Stop Monsanto’s Secret Plan to Kill GMO Labeling Today

It means let the market decide.

That is nearly meaningless in practice when the markets are rigged.

Let farmers grow what the market demands.

If only it were that simple. People tend to allow the dishonest side of their personalities come forth when stakes and profits are perceived as high. The artificially established dependence aspect of these markets - captive markets in a sense - also taints the well. Perhaps we should let things go this way and let those people who are too lazy to do the diligence of assuring they are not poisoning themselves die of whatever maladies these toxic food-substitutes cause.

But if we are going to seriously consider the virtues of the free markets, and acknowledge that our current markets are heavily rigged, then the cycle of self-reinforcement of the established order needs to be broken. True free markets in a truly free land would directly necessitate the elimination of all corporate entities. No more veil of protection for anyone. You sell a product that kills people, you stand personally accountable.

Can't have it both ways. We are either free or we are something else.

And let the labels be optional, so people that don't care about it do not need to pay for it.

This only works when there are viable options. At this point, I would assess the food markets as providing insufficient options for people. This may be due to people's lazy stupidity. But it might also be the result of positive steps by the biggest players to eliminate competition.

Lobbying = we have a right to petition our government.

I am not convinced that this "lobby the government" thing has any place in a free land. All the lobbying - petitioning - appears mostly for special dispensations, rather than the redress of real grievances.
 
Afterall, aren't we being forced to consume food without knowing what we're eating?

In a sense, yes, we are.

Somebody is force feeding you food of unknown origin and content!?! Well who is this person? I think it should be stopped ASAP.

Not somebody - come on now, you cannot be that stupid, and I don't take you as disingenuous. I must therefore conclude you are being careless in your reasoning.

It is not someONE forcing us, but rather someTHING. That thing is "circumstance". We could go on all day about how we ought not have allowed ourselves to become so dependent upon the products of others in order to affect our means for basic survival on a day-by-day basis, but we will rather focus on the fact that we are here. Nobody in a NYC apartment is reasonably capable of providing his own foodstuffs such that he is independent of any manufacturer's products. That is the reality with which we live at this time. It may change at some point, but that is not likely to be the case for a very long time to come.

This dependence upon the product of third parties arose by whatever means and causes - call it laziness, necessity, what have you. But one thing that can be said that is beyond argument is that this rise was made possible in large part in NECESSARY part - by the attendant element of trust. I cannot overemphasize the central and utter significance of this factor. Without trust, the large food manufacturers would never have come to exist because nobody would have bought their wares. Trust is implicit with the very marketing of their products and they OWE us based on that. "We" gave them our trust and what arose from that circumstance is a new and altered reality where people no longer buy because they choose to (in the broader sense of "choice") but because they have no other means of providing themselves with most, if not all, of their daily sustenance. The trust that was once given based on a purely voluntary basis cannot be unilaterally discarded, disregarded, and violated once the modified circumstance that has lead to dependence arises, now effectively forcing people to come back for more.

An analog example: you get rid of your wood stove in favor of gas. The gas company, in the dead of the worst winter in history and seeing you are become utterly dependent upon their gas to survive the cold nights, increases your bill 100 times, threatening to cut off your fuel supply if you do not pony up. Applying your basic reasoning, the gas provider would be within his rights to do so, given the current general state of affairs WRT such arrangements. I hope that no explanation is necessary to make clear to you why this is NOT alright.

Listen, all kinds of corporations do things we don't like. The answer is to stop buying from them.
That is the simplistic, naïve answer. The practical answer is far more subtle and in some cases, complicated.

You appear to be ignoring the fact that where principles may be endlessly simple in their essences, there are times when their practical expression becomes difficult. Such difficulties do not invalidate the principles, but only confirm that implementation is not always a bunnies-and-light affair.

Not to force them, through the use of a government, to do things the way you want.

Your point is well taken, but I must also make it clear that here you speak in a vacuum. We do not live in that vacuum. The reality is that we have been painted into a corner. The fault is perhaps all our own, but just because "we" fucked up, it does not follow that we should be treated unjustly as the result. This shit happened - the circumstance of dependence, I mean - and we are responsible for it. But that does not mean we give a "corporation" the green light to further damage us. If nothing else, we might want to force this labeling thing pending a change in circumstance such that we have extricated ourselves from the web of dependence such that we then have real alternate choices. At the very least we must not be allowing the passage of bills that pretty well guarantee the large player's ability to continue to damage us with impunity.

You are here advocating free-market principles in a lopsided and decidedly unfree market, to be applied only by those who are the buyers. What you are advocating as a solution is actually a non-solution in this environment. Restore the markets to actual freedom and I would agree with you. Our markets are nowhere nearly free enough to allow for this strategy of yours to work. On top of that, legislation such as that under discussion further assures the position of companies such as Monstanto, allowing them to further constrict choice.

You say we should buy products that are labeled "non GMO". All fine and well, but what about all the attendant potential for "unfair" competition where companies such as Monsanto manage passage of bill that erect barriers to entry for those seeking to compete? What of those bills that might effectively ban such labeling? Shit like this happens ALL THE TIME. Subtle twists in language that seem innocent enough... until matters end up in courts and the judges render opinions and rulings that put the competition at distinct disadvantage in the best case and completely out of business in worse.

Your notions of free markets - my notions - are irrelevant in this world of rigged, mercantilist markets. So long as we are not in a free market circumstance, we cannot rely on the free choice of the consumer with any dependability because their choices are not, in fact, quite free enough to affect the sorts of change to which you refer.

Consider this: when the large banks and investment houses faced ruin in 2008, what result did we all get to enjoy? TARP, and other bailouts. Now, if as you suggest, we were able to get 180 million Americans to say "fuck you" to Monsanto and put them seriously on the ropes, do you really believe that Monstanto would not go on a rampaging campaign to criminalize all efforts to bring them down? People like this do not go quietly into the night.


Well, I had a lot more reply than this and the fucking piece of shit vBulletin software screwed me in the ass... again. Pardon me, but FUCK vBulletin.
 
That is nearly meaningless in practice when the markets are rigged.



If only it were that simple. People tend to allow the dishonest side of their personalities come forth when stakes and profits are perceived as high. The artificially established dependence aspect of these markets - captive markets in a sense - also taints the well. Perhaps we should let things go this way and let those people who are too lazy to do the diligence of assuring they are not poisoning themselves die of whatever maladies these toxic food-substitutes cause.

But if we are going to seriously consider the virtues of the free markets, and acknowledge that our current markets are heavily rigged, then the cycle of self-reinforcement of the established order needs to be broken. True free markets in a truly free land would directly necessitate the elimination of all corporate entities. No more veil of protection for anyone. You sell a product that kills people, you stand personally accountable.

Can't have it both ways. We are either free or we are something else.



This only works when there are viable options. At this point, I would assess the food markets as providing insufficient options for people. This may be due to people's lazy stupidity. But it might also be the result of positive steps by the biggest players to eliminate competition.



I am not convinced that this "lobby the government" thing has any place in a free land. All the lobbying - petitioning - appears mostly for special dispensations, rather than the redress of real grievances.

Eat organic and stuff labeled "GMO Free." But trying to use to government to make my food cost more for some "right to know" that has suddenly materialized out of thin air isn't freedom.
 
Eat organic and stuff labeled "GMO Free." But trying to use to government to make my food cost more for some "right to know" that has suddenly materialized out of thin air isn't freedom.

Well being that you love to stuff GMO down your gobbler--whenever you're not busy scheduling your next yummy vaccination--it would seem that you have little to worry about.
 
Eat organic and stuff labeled "GMO Free." But trying to use to government to make my food cost more for some "right to know" that has suddenly materialized out of thin air isn't freedom.

"Organic" label has been politically co-opted by large producers who refused to compete with actual organic producers that were beginning to take a goodly bite out of their market shares. "Organic" labels no longer mean anything, necessarily.

How do we know "non-GMO" labeling can be trusted? The GMO issue, taken in its broadest context, is enormous and almost impossibly subtle. A company can use the label and claim they did not know there was GMO in some of the ingredients of their products. This shit happens all the time and the claim is very plausible. Those who supply that producer could make the same claim. "oh, well, that was not supposed to happen..e we don't know how it could have... sorry, our bad and we won't do it again.
" Case closed.

Your solution is simplistic and in no way assures that one will not be eating things they do not want to eat.

The best answer is to roll your own, but this has become a practical impossibility for the vast majority of people. And even for those who do there are no reasonable assurances. GMO pollen flies with the rest. This has been a proven problem with corn crops. Farmer Al is two miles from a 100K acre agribusiness operation. The pollen from their corn is taken up by bees, who then hit his fields and guess what; Farmer Al's 500 acre corn field is now contaminated.

We could go on with more example of how this is bad juju all around, but methinks the point is made.

At this point, we do not know nearly enough to say that we are not playing Russian roulette with 5 loaded chambers. What an amusingly satisfying irony it would be to one day find that the 1% have doomed their own children through their blind and maliciously morbid greed.
 
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