Wal-Mart undercutting practises

ian_co

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So today I was discussing free market competition and while I was discussing Standard Oil, my friend brought up Wal-Mart even though he knew it was not a monopoly. He brought up the practice where Wal-Mart, due to it's large net profit, is able to maintain a barrier for new competition because they are able to undercut their prices to actually cost them more than they profit and outlast competition only to raise the price again.

I asked if he could provide evidence for that but he was unable to give an example, but it was important because I still considered the reasoning behind it. I also brought up that Wal-Mart is still forced under market forces to maintain low prices but I felt unsatisfied with this answer.

I know government intervention does not increase competition, but what are your thoughts about such practices and it's relation to the free market in providing competition?
 
It is a short sighted practice. What happens if the competition digs in long term? You will end up wasting money. This is how Dow Chemicals forced out German Cartel from US. He bought up their cheap chemicals and sold it in germany at a profit.
 
He brought up the practice where Wal-Mart, due to it's large net profit, is able to maintain a barrier for new competition because they are able to undercut their prices to actually cost them more than they profit and outlast competition only to raise the price again.

Your friend is right, at least in theory. And undercutting isn't the only reason why a monopoly can exist for a long time. A monopoly may not last forever, but it's entirely plausible that if an industry has enough barriers to entry like startup capital costs and regulations to comply with, and the company has significant name brand recognition, undercuts competition as you mentioned, and makes deals with suppliers to keep competitors out, a company could dominate the market for decades if not longer. Collusion is also a possibility. A company may not technically be a monopoly either, but they own such a large percent of industry sales that they are one for all intents and purposes.

On the other hand, I don't think that under monopoly status, the company automatically has free reign to raise prices to the moon. There is always the threat that if a company hikes prices too high, the profit incentive for other monolithic corporations with money to burn to step into that market to try to capture some of the market share will outweigh the costs and risk of them doing so. The end result is that in a so-called monopolized industry, a company is able to enjoy a large profit margin while cornering the market on sales without threat of competition for a significant length of time. I like to think of a company's profit margin being a function of all of the factors mentioned in the paragraph above like barriers to entry, name brand recognition, regulations etc. Add enough of these together, and a company can scoop up a sizeable profit margin in its industry without much fear of competition - which for consumers means significantly higher prices than would be expected if that industry was not more or less monopolized.
 
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Low prices are good, not bad.

agreed. the hypocrisy of people blaming Wal Mart for giving most Americans good prices, while saying nothing about Apple, which services less than 10% of all Americans with overpriced products, and was at one recent point, the most valuable company in the US. Corporations are measured by who they put out of business, rather than how much money they make or how many people they serve.
 
There are 2 kinds of monopolies.. Forced monopolies (created by government) and monopolies created because people CHOOSE that company over the rest. If a store drives out competition in a community because everyone goes to that store due to it being better than the rest, or can provide cheaper prices due to high efficiency, then how is that a bad thing? What alternative does your friend propose, the government come in, put a gun to the store owner's head and make them raise their prices? What point does that serve when everyone obviously loves this store and chooses to go there?
 
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There are 2 kinds of monopolies.. Forced monopolies (created by government) and monopolies created because people CHOOSE that company over the rest. If a store drives out competition in a community because everyone goes to that store which is better than the rest, or can provide cheaper prices due to high efficiency, then how is that a bad thing?

yeah, how is it a bad thing, I wonder.
 
Actually Wal Mart now is not the lowest cost anymore. My parents use to shop at walmart, but now buy from dollar general because the same food supplies are cheaper there.

The point is that walmart could only stay the lowest priced for so long. If they stayed lowest price for too long they would start losing money. The market always has a way of working things out.
 
There was a very interesting article about this years ago on fastcompany. It shows how Walmart uses their huge buying power to dictate pricing to vendors and forces companies to use the cheapest labor possible - mostly overseas obviously - simply because that's the only way to hit their price points. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html?page=0,1
 
Actually Wal Mart now is not the lowest cost anymore. My parents use to shop at walmart, but now buy from dollar general because the same food supplies are cheaper there.

The point is that walmart could only stay the lowest priced for so long. If they stayed lowest price for too long they would start losing money. The market always has a way of working things out.

and watch the people say "yeah, so now there's incentive to introduce new competitors" as if its always easy.
 
When a company as great as WalMart emerges on the scene, the other players in the industry have got to be on their A game to compete. WalMart has driven many stores out of business, because they offered the superior choice to the consumer.

If WalMart actually uses it's superior positioning to offer products at a *loss* to consumers, they can only maintain that pricing for a finite period of time. They might drive a competitor out of business, but they'll eventually have to raise their prices to continue operations. That gives someone else an opportunity to compete again, and in the meantime the consumers haven't suffered one bit. The other business that couldn't compete has suffered, but that's the risk you take when you engage in fair competition. Some people win, other people lose, but society always benefits. Attempting to rig a system where nobody loses always leads to everybody losing over the long haul.

Now imagine if the regulatory and tax burden were less. WalMart's competitors might be able to afford a stronger response to WalMart's consistently low prices. All that time, energy and money spent paying off the government would instead be channeled into providing better quality products at lower prices for the consumer, because refusal to engage WalMart in honest competition would spell demise.

Ultimately, wherever WalMart has engaged their competitors in tough competition, the consumer has benefited enormously.

A very good analogy exists in the technology sector: Back in the 90's everyone and their grandma used Netscape as their internet browser. It was superior to anything else on the market, and you could have your own fully functional copy for a meager $30. Microsoft was floundering on the web, and so they offered their competing browser Internet Explorer for *free.* They spent millions on development, advertising and distribution, but they never charged their customers a single cent.

Arguably, Internet Explorer was an inferior product to Netscape, but it didn't mater. Why spend $30 on something when you could get a competitor's product for free? Microsoft used its massive financial resources to drive Netscape out of business and establish themselves as the dominant browser company. Netscape lost, Microsoft won, but what did the consumers get? Free browsers.

Flash forward more than a decade later and browsers are *still* free, to this day. The companies who produce them found other means to raise revenue, by bundling products, engaging in targeted advertising, and promoting their search engines. Consumers today couldn't ever imagine *buying* a web browser, and competition is more robust in that sector than *ever*.

What happened? Microsoft, drunk with victory, got lax in keeping Internet Explorer up-to-date technologically, and began offering a poorer quality product. New competitors emerged. First it was Opera, then it was Mozilla Firefox (an offshoot of what used to be NetScape), and then Google offered up Chrome. Microsoft was unable to maintain its aggressive position in the market, unable to choke out all of their competitors, and now Internet Explorer is struggling to reattract users after having lost them. But the end result was a massive win for the consumer. The web browsers today kick ass, and we don't pay cent for them, all because the *evil* Microsoft engaged in *unfair* competition.

Oh, and by the way, WalMart still faces stiff competition from Fred Meyer, Target, and other national chain stores. We're nowhere near seeing a monopoly.
 
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Oh, and by the way, WalMart still faces stiff competition from Fred Meyer, Target, and other national chain stores. We're nowhere near seeing a monopoly.

where I live , I don't know what Fred Meyer is, and Target doesn't have half the products I can get at Wal Mart, luckily, WalMart is crowded and a bit far, so its not a tough choice.
 
where I live , I don't know what Fred Meyer is, and Target doesn't have half the products I can get at Wal Mart, luckily, WalMart is crowded and a bit far, so its not a tough choice.

Fred Meyer may be mostly a west coast operation. I haven't spent much time on the east cost.
 


A very good and true Documentary about Wal Mart! Wal-Mart: The High Cost Of Low Price is a feature length documentary that uncovers a retail giant's assault on families and American values. The film dives into the deeply personal stories and everyday lives of families and communities struggling to fight a Goliath. A working mother is forced to turn to public assistance to provide health care for her two small children. A Missouri family loses its business after Wal-Mart is given over $2 million to open its doors down the road. A mayor struggles to equip his first responders after Wal-Mart pulls out and relocates just outside the city limits. A community in California unites, takes on the giant, and wins! Producer/Director Robert Greenwald and Brave New Films take you on an extraordinary journey that will change the way you think, feel -- and shop.

Also another tidbit about Wal-Marx practices--They would take out insurance policies on people (without their knowledge) and upon their passing Wal-Marx would collect the benefit.

Source:
http://consumerist.com/2007/07/walm...on-employees-collected-after-their-death.html
 
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Fred Meyer may be mostly a west coast operation. I haven't spent much time on the east cost.

and I'm in California...I just looked, there is a few in my area, I guess I've just never heard people go there, thanks for the info.
 
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Oh, and by the way, WalMart still faces stiff competition from Fred Meyer, Target, and other national chain stores. We're nowhere near seeing a monopoly.
Excellent examples and +rep.
There's a Wal-Mart close by to me, and I can't stand the place.
It's a nightmare to get in and out of, the lines are about a quarter mile long at all times of day, and they don't have anything I want. I still check it out once in a while, but the shoes all suck, the electronics are all available online for the same price... the only thing I'll consciously go for is Winchester White Box, and Hoppes #9.

Target has a better lot, more register attendants, and overall less of a low-rent atmosphere. They protect my time and for that I'll happily give them the extra dollar (gasp) in return for not stealing 20 minutes of my life.

I don't buy food from Wal-Mart... that's asinine. We have Wegmanns here now, and while things aren't cheap there, they aren't cheap there either. Prices are competitive, and the people at Wegmanns actually love what they're doing. Wal-Mart could never compare with their wine selection, and I actually do have to buy gorgonzola cheese pretty regularly - I don't trust Wal-Mart to have that... I don't trust Wal-Mart even to know what that is.
Oh, and Wegmann's gets me in and out of the store quickly.

The people shopping at Wal-Mart obviously have jobs - I don't see the purpose in going there, when they could just put in an extra half hour, and have a couple extra dollars on top of what they'd have to pay some other store not to waste their time.
 
There was a very interesting article about this years ago on fastcompany. It shows how Walmart uses their huge buying power to dictate pricing to vendors and forces companies to use the cheapest labor possible - mostly overseas obviously - simply because that's the only way to hit their price points. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html?page=0,1

Thank you for bringing this up.

Walmart has several documented cases of forcing a manufacturer to sell them products at below the manufacturing costs required to make the product! Huffy was one. I think that Vassic pickle was another.

You can read about it here (PDF):
www.kuratrading.com/PDF/Walmart1.pdf

To China we go!
 
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If a company lowers prices they are accused of predatory pricing. If a company raises prices they are accused of price gouging. If a company maintains prices, they are accused of cartelizing.

I can't remember who said this, but it is true here.

A very good and true Documentary about Wal Mart! Wal-Mart: The High Cost Of Low Price is a feature length documentary that uncovers a retail giant's assault on families and American values.

Somehow, making money through voluntary exchange is an assault on American values now. The inefficient firms that lobby to get Wal-Mart banned from communities are supposed to be standing for "American values", by using government force in order to make a buck?

The film dives into the deeply personal stories and everyday lives of families and communities struggling to fight a Goliath.

Struggling to fight a company that provides low prices? The horror!

A working mother is forced to turn to public assistance to provide health care for her two small children. A Missouri family loses its business after Wal-Mart is given over $2 million to open its doors down the road. A mayor struggles to equip his first responders after Wal-Mart pulls out and relocates just outside the city limits. A community in California unites, takes on the giant, and wins! Producer/Director Robert Greenwald and Brave New Films take you on an extraordinary journey that will change the way you think, feel -- and shop.

Also another tidbit about Wal-Marx practices--They would take out insurance policies on people (without their knowledge) and upon their passing Wal-Marx would collect the benefit.

Why does any of this matter?
 
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When a company as great as WalMart emerges on the scene, the other players in the industry have got to be on their A game to compete. WalMart has driven many stores out of business, because they offered the superior choice to the consumer.

If WalMart actually uses it's superior positioning to offer products at a *loss* to consumers, they can only maintain that pricing for a finite period of time. They might drive a competitor out of business, but they'll eventually have to raise their prices to continue operations. That gives someone else an opportunity to compete again, and in the meantime the consumers haven't suffered one bit. The other business that couldn't compete has suffered, but that's the risk you take when you engage in fair competition. Some people win, other people lose, but society always benefits. Attempting to rig a system where nobody loses always leads to everybody losing over the long haul.

Now imagine if the regulatory and tax burden were less. WalMart's competitors might be able to afford a stronger response to WalMart's consistently low prices. All that time, energy and money spent paying off the government would instead be channeled into providing better quality products at lower prices for the consumer, because refusal to engage WalMart in honest competition would spell demise.

Ultimately, wherever WalMart has engaged their competitors in tough competition, the consumer has benefited enormously.

A very good analogy exists in the technology sector: Back in the 90's everyone and their grandma used Netscape as their internet browser. It was superior to anything else on the market, and you could have your own fully functional copy for a meager $30. Microsoft was floundering on the web, and so they offered their competing browser Internet Explorer for *free.* They spent millions on development, advertising and distribution, but they never charged their customers a single cent.

Arguably, Internet Explorer was an inferior product to Netscape, but it didn't mater. Why spend $30 on something when you could get a competitor's product for free? Microsoft used its massive financial resources to drive Netscape out of business and establish themselves as the dominant browser company. Netscape lost, Microsoft won, but what did the consumers get? Free browsers.

Flash forward more than a decade later and browsers are *still* free, to this day. The companies who produce them found other means to raise revenue, by bundling products, engaging in targeted advertising, and promoting their search engines. Consumers today couldn't ever imagine *buying* a web browser, and competition is more robust in that sector than *ever*.

What happened? Microsoft, drunk with victory, got lax in keeping Internet Explorer up-to-date technologically, and began offering a poorer quality product. New competitors emerged. First it was Opera, then it was Mozilla Firefox (an offshoot of what used to be NetScape), and then Google offered up Chrome. Microsoft was unable to maintain its aggressive position in the market, unable to choke out all of their competitors, and now Internet Explorer is struggling to reattract users after having lost them. But the end result was a massive win for the consumer. The web browsers today kick ass, and we don't pay cent for them, all because the *evil* Microsoft engaged in *unfair* competition.

Oh, and by the way, WalMart still faces stiff competition from Fred Meyer, Target, and other national chain stores. We're nowhere near seeing a monopoly.
+1
 
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