Why federal agents (like ICE) have beyond qualified immunity and how to fix it.

[jmdrake]

This is something that everyone should be on board with, even @Anti Federalist. And @Brian4Liberty, this is why those Senators are RIGHT to be concerned about troops following "illegal orders" and you should be too! Today it's ICE getting away with abusing black and brown people, citizen or not. In 2029 it could easily be a Democrat abusing power in the exact same way against gun owners or "conservatives" (I put that in quotes because I'm not sure conservatives exist anymore) or any other disfavored group by the next regime.

 

[unknown]

WTF

 

[Anti Federalist]

This is something that everyone should be on board with, even @Anti Federalist. And @Brian4Liberty, this is why those Senators are RIGHT to be concerned about troops following "illegal orders" and you should be too! Today it's ICE getting away with abusing black and brown people, citizen or not. In 2029 it could easily be a Democrat abusing power in the exact same way against gun owners or "conservatives" (I put that in quotes because I'm not sure conservatives exist anymore) or any other disfavored group by the next regime.

They are going to do that regardless.

They already have been doing that.

 

[PAF]

They are going to do that regardless.

They already have been doing that.

So that makes it ok and no reason to complain, yet you have 469 thousand hits in your other thread.

Admit it, you're a-o-k with the agenda. Your posting habits at least confirm that from what I can see.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

And @Brian4Liberty, this is why those Senators are RIGHT to be concerned about troops following "illegal orders" and you should be too!

I am. Who said I wasn't?

Like the Police, ICE has done some unconstitutional things. Each incident has to be evaluated on it's own merit.

And this is no surprise. Create an environment where crime is rampant, law enforcement in turn must be ramped up, with every public/police encounter having a possibility of an illegal, unconstitutional or unethical action.

And that is what they want. That is the goal of anarcho-tyranny. And while Trump and ICE are either being useful or are willing participants in the action-reaction charade, it is the left that are the main drivers of the crime that pretty much always results in more police action.

Massive illegal immigration, big city crime, a broken justice system that lets real criminals walk and puts political resisters in jail are all driven by the left. Starting with George Soros types who provide money and direction, all the way down to local revolutionary communists and leftist DAs and Judges.

And the "Seditious 6" are a part of the malevolent plan.

 

[Anti Federalist]

So that makes it ok and no reason to complain, yet you have 469 thousand hits in your other thread.

Admit it, you're a-o-k with the agenda. Your posting habits at least confirm that from what I can see.

I've been complaining for 45 years.

Overall, it has done nothing.

My concerns lie elsewhere now.

 

[jmdrake]

I am. Who said I wasn't?

Good. Then be sure to let those Senators you called out on X for telling troops they should resist illegal orders that you actually support them.

Like the Police, ICE has done some unconstitutional things. Each incident has to be evaluated on it's own merit.

And this is no surprise. Create an environment where crime is rampant, law enforcement in turn must be ramped up, with every public/police encounter having a possibility of an illegal, unconstitutional or unethical action.

And that is what they want. That is the goal of anarcho-tyranny. And while Trump and ICE are either being useful or are willing participants in the action-reaction charade, it is the left that are the main drivers of the crime that pretty much always results in more police action.

Massive illegal immigration, big city crime, a broken justice system that lets real criminals walk and puts political resisters in jail are all driven by the left. Starting with George Soros types who provide money and direction, all the way down to local revolutionary communists and leftist DAs and Judges.

And the "Seditious 6" are a part of the malevolent plan.

You know when the DC murder rate was the lowest? When Obama was president! (Thanks @Anti Federalist for posting the stats showing this some months ago). The murder rate in DC was already trending down before the National Guard was brought it. And in other "Democrat run cities" (Birmingham and Baltimore for example), the murder rate has dramatically dropped without it.

As for massive immigration, per capita crime in Springfield Ohio went down after the 20,000 Haitians MAGA was complaining about moved in. So I don't believe this has anything to do with crime. This latest attack wasn't even crime. It was most likely false flag terrorism.

 

[jmdrake]

They are going to do that regardless.

They already have been doing that.

Trump is giving them more precedent to do even worse than they did before. It's just like Trump's bump fire stock ban morphed into Biden's pistol brace ban. The "Well the other side is doing it/going to do it anyway" position is ridiculous. I caught hell from my own community for calling out Obama's excesses.

 

[Occam's Banana]

And the "Seditious 6" are a part of the malevolent plan.

My own impression of the so-called "Seditious 6" is that they are being factual without being truthful.

I doubt they are nearly as bothered by the prospect of "illegal orders" as they are by the prospect of not being on the "side" that is issuing such orders.

 

[jmdrake]

My own impression of the so-called "Seditious 6" is that they are being factual without being truthful.

I doubt they are nearly as bothered by the prospect of "illegal orders" as they are by the prospect of not being on the "side" that is issuing such orders.

You know what? I COUNT on Republicans to be against lawbreaking by Democrats and Democrats to be against law breaking by Republicans. It's not sedition to be against unlawful orders. It's patriotic duty. When Obama did a fraction of what Trump is doing now I was against it.

 

[PAF]

I am. Who said I wasn't?

Like the Police, ICE has done some unconstitutional things. Each incident has to be evaluated on it's own merit.

No it doesn't. It's all pieces of the same puzzle.

And this is no surprise. Create an environment where crime is rampant, law enforcement in turn must be ramped up, with every public/police encounter having a possibility of an illegal, unconstitutional or unethical action.

And that is what they want. That is the goal of anarcho-tyranny. And while Trump and ICE are either being useful or are willing participants in the action-reaction charade, it is the left that are the main drivers of the crime that pretty much always results in more police action.

Massive illegal immigration, big city crime, a broken justice system that lets real criminals walk and puts political resisters in jail are all driven by the left. Starting with George Soros types who provide money and direction, all the way down to local revolutionary communists and leftist DAs and Judges.

And the "Seditious 6" are a part of the malevolent plan.

The republicans lick their chops every-step-of-the-way. See: Corporate Welfare, the Industrial Complexes, enabled by Manufactured Consent. Because otherwise, when the repubs control the house, the senate and the prez, they could easily stop the "leftist" policies. But they don't. And won't. Not without some other nefarious agenda.

 

[Occam's Banana]

You know what? I COUNT on Republicans to be against lawbreaking by Democrats and Democrats to be against law breaking by Republicans.

So do I. That was my point.

It's not sedition to be against unlawful orders. It's patriotic duty. When Obama did a fraction of what Trump is doing now I was against it.

As I previously stated, I don't think the so-called "Seditious 6", et al. really give a damn about "unlawful orders" - except when they can sugest or claim that such orders are coming from Republicans. And if prompted to do so, I would (with almost no exceptions but Thomas Massie and Rand Paul, or the like) say exactly the same thing with regard to Republicans opportunistically whining and bitching and pissing and moaning about "unlawful orders" from Democrats.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Good. Then be sure to let those Senators you called out on X for telling troops they should resist illegal orders that you actually support them.

Yeah, I'll do that for Lindsey Graham too, next time he accidently says something tangential to liberty because it furthers his agenda. Or not.

 

[jmdrake]

So do I. That was my point.



As I previously stated, I don't think the so-called "Seditious 6", et al. really give a damn about "unlawful orders" - except when they can sugest or claim that such orders are coming from Republicans. And if prompted to do so, I would (with almost no exceptions but Thomas Massie and Rand Paul, or the like) say exactly the same thing with regard to Republicans opportunistically whining and bitching and pissing and moaning about "unlawful orders" from Democrats.

That's the difference between you and me. I have nothing bad to say about people doing the right thing for the wrong reason while that particular fight is going on. There are plenty of opportunities to call out the hypocrisy when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

[jmdrake]

Yeah, I'll do that for Lindsey Graham too, next time he accidently says something tangential to liberty because it furthers his agenda. Or not.

Bottom line. Telling troops they don't have to obey illegal orders, especially at a time when illegal orders are clearly happening, is by definition NOT "sedition."

se·di·tion
/səˈdiSHən/
noun
conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.

Trump is not a monarch and if/when he or someone in his administration is giving an illegal order, at that moment that person is not truly representing the "state." So there are no "Seditious 6" in this instance.

 

[Occam's Banana]

That's the difference between you and me. I have nothing bad to say about people doing the right thing for the wrong reason while that particular fight is going on.

I agree. That is a difference between you and me. I do indeed have something bad to say about mealy-mouthed weasel hypocrites who say "the right thing" when it conveniently happens to suit their purposes (but who just as conveniently forget about saying "the right thing" when it doesn't).

As for actually "doing the right thing" (as distinct from merely saying it), let me know when that happens and is consistently applied across partisan boundaries. Then - and only then - will I be at all impressed. Until then, I see no reason to think it's anything but yet more empty, performative, dog-and-pony-show "outrage".

There are plenty of opportunities to call out the hypocrisy when the shoe is on the other foot.

That is also true - and more often than not, it's the aforementioned mealy-mouthed weasel hypocrites who "call out" the loudest when it suits them, but who are the most silent when it does not.

 

[jmdrake]

I agree. That is a difference between you and me. I do indeed have something bad to say about mealy-mouthed weasel hypocrites who say "the right thing" when it conveniently happens to suit their purposes (but who just as conveniently forget about saying "the right thing" when it doesn't).

As for actually "doing the right thing" (as distinct from merely saying it), let me know when that happens and is consistently applied across partisan boundaries. Then - and only then - will I be at all impressed. Until then, I see no reason to think it's anything but yet more empty, performative, dog-and-pony-show "outrage".



That is also true - and more often than not, it's the aforementioned mealy-mouthed weasel hypocrites who "call out" the loudest when it suits them, but who are the most silent when it does not.

We'd never have gotten the Epstein files released without the mealy-mouths weasel hypocrites. Regardless, telling soldiers that they don't have to obey illegal orders is not sedition no matter who says it.

 

[PAF]

We'd never have gotten the Epstein files released without the mealy-mouths weasel hypocrites. Regardless, telling soldiers that they don't have to obey illegal orders is not sedition no matter who says it.

"However, the law also allows the Justice Department to withhold files that it says could jeopardize an active federal investigation. That’s also longstanding Justice Department policy. Files can also be withheld if they’re found to be classified or if they pertain to national defense or foreign policy."

What to know about the Justice Department's Jeffrey Epstein files

The clock is ticking for the U.S. government to open up its files on Jeffrey Epstein. After months of rancor and recriminations, Congress has passed and President Donald Trump has signed legislation compelling the Justice Department to give the public everything it has on Epstein — and it has to be

apnews.com

 

[Occam's Banana]

We'd never have gotten the Epstein files released without the mealy-mouths weasel hypocrites.

The Epstein files were released? When did that happen? Did I miss something?

Regardless, telling soldiers that they don't have to obey illegal orders is not sedition no matter who says it.

I agree. It is not seditious - and I have never said (or even implied) that it is.

In fact, that is precisely why I previously referred to [bold emphasis added]

[...] the so-called "Seditious 6" [...]

- as in, "so-called - but not actually".

They're not being seditious. They're just being opportunistically mealy-mouthed outrage-mongers. I doubt they'd complain nearly as much (if at all) about "unlawful orders" (and how soldiers have a duty to refuse to obey such orders) if a Democrat administration had the balls to order soldiers to participate in, say, the confiscation of private citizens' firearms.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

So there are no "Seditious 6" in this instance.

Oh yes, there is a "Seditious Six".

If Trump is good at anything, it's at hyperbolic labels. Your reaction to that label is proof enough.

Just ask "little Marco Rubio". Slotkin will be thanking Trump at some point...