There's a flaw in deregulating corporations

Xhin

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I, like almost everyone at this board, agree that government-imposed regulation harms the market. Deregulating the banks would prevent recessions, deregulating the medical industry would make health care less expensive, etc. Consumers should rely on personal responsibility rather than government intervention.

The problem I see is what happens when a national/international corporation out-competes local businesses to the point of them having a monopoly over the market, or conspire with other corporations towards price-fixing, etc. When this happens, you can no longer make the argument "Well they should shop somewhere else", or "Well, they should work somewhere else" because that "somewhere else" has been out-competed by a larger corporation.

I can't see a way around this other than the government regulating large corporations. Any help?
 
There is no flaw. If government regulations don't exist to restrict entry into an industry then there will always be competition, unless the monopoly just continues to serve the customer with the lowest prices and best service forever, which I can't see anyone complaining about, even if it keeps the competition at bay.
 
In a TRUE free market economy there is no such thing as a monopoly. Only the government creates monopolies. As long as there are little/no regulations competition with always come about.
 
Like Gold and Narrow have said, there is no such thing as a monopoly in a Free Market.

The myth that corporate size dominates is disproven by Wallmart being beaten by swifter, fleeter, better servicing locals. Size creates necessary bureaucracy and middle management that drains their advantages not found in local companies,.
 
Corporations themselves don't pose much of a threat. It's when they buy influence in the government that they pose a threat. Here's an interesting paper on the subject: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=873507
[FONT=Myriad Roman, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif;]Abstract: [/FONT] [FONT=Myriad Roman, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif;]Organizational law empowers firms to hold assets and enter contracts as entities that are legally distinct from their owners and managers. Legal scholars and economists have commented extensively on one form of this partitioning between firms and owners: namely, the rule of limited liability that insulates firm owners from business debts. But a less-noticed form of legal partitioning, which we call "entity shielding," is both economically and historically more significant than limited liability. While limited liability shields owners' personal assets from a firm's creditors, entity shielding protects firm assets from the owners' personal creditors (and from creditors of other business ventures), thus reserving those assets for the firm's creditors. Entity shielding creates important economic benefits, including a lower cost of credit for firm owners, reduced bankruptcy administration costs, enhanced stability, and the possibility of a market in shares. But entity shielding also imposes costs by requiring specialized legal and business institutions and inviting opportunism vis-a-vis both personal and business creditors. The changing balance of these benefits and costs helps explain the evolution of legal entities across time and societies. To both illustrate and test this proposition, we describe the development of entity shielding in four historical epochs: ancient Rome, the Italian Middle Ages, England of the 17th-19th centuries, and the United States from the 19th century to the present.

IIRC, c4ss.org has some stuff on this subject as well. Not sure about mises.org.
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Corporations are an effect of "state" power.

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I, like almost everyone at this board, agree that government-imposed regulation harms the market. Deregulating the banks would prevent recessions, deregulating the medical industry would make health care less expensive, etc. Consumers should rely on personal responsibility rather than government intervention.

The problem I see is what happens when a national/international corporation out-competes local businesses to the point of them having a monopoly over the market, or conspire with other corporations towards price-fixing, etc. When this happens, you can no longer make the argument "Well they should shop somewhere else", or "Well, they should work somewhere else" because that "somewhere else" has been out-competed by a larger corporation.

I can't see a way around this other than the government regulating large corporations. Any help?
It's actually quite the opposite. Government grants corporations major advantages over small business, like extremely low tax rates, subsidies, etc.
 
SC State Senator, Tom Davis dropping some knowledge on a Think Progress reporter:



And a classic Alan Grayson vs Citi CEO exchange:

 
I have on occasion pondered how large these large corporations would be if not for the federal reserve and the easy credit policies. Would they have had the cash to expand and squeeze out the competition? I kinda doubt it...
 
This is the best answer I have seen, allow fraud laws to be enforced against the people who commit crimes, not against the legal entities.

 
I have on occasion pondered how large these large corporations would be if not for the federal reserve and the easy credit policies. Would they have had the cash to expand and squeeze out the competition? I kinda doubt it...
I doubt it too. This reminds me a bit of the quote in your sig. Fords are made of mostly Mexican steel, IIRC. ;) :D
 
The problem is with Corporations - they are an unfair advantage in the free-market system. Get rid of corporations, then you have no need for regulations, a free-market capitalistic system is more successful than corporatism.
 
I, like almost everyone at this board, agree that government-imposed regulation harms the market. Deregulating the banks would prevent recessions, deregulating the medical industry would make health care less expensive, etc. Consumers should rely on personal responsibility rather than government intervention.

The problem I see is what happens when a national/international corporation out-competes local businesses to the point of them having a monopoly over the market, or conspire with other corporations towards price-fixing, etc. When this happens, you can no longer make the argument "Well they should shop somewhere else", or "Well, they should work somewhere else" because that "somewhere else" has been out-competed by a larger corporation.

I can't see a way around this other than the government regulating large corporations. Any help?


Monopoly can only exist with government issuing it (itself being a monoply). Corporations, like individuals, seek government to deliver this power in various forms for their own benefit. It is power to use violence to crush your competitors completely ignoring the fact that competition is entirely legal and moral.
 
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I have no problem with corporations or any other collective - as long as they are treated as such, distinguished from real people, and never conflated with individuals, or granted rights as if they were people.

In my mind, this is a similar principle to competing currencies. Corporations, as fictions of the state, really can be controlled, regulated, and even taxed out of existence. There is nothing wrong with that in my mind. But that should NEVER apply to people.

One of the most aggravating problems people face in this regard is when they attack a law - a statute, regulation or even constitutional provision - and the courts will uphold the law on the basis that it could apply to corporations and other privileged entities.

There is one law that would do the trick, and end the problem once and for all. Declare once and for all, as a matter of law (preferably Constitutional) that individuals, who live and pursue their interests as a matter of right, are specifically PRECLUDED from being included in laws governing corporations. NO MIXING OF PEOPLE AND OTHER ENTITIES.

If the legislature wants to pass a law that applies to both individuals and corporations, it must do it TWICE. One law for one set of books reserved for privileged entities, another law for another set of books for people who have rights, and never the twain shall meet, be conflated, or confused one with the other.

That ends the playing games by all three branches of government, and gives the courts no fudge room in that regard - and no assumption of "implied consent" on behalf of people who are treated as corporate entities, having unknowingly waived rights, based on innocent behavior (got a license where one was not required as a matter of right).

Meanwhile, it would remove HUMAN SHIELDS from corporations and other entities that walk all the deliberately blurred lines and masquerade as people - with "rights".

If you did that, corporations would be at a natural disadvantage at all times. You can tax a corporation, which acts on privilege, at the pleasure of the state, out of existence. Not a real person, who acts as a matter of right, and not privilege. Whole different ballgame with them, and very, very narrow set of rules that could be applied - if they are the ONLY entities to which those particular laws may apply.



OH...and by the way...this is VERY easy to implement. Just clone the books to begin with. Duplicate them. One is reserved for the People, the other for OTHERS.

That opens up the books for Real Persons Only for new court challenges. That particular set of books would naturally erode by itself. Only the Corporate (OTHER/PRIVILEGED) set of laws would pretty much remain as they are.
 
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Jeez, I go to another thread for a couple hours and you guys already have two pages worth of replies.

If government regulations don't exist to restrict entry into an industry then there will always be competition, unless the monopoly just continues to serve the customer with the lowest prices and best service forever, which I can't see anyone complaining about, even if it keeps the competition at bay.

Yes, but as a larger entity, they're more capable of keeping prices low and service at high quality, especially if they outsource their actual production (and as a large entity they're more capable of doing so). The problem is that the capitalistic model falls apart when smaller entities are unable to compete, because then the company that has the monopoly can do whatever they want and people will still buy from them because there's nowhere else to go.

Only the government creates monopolies. As long as there are little/no regulations competition with always come about.

I think you're living in a dream world. Yes, I agree that the government can create monopolies, however in an unregulated market, monopolies can still emerge by virtue of being big enough (and therefore better since they have more minds working for them) to outcompete smaller local businesses.

The myth that corporate size dominates is disproven by Wallmart being beaten by swifter, fleeter, better servicing locals

Whaaaaaaat. Where do you live? Around here, Wal-mart has beaten not just local supermarkets into the ground, but also smaller corporations.

Size creates necessary bureaucracy and middle management that drains their advantages not found in local companies,.

But it also promotes think-tanks that innovate solely for the sake of company edge over other businesses.

Corporations themselves don't pose much of a threat. It's when they buy influence in the government that they pose a threat.

I agree with this as well, but it doesn't address my original point.

Government grants corporations major advantages over small business, like extremely low tax rates, subsidies, etc.

Again, I agree with that. By "market" I meant the economy in general, in terms of things like innovation and quality of life.

Would they have had the cash to expand and squeeze out the competition?

That's actually a good point. Giant companies are still able to squeeze out competitors in a free market though.

The problem is with Corporations - they are an unfair advantage in the free-market system. Get rid of corporations, then you have no need for regulations, a free-market capitalistic system is more successful than corporatism. .

Agree, however corporations will still form in a free market economy. I think the deal is that transportation and communication is a lot cheaper and easier than it was, say, in the 1800's. Local businesses thrived back then because the lack of fast transportation and communication made the creation of giant corporations impossible.

Monopoly can only exist with government issuing it (itself being a monoply). Corporations, like individuals, seek government to deliver this power in various forms for their own benefit. It is power to use violence to crush your competitors completely ignoring the fact that competition is entirely legal and moral.

Okay, you've given your belief, but you haven't supplied any evidence or actual reasoning.

I have no problem with corporations or any other collective - as long as they are treated as such, distinguished from real people

What, you don't believe Mitt Romney's right about corporations being people? :P

One of the most aggravating problems people face in this regard is when they attack a law - a statute, regulation or even constitutional provision - and the courts will uphold the law on the basis that it could apply to corporations and other privileged entities.

Can you give any examples? (No, I'm not attacking you, I genuinely want to see some examples so I can understand the rest of your post).
 
Agree, however corporations will still form in a free market economy.
No, they won't. A corporation is a special class of business that has to file papers of incorporation with the government in return for the special privileges. No government, no corporation.
 
You're right, MJU1983, that DID blow my mind. I especially liked the part where it said that representatives don't sign contracts fulfilling that they'll keep to their promises. GENIUS.

And yeah, I didn't realize the extent to which corporations are created by the State. That's a real eye-opener for me, thanks.
 
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