Second Thoughts on Secession

[Galileo Galilei]

I was re-reading DiLorenzo's book 'The Real Lincoln' last night. In it, on page 50, he has a chart of the years that other nations ended slavery. By 1854, everyone in the Western Hemispere had ended slavery, except Brazil, Costa Rica, and Cuba.

So that means by 1860, individual liberty was a recognized natural right.

But the southern states that seceded did not allow the blacks to vote, and the blacks made up 45% of the population.

So the secession was not legal.

 

[TCE]

Secession is different from slavery. Just because the Confederate States of America violated a natural law, does not mean that everything they did was illegal. Secession was legal if they held a convention to unratify the Constitution in their state. Although, I have made the argument that Virginia held the right to secede at any point because of the clause in their Constitution allowing it.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I was re-reading DiLorenzo's book 'The Real Lincoln' last night. In it, on page 50, he has a chart of the years that other nations ended slavery. By 1854, everyone in the Western Hemispere had ended slavery, except Brazil, Costa Rica, and Cuba.

So that means by 1860, individual liberty was a recognized natural right.

But the southern states that seceded did not allow the blacks to vote, and the blacks made up 45% of the population.

So the secession was not legal.

I seem to recall that the North also prohibited blacks from voting at that time and that Northerners returned escaped slaves voluntarily. Besides that, slavery is a separate issue from secession entirely. Remember, the original 13 colonies seceded from Britain for reasons that had nothing to do with slavery (hint-check the DoI).

 

[Galileo Galilei]

I seem to recall that the North also prohibited blacks from voting at that time and that Northerners returned escaped slaves voluntarily.

The North didn't secede, remember?

Besides that, slavery is a separate issue from secession entirely. Remember, the original 13 colonies seceded from Britain for reasons that had nothing to do with slavery (hint-check the DoI).

When the 13 colonies seceded from Great Britian, individual liberty was not a recognized natural right. Slavery was still almost everywhere. Your comment has nothing to do with my post.

What I am saying is that by 1860, the Southern states were criminal rogue states, that ceased to have legal authority unless blacks were given individual liberty. Essentially, a state of anarchy had set in in the South, with no legal authority.

 

[TCE]

The North didn't secede, remember?




When the 13 colonies seceded from Great Britian, individual liberty was not a recognized natural right. Slavery was still almost everywhere. Your comment has nothing to do with my post.

What I am saying is that by 1860, the Southern states were criminal rogue states, that ceased to have legal authority unless blacks were given individual liberty. Essentially, a state of anarchy had set in in the South, with no legal authority.

Doesn't that make the modern day United States a modern day rogue state by that logic? That would make this entire country illegal.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The North didn't secede, remember?




When the 13 colonies seceded from Great Britian, individual liberty was not a recognized natural right. Slavery was still almost everywhere. Your comment has nothing to do with my post.

What I am saying is that by 1860, the Southern states were criminal rogue states, that ceased to have legal authority unless blacks were given individual liberty. Essentially, a state of anarchy had set in in the South, with no legal authority.

facepalm! This is just too much ignorance for me to deal with. I hope someone with more patience comes along to school you.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Doesn't that make the modern day United States a modern day rogue state by that logic? That would make this entire country illegal.

Make the case.

I don't recogize anything the federal government does, because they violate the Constitution to such an extent, that it is hard to tell if it exists anymore.

 

[TCE]

The North didn't secede, remember?




When the 13 colonies seceded from Great Britian, individual liberty was not a recognized natural right. Slavery was still almost everywhere. Your comment has nothing to do with my post.

What I am saying is that by 1860, the Southern states were criminal rogue states, that ceased to have legal authority unless blacks were given individual liberty. Essentially, a state of anarchy had set in in the South, with no legal authority.

The original Declaration of Independence stated that all of us had natural, God-given rights, period. So, if God gave them to us at birth, how could he bestow a new natural right in 1860?

 

[Acala]

But

The North didn't secede, remember?




When the 13 colonies seceded from Great Britian, individual liberty was not a recognized natural right. Slavery was still almost everywhere. Your comment has nothing to do with my post.

What I am saying is that by 1860, the Southern states were criminal rogue states, that ceased to have legal authority unless blacks were given individual liberty. Essentially, a state of anarchy had set in in the South, with no legal authority.

But because the Northern States were also violating natural rights, by your argument nothing the Union did was legal either. So essentially at the moment in time that slave-tolerant governments started violating natural law, they ceased to be legitimate governments at all and so the union dissolved on its own BEFORE the South seceded.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

facepalm! This is just too much ignorance for me to deal with. I hope someone with more patience comes along to school you.

Please be more specific in your comments.

 

[TCE]

Make the case.

I don't recogize anything the federal government does, because they violate the Constitution to such an extent, that it is hard to tell if it exists anymore.

Guns are banned in Morton Grove, Illinois. The Appellate Court has upheld that the city can legally do that. Defending oneself is a violation of a natural law. Because an entity representing the government has allowed the violation of this natural right, by your logic, this entire country is now a rogue state.

The Congress has had laws on the books banning certain types of free speech (Alien and Sedition Acts, etc.). Free speech is a natural right that the government has violated, therefore, we are a rogue country.

 

[TCE]

But because the Northern States were also violating natural rights, by your argument nothing the Union did was legal either. So essentially at the moment in time that slave-tolerant governments started violating natural law, they ceased to be legitimate governments at all and so the union dissolved on its own BEFORE the South seceded.

Ah, a point I had forgotten. In several states in the north, there were laws stating that blacks could not testify in court or couldn't sue a white man, I'm sure someone more versed in history could give the states/examples. So, the northern states were also violating individual liberty. In extension, every time a northern state returned a black slave to bondage in the south, they were aiding the process of stripping a man of his individual liberty. So, the north colluded with the south to strip an entire group of liberty, making the entire country at the time an illegal entity.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

The original Declaration of Independence stated that all of us had natural, God-given rights, period. So, if God gave them to us at birth, how could he bestow a new natural right in 1860?

The Declaration of Independence said it, but at the time, it only applied to white people.

The right of individual liberty was not recognized until much later when slavery was abolished.

The Declaration of Independence helped make this possible.

 

[FunkBuddha]

Not to mention that Union states such as Missouri, Kentucky and Delaware still had slavery throughout the Civil War. Even after the Emancipation Proclamation was signed these states were still allwed to keep their slaves. So by your logic, the Union was just as invalid as the Confederate States were.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Not to mention that Union states such as Missouri, Kentucky and Delaware still had slavery throughout the Civil War. Even after the Emancipation Proclamation was signed these states were still allwed to keep their slaves. So by your logic, the Union was just as invalid as the Confederate States were.

Those states didn't secede from the Union, although they were indeed rogue, criminal states.

But under duel sovereignty of the Constitution, the federal government was not a rogue state, as they did not have slavery in 1860.

 

[FunkBuddha]

I'm not sure I follow your logic nor do I get your point.

 

[1836er]

IMO the problem wasn't with the founders (or later the secession-era South) definition of "liberty;" they had that part down pretty good. The problem was with the founders definition of "men."

 

[pcosmar]

I'm not sure I follow your logic nor do I get your point.

I am not sure there is any logic to follow. The secession had nothing to do with slavery. That was not an issue till the end of the war.

The secession had to do with money, Banks in particular, and unfair practices. It was kicked off by the Federal attack on a southern fort.

 

[1000-points-of-fright]

IMO the problem wasn't with the founders (or later the secession-era South) definition of "liberty;" they had that part down pretty good. The problem was with the founders definition of "men."

I've often thought the same thing.

 

[james1906]

Secession is pretty much legal is the secessionists are successful. There's a handful of de facto countries in the world where other nations do not recognize them, but since they operate as independent entities, the secession was valid.