behind all the other people that person infected. If they aren't dead already. Because all of this will have to wait until the epidemic has burned itself out and the private courts have opened their doors again.

Its an extension of the basic problem New Zealand has for example. New Zealand maintains a strict quarantine on all sorts of diseases, not just ones affecting humans, and it allows the agricultural sector to thrive. There is no way to maintain that without non-voluntary inspections and border control. Once the disease is in the country its in, you can't sue the person who brought it in and make them un-infect the nations livestock or plants.
 
How do stop a diseased person flying in without using force? Remember the "right" to travel and all of that?

If I own a house, I am under zero obligation to let you sleep in it. If I own a road, I am under no obligation to let you use it. I'm also under no obligation to let you fly on my plane.

Heck under Rothbard you can't ever use force against a person's body.

Thinking you've one-upped Rothbard and the NAP, you've instead validated Rothbard's property based theory of rights. If a person is claiming you must let them on the airline or else, the person making the threat is the aggressor and is using offensive force (or, as you put it, 'using force against a person's body'). The person denying them use of the property, if force is required to do so, is entirely in the defensive and right to do so.

Arguments built on a strawman

Won't even bother with the last part of your post, since the basis of it was faulty.
 
If I own a house, I am under zero obligation to let you sleep in it. If I own a road, I am under no obligation to let you use it. I'm also under no obligation to let you fly on my plane.

Okay, not only is this 100% irrelevant but it also contradicts directly what a tonne of An-cap theorists think, but whatever.

Thinking you've one-upped Rothbard and the NAP, you've instead validated Rothbard's property based theory of rights. If a person is claiming you must let them on the airline or else, the person making the threat is the aggressor and is using offensive force (or, as you put it, 'using force against a person's body'). The person denying them use of the property, if force is required to do so, is entirely in the defensive and right to do so.

The Rothbard Government owns the airlines? The Airlines are quite happy to fly ebola ridden people all over the world. They are not obviously Ebola ridden when the airline delivers them, so the airline has no culpability. This is not about ebola carriers forcing their way onto airlines.

So, again, how would you create a national quarantine if even one airline operator would rather take the passengers money?

Won't even bother with the last part of your post, since the basis of it was faulty.

Or rather you will ignore that problem entirely waving hands in the air and claim faulty logic without even beginning to answer the question of how to enforce a national biological quarantine, which states are currently effective at, under an An-cap system. Just like everyone else, because you don't have an answer.
 
Last edited:
Okay, not only is this 100% irrelevant but it also contradicts directly what a tonne of An-cap theorists think, but whatever.

Anarcho-capitalists don't believe in property rights? I'm sorry, that's the funniest thing I've heard all month.
 
Anarcho-capitalists don't believe in property rights? I'm sorry, that's the funniest thing I've heard all month.

Oh they certainly do. But its that definition of terms that An-caps get you on. Property Rights are extremely narrowly defined. What counts as property varies from one an-cap to the next. What property rights mean also varies. For example, bodies of water, virgin forest, airspace, RF frequency, IP..... none can be property in An-Cap land, well most of the time, so property rights for them as we know and love don't exist. Some an-cap theories allow for various ones to get included but this generally leads to massive inconsistencies. Also *who* has property rights is also very narrowly defined. Children, the unborn, the recently deceased, none of them have property rights, among others. Again this varies from theorist to theorist.

It's still irrelevant to the point of creating universal quarantines without force when people are happy to use their own property which they privately own to break the quarantine.

A 'President Rothbard' would have no mechanism to shut down travel from West Africa.
 
Last edited:
Oh they certainly do. But its that definition of terms that An-caps get you on. Property Rights are extremely narrowly defined. What counts as property varies from one an-cap to the next. What property rights mean also varies. For example, bodies of water, virgin forest, airspace, RF frequency, IP..... none can be property in An-Cap land, well most of the time, so property rights for them as we know and love don't exist. Some an-cap theories allow for various ones to get included but this generally leads to massive inconsistencies. Also *who* has property rights is also very narrowly defined. Children, the unborn, the recently deceased, none of them have property rights, among others. Again this varies from theorist to theorist.

It's still irrelevant to the point of creating universal quarantines without force when people are happy to use their own property which they privately own to break the quarantine.

A 'President Rothbard' would have no mechanism to shut down travel from West Africa.

Well, this is true for any label. But for the record, all mentioned pieces are noncontroversial. House, road (= land), plane.

But as for your second point, that is okay. Ancap (and thus, natural) rights shouldn't be stripped, out of fear. Whether warranted or not.
 
Well, this is true for any label. But for the record, all mentioned pieces are noncontroversial. House, road (= land), plane.

You just don't understand. While those things are true of any label, they only count against an-caps.

That's why we need a State to forcibly impose one arbitrary system upon everyone.

(Well, okay, maybe not arbitrary - say, rather, "one system that serves the needs & desires of the elites who run the State" ...)

Also, you must always keep in mind that any successes by the State (in maintaining roads or enacting quarantines or what-have-you) are to be regarded as proof of the superiority of State coercion (while any failures are to be disregarded).

Likewise, any possible or imaginable failures under Statelessness (in maintaining roads or enacting quarantines or what-have-you) are to be regarded as proof of the inferiority of Statelessness (while any possible or imaginable successes are to be dismissed as fantasy).
 
Well, this is true for any label. But for the record, all mentioned pieces are noncontroversial. House, road (= land), plane.

The hell they are. The least controversial is the plane, and mostly because the needs of modern air travel are hardly addressed in An-cap work so far, beyond replacing the ATC with private systems (that are optional to adhere too).

But as for your second point, that is okay. Ancap (and thus, natural) rights shouldn't be stripped, out of fear. Whether warranted or not.

Exactly. When the only way to protect your property rights is with force, but that force has to be projected in a nebulous blanket in such a way that its doesn't involve you property, you have no property rights. You have no rights under An-cap to prevent permanent biological contamination of your property. Even when such steps are relatively non-intrusive and proven to be effective.
 
Last edited:
You just don't understand. While those things are true of any label, they only count against an-caps.

That's why we need a State to forcibly impose one arbitrary system upon everyone.

(Well, okay, maybe not arbitrary - say, rather, "one system that serves the needs & desires of the elites who run the State" ...)

Also, you must always keep in mind that any successes by the State (in maintaining roads or enacting quarantines or what-have-you) are to be regarded as proof of the superiority of State coercion (while any failures are to be disregarded).

Likewise, any possible or imaginable failures under Statelessness (in maintaining roads or enacting quarantines or what-have-you) are to be regarded as proof of the inferiority of Statelessness (while any possible or imaginable successes are to be dismissed as fantasy).

Any successes of the state are equally to be disregarded? Critical thinking should allow one to evaluate things objectively, and to seek to improve upon the ideas one is working with.

Before enforcing ones definitions of what is and is not coercion upon a populace (which is what the private courts would be doing), its always good to check the premises.
 
Last edited:
Any successes of the state are equally to be disregarded?

No, they are not - and I have in no way said (or even implied) that they should be.
States are demonstrably able to successfully do things like build roads or enforce quarantines.
I reject statism - but NOT because I imagine that states are unable to build roads or enforce quarantines.

You, however, have proferred as dispositive an a posteriori example of state success (New Zealand) and a priori assertions of (the alleged necessity of) stateless failures - while making no account of any state failures. This "stacking of the deck" on your part is what my remarks were aimed at. If (as you have represented) we are to reject statelessness because of (the possibility of) its failures, then why are we not also to reject statism for the same reason?

Critical thinking should allow one to evaluate things objectively, and to seek to improve upon the ideas one is working with.

Critical thinking and objectivity involve attempting to understand what others have actually said - rather than choosing interpretations convenient to one's own position by, for example, suggesting ignorance (post #2) or hypocrisy (post #11) on the part of one's interlocutors.

Furthermore, if you were objective enough to be able to see past the Rothbardian/NAP/an-cap bug you have up your nose, you would have realized that the OP article has nothing to do with an-cappery or statelessness (let alone the bizarrely ridiculous strawman scenario you presented in post #2). McMaken's article is explicitly and rather clearly concerned with decentralization - and with the sole exception of his passing remark about a "totally-privatized society". his discussion, commentary and hypotheticals are offered exclusively within the context of a statist system. (But, hey, the red flag of "Rothbard" was waved, so the appropriately "objective" response of a "critical thinker" is to just ignore what was actually said and charge away at an-caps with absurd mischaracterizations, of course ...)
 
Last edited:
Back
Top